A few questions about spark/props/textures

LoeyLoey Join Date: 2009-10-31 Member: 69187Members
I'm running build 151 and i cant test my map as i get a connection error. I also cant update as i've got a 200mb a day download limit and the fastest speed ive achieved on that is 10kb/s so forgive me if any of these questions are easily answered by getting into the game and playing.


<b>1. Tying geometry together or making faces separately?</b>
Is this entirely up to the mapper or is one way preferred because it affects performance less? I've tied everything together and removed every unnecessary edge, vertice and face.

<b>2. Model textures</b>
Is there anyway to access the textures the models use? I'd like to use a door that has been peeled open and have dents in doors

<b>3. Geometry vs props</b>
Other that taking longer, is there a downside to detailing using geometry as opposed to props?

<b>4. Skulk model</b>
If a vent is just wide enough to fit a skulk, will the model clip through the vent when he turns perpendicular to it? I have a pipe/tunnel that runs through a hallway and if a skulk model will clip through it when he decides to turn, then I'll have to adjust

<b>5. Sounds</b>
I have 2 rooms close together but not joined, how far apart do they need to be so that I can't hear through walls?

<b>6. Modelling programs</b>
I'm looking for a modelling program as simple to use as spark to make a few small props. Anything where i can draw single lines to make faces is perfect. Would prefer that there were 2D and a 3D viewport but i can manage 3D only.


thanks in advance for any help

Comments

  • chubbystevechubbysteve Join Date: 2002-10-14 Member: 1496Members, Constellation
    I can only answer for 1. I'd say making indivual faces is better where possible because you have more control at a later time. I don't think the effort in clean up is as essential as it's counterpart in Hammer.

    Also you have my sympathies for that connection. Must suck.
  • SgtBarlowSgtBarlow Level Designer Join Date: 2003-11-13 Member: 22749Members, NS2 Developer
    You can't yet make skins for models, You can download a DDS file format plugin for Photoshop from nVidia as well as other related tools for the .dds format

    You may as well make the vent big enought for two skulks to pass eachother so players can pass each other.

    Sound occlusion through walls is being worked on, there is no total occlusion in yet, you can control max distance a sound can be heard from on each sound entity you place is its fully in your control what you can heare from where.

    You can actually use spark to model stuff up because you can export to .obj and then use any prefered program to finnish it off/texture it.
  • MasterGMasterG gmfbst Join Date: 2003-08-24 Member: 20169Members, Squad Five Blue
    Very nice being able to model in spark, but the scaling seems to be off when imported to max? I have max set to inches as default system units and units set to generic. That should be correct, right? Also could there be something I missed on the import menu? I tried setting the scale there but it didn't seem to be what I wanted. Any help is appreciated!
  • InsaneInsane Anomaly Join Date: 2002-05-13 Member: 605Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts, Future Perfect Developer
    <!--quoteo(post=1813763:date=Dec 6 2010, 04:53 AM:name=Loey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Loey @ Dec 6 2010, 04:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1813763"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>1. Tying geometry together or making faces separately?</b>
    Is this entirely up to the mapper or is one way preferred because it affects performance less? I've tied everything together and removed every unnecessary edge, vertice and face.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    It shouldn't make any performance difference, but you should avoid tying things together where possible, as it will make it easier for you to edit your map later on.

    <!--quoteo(post=1813763:date=Dec 6 2010, 04:53 AM:name=Loey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Loey @ Dec 6 2010, 04:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1813763"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>3. Geometry vs props</b>
    Other that taking longer, is there a downside to detailing using geometry as opposed to props?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Only insofar as it will be less detailed (as the props all have their own custom textures). The engine doesn't really treat them differently in terms of performance.

    <!--quoteo(post=1813763:date=Dec 6 2010, 04:53 AM:name=Loey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Loey @ Dec 6 2010, 04:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1813763"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>4. Skulk model</b>
    If a vent is just wide enough to fit a skulk, will the model clip through the vent when he turns perpendicular to it? I have a pipe/tunnel that runs through a hallway and if a skulk model will clip through it when he decides to turn, then I'll have to adjust<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I think it would need to be wider.


    <!--quoteo(post=1813763:date=Dec 6 2010, 04:53 AM:name=Loey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Loey @ Dec 6 2010, 04:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1813763"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>6. Modelling programs</b>
    I'm looking for a modelling program as simple to use as spark to make a few small props. Anything where i can draw single lines to make faces is perfect. Would prefer that there were 2D and a 3D viewport but i can manage 3D only.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I'd suggest Sketchup.
  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The Netherlands Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
    <!--quoteo(post=1813890:date=Dec 6 2010, 05:23 PM:name=Insane)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Insane @ Dec 6 2010, 05:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1813890"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'd suggest Sketchup.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Sketchup texturing and collada exporting is weird as it doesn't use an UV map though, for modeling simple stuff it is awesome to use though. I wish SparkE would get up to that level for it's geometry :P
  • LoeyLoey Join Date: 2009-10-31 Member: 69187Members
    thanks for the help guys. im used to tying stuff together so i'll probably keep doing it.

    <!--quoteo(post=1813858:date=Dec 7 2010, 02:08 AM:name=SgtBarlow)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SgtBarlow @ Dec 7 2010, 02:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1813858"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You can't yet make skins for models, You can download a DDS file format plugin for Photoshop from nVidia as well as other related tools for the .dds format

    You may as well make the vent big enought for two skulks to pass eachother so players can pass each other.

    Sound occlusion through walls is being worked on, there is no total occlusion in yet, you can control max distance a sound can be heard from on each sound entity you place is its fully in your control what you can heare from where.

    You can actually use spark to model stuff up because you can export to .obj and then use any prefered program to finnish it off/texture it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    i was thinking more along the lines of gun fire/people running around not entities. last time i played i could hear stuff through walls although im a few versions behind and this might have been fixed already
  • persoperso Join Date: 2003-02-19 Member: 13740Members, WC 2013 - Supporter
    edited December 2010
    <!--quoteo(post=1813890:date=Dec 6 2010, 12:23 PM:name=Insane)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Insane @ Dec 6 2010, 12:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1813890"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It shouldn't make any performance difference, but you should avoid tying things together where possible, as it will make it easier for you to edit your map later on.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I don't know if anyone else is having the same problem, but it seems that the latest build auto-welds vertices?
    Some of the faces that I made separately are somehow now tied together... Anyone know if it's a bug or a feature? :(
    IIRC in hammer you were always asked before merging vertices :)
  • LandironLandiron Join Date: 2010-11-30 Member: 75355Members
    I had the same issue when I was editing some geometry today, but wasnt sure if I welded them accidently.
  • LoeyLoey Join Date: 2009-10-31 Member: 69187Members
    ok im still in hl1 mapping mode and taking into account what i used to refer to as "vis blockers", pretty much bends in corridors and objects to reduce r_speeds. obviously its not a god idea to have a long straight corridor as its a disadvantage to aliens but i am designing a corridor like this, where the red represents glass windows.

    <img src="http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/7697/examplejs.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />

    it used to be a bad practice to be able to see from 1 room to another because of hlvis, is it still bad with the spark engine, taking into account the engine still needs to be optimized? i could vary the dimensions so you cant see room to room but i would still like to see a decent distance through the glass windows as a sense of early warning of whats up ahead
  • InsaneInsane Anomaly Join Date: 2002-05-13 Member: 605Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts, Future Perfect Developer
    It's not easy to get a sense of scale in that drawing, but it looks like it should be okay. The occlusion culling algorithms in Spark are a lot better than HLVIS in determining what should or shouldn't be drawn at any one time.
  • pSyk0mAnpSyk0mAn Nerdish by Nature Germany Join Date: 2003-08-07 Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer
    <!--quoteo(post=1813763:date=Dec 6 2010, 06:53 AM:name=Loey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Loey @ Dec 6 2010, 06:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1813763"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>1. Tying geometry together or making faces separately?</b>
    Is this entirely up to the mapper or is one way preferred because it affects performance less? I've tied everything together and removed every unnecessary edge, vertice and face.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    As mentioned, it is easier to change things, when everything is seperate.
    On the other hand I think it is very annoying to have multiple vertices/edges at one spot, when you want to select and transform stuff and it's even worse, when you try to draw additional lines.

    Get familiar with the powerful extruding mechanic and with all the possibilities how to alter geometry and which one is best to use in certain situations like extruding, moving vertices/lines/faces, scaling certain lines/faces to get the desired shape of a "brush", and more.
    There are always seemingly unneeded faces/lines that actually make it a lot easier to alter the shape of geometry, so don't be so eager to delete stuff unless it somehow badly affects the flow of the map.

    I try to make a rough layout with a lot of seperate faces, and after that you can extrude some faces for more detail or to make room for props.
    That way the more detailed geometry is tied together and easier to copy&paste or transform, while it's still easy to change the room layout.
  • LoeyLoey Join Date: 2009-10-31 Member: 69187Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1815045:date=Dec 12 2010, 12:28 AM:name=Insane)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Insane @ Dec 12 2010, 12:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1815045"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's not easy to get a sense of scale in that drawing, but it looks like it should be okay. The occlusion culling algorithms in Spark are a lot better than HLVIS in determining what should or shouldn't be drawn at any one time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    my paint skills are somewhat lacking so i wasnt able to draw the exact layout

    is there something equivalent to an r_speed limit that i should take into account when creating rooms and corridors?

    <!--quoteo(post=1815047:date=Dec 12 2010, 12:30 AM:name=pSyk0mAn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (pSyk0mAn @ Dec 12 2010, 12:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1815047"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As mentioned, it is easier to change things, when everything is seperate.
    On the other hand I think it is very annoying to have multiple vertices/edges at one spot, when you want to select and transform stuff and it's even worse, when you try to draw additional lines.

    Get familiar with the powerful extruding mechanic and with all the possibilities how to alter geometry and which one is best to use in certain situations like extruding, moving vertices/lines/faces, scaling certain lines/faces to get the desired shape of a "brush", and more.
    There are always seemingly unneeded faces/lines that actually make it a lot easier to alter the shape of geometry, so don't be so eager to delete stuff unless it somehow badly affects the flow of the map.

    I try to make a rough layout with a lot of seperate faces, and after that you can extrude some faces for more detail or to make room for props.
    That way the more detailed geometry is tied together and easier to copy&paste or transform, while it's still easy to change the room layout.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    i actually find it easier to modify when everything is tied together. if i need to add another face to, i draw a line to cut the existing face in half and then move.

    i rarely use the extrude tool, most of the time i'll copy and paste edges, then link them with the line tool. now that i think about it id say i make the majority of my geometry using copy and paste and the line tool. its alot slower which is why i dont have much to show but it fits in with my method of linking everything together which i wanted to check wasnt a bad thing now that ive got some rooms and a plan for a map

    ive also found that when i link everything and i need to modify vertices/edges/faces which in turn delete a face, that face is easily re created because there are no edges on top of edges
  • pSyk0mAnpSyk0mAn Nerdish by Nature Germany Join Date: 2003-08-07 Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer
    I guess both styles have their downsides.
    When you tie and draw everything together, you can't just move certain parts without ruining adjacent geometry and texture alignment.
    As long as you only keep together what belongs together, it less of a problem to change things, but there again the issues with overlapping vertices/lines come in play.
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