Marine build-orders problematic!
weezl
Join Date: 2008-07-04 Member: 64557Members, Reinforced - Shadow
Join Date: 2008-07-04 Member: 64557Members, Reinforced - Shadow
<div class="IPBDescription">the two i've tried are both dead-end (literally)</div>i've been comming for marines a number of times now and see some really frustrating problems...
the marines have two dead-end strategies (build-orders), centered around extremely resource tight play while defending MS
abbrevations:
M: Marines
A: aliens
A1: Armor 1
W1: Weapons 1
C: Carbon
AA: Advanced Armory
MS: Marine Start
CC: Command Center
IP: Infantry Portal
RT: Resource Tower
TP: Tech-Point
#1. starting with turtling MS
cos spreading out too thin makes the one IP very vulnerable.
at the same time A can expand freely and grow strong,
while M only have the basic tech to combat them (rifle/sg + A1, W1).
it becomes more and more impossible to leave base, and to protect it.
#2. trying to get the only salvation: flamer
get a second CC up after: 1 IP, second RT, and maybe armory. then upgrade MS CC (rec exp CC).
throw in A1 somewhere after CC upg starts.
now marines have to turtle against lerks and skulks,
while getting CC_L2, AA, addon, flamer tech, second armory (cos addon bugs up the AA)
with 2 RT the budget is too tight to get: 2nd IP, any sentries, any player upgrades, sg,
all while pressure from aliens increases as in the prev. scenario.
a BIG part of the problem is ofc that it's so hard to hit aliens reliably.
but here's some more:
after some time spikes deal MASSIVE amounts of dmg to both players and structures, and can be fired seemingly non-stop.
as comm i have to fix this, fix that with MAC:s, who also get targeted.
lerks can hide and shoot spikes doing very effective herass.
the snipe spike is WAY imba imo, as lerks can peek out and snipe sentrys.
this is ofc when both teams playing are competent.
this will probably change when they fix the "no-IP bug" (M should start with 1 IP already up),
but then it's just running straight to a TP, building CC, upgrading home CC, rec exp CC, #2 with a 20 carbon advance.
(30C advance if "AA addon bug" gets fixed and second armory isn't needed cos of e.g. gas spam).
this is imo the deeper/fundamental underlying cause that UWE needs to do some pondering about:
A don't risk losing early game at all - not like M can easily take the hive down.
while M rely on ONE SINGLE IP - which goes down to a single skulk in ~20 secs.
the marines have two dead-end strategies (build-orders), centered around extremely resource tight play while defending MS
abbrevations:
M: Marines
A: aliens
A1: Armor 1
W1: Weapons 1
C: Carbon
AA: Advanced Armory
MS: Marine Start
CC: Command Center
IP: Infantry Portal
RT: Resource Tower
TP: Tech-Point
#1. starting with turtling MS
cos spreading out too thin makes the one IP very vulnerable.
at the same time A can expand freely and grow strong,
while M only have the basic tech to combat them (rifle/sg + A1, W1).
it becomes more and more impossible to leave base, and to protect it.
#2. trying to get the only salvation: flamer
get a second CC up after: 1 IP, second RT, and maybe armory. then upgrade MS CC (rec exp CC).
throw in A1 somewhere after CC upg starts.
now marines have to turtle against lerks and skulks,
while getting CC_L2, AA, addon, flamer tech, second armory (cos addon bugs up the AA)
with 2 RT the budget is too tight to get: 2nd IP, any sentries, any player upgrades, sg,
all while pressure from aliens increases as in the prev. scenario.
a BIG part of the problem is ofc that it's so hard to hit aliens reliably.
but here's some more:
after some time spikes deal MASSIVE amounts of dmg to both players and structures, and can be fired seemingly non-stop.
as comm i have to fix this, fix that with MAC:s, who also get targeted.
lerks can hide and shoot spikes doing very effective herass.
the snipe spike is WAY imba imo, as lerks can peek out and snipe sentrys.
this is ofc when both teams playing are competent.
this will probably change when they fix the "no-IP bug" (M should start with 1 IP already up),
but then it's just running straight to a TP, building CC, upgrading home CC, rec exp CC, #2 with a 20 carbon advance.
(30C advance if "AA addon bug" gets fixed and second armory isn't needed cos of e.g. gas spam).
this is imo the deeper/fundamental underlying cause that UWE needs to do some pondering about:
A don't risk losing early game at all - not like M can easily take the hive down.
while M rely on ONE SINGLE IP - which goes down to a single skulk in ~20 secs.
Comments
so the only way is a short rush game?
sounds interesting however, have to try...
NurEinMensch
the upgrade on RT:s only effects P production, C income is unchanged...
so the only way is a short rush game?
sounds interesting however, have to try...
NurEinMensch
the upgrade on RT:s only effects P production, C income is unchanged...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
nah, it's not the only way. but if you establish the threat of a rush, then aliens have to play more defensively. same reason why marines can't go and get total map control at the start of a game (besides the ip bug)
Maybe NS2HD can prove me wrong at some point?
Maybe NS2HD can prove me wrong at some point?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
it requires poor play by the aliens, yes. but it's possible. if you have enough marines spawn before you have to build an ip, you can have them run to the first hives and shoot any drifters, blocking aliens from getting another hive early. from there, as long as you have 3-4 marines with shotguns moving in a group, you can medspam them enough to get them to the hive and knock it down.
the upgrade on RT:s only effects P production, C income is unchanged...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I thought it affected carbon too, but I admit I might be wrong. However my point stands. If you lock all doors there's only one way aliens can get into the double res room (if you exclude vents, which most people don't seem to use), and that is through the marine expansion. At that point marine territory includes MS, first expansion and double, with only two (normal) ways in. One being the big gate in MS, the other the side door of the expansion. Those two points are easy to defend. Sitting on three RTs you can then tech your way to victory.
You spawn a new drifter to build a crag as home defence, and it immediately tries to go to that first resnode you wanted in early game.
Really annoying as theese expensive builders gets lost and maybe killed in vain cause they are going into a forward marine base because of the pathing or whatever.
this saves those both situations i was talking about to a great deal...
HOWEVER: you get 10C by recycling a built sentry - EXPLOIT!