Do we have tactical problems below 6 Tech points ?
yimmasabi
Join Date: 2006-11-03 Member: 58318Members
Join Date: 2006-11-03 Member: 58318Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Do we need 6 tech points to fully upgraded both sides ?</div>This week I had a time to test upgrades, res-nodes, hives, mascs etc. while testing my map ns2_thedron. We played via LAN (which has less lags then inet) with my son, It was just a testing and I can't say that we have a lot fun while playing, there were some missings from NS1.
Unfortunetly I found that my 4 tech-point based map (which is like classic NS, 3 for hives, 1 for marines) is completely wrong because of upgrade button named "command facility" which says you need 3 tech points and also same with aliens.
So for a completely upgraded final in a map, both sides must have 6 tech points (3 for aliens and 3 for rines). I didn't like the idea that both sides need 3 tech points.
The most interesting thing in NS was both sides were completly different. But now in NS2, both sides must have commander, both sides must have 3 tech points to upgrade them self, both sides can build their structures by workers, robots or drifters.
And again we should consider this equality which is far away from NS1. Let me give some examples for tactical problems here.
Example 1. If you have 5 tech points or below, 1 side will never upgrade "Commmand Facility/Hive Mass 2" because both side need 3 tech points. Who captures the first tech point gets full upgrades and wins the game.
Example 2.
Think you are playing 1 vs 1. You are gorge and build some hydras to defend somewhere but you also want to build crag you must go back to Hive (far away or close) to build this thing. But while you were going, these structures that you build can be destroyed by your oppenent. And drifter also can be killed. I'm really confused again.
Example 3.
We should think again drifters and workers. One of the exciting thing in NS is attacking or defending yourself while building and also defending structure that you build. While playing with workers there is no this funny atmosphere of building things cuz they are faster than you and when you go to WP you see it is built. :(
On the other side I like the idea of upgraded structures, upgraded harvester, upgraded crag, hydras also can be. Still an alien commander in NS2 while having cute hard working gorges makes me confused.
I know game is still in alpha process and in development there may be many changes. I just want to point some things which moves the game from a funny place to a boring place.
I think we need tactically playable some simple maps to test those above.
Unfortunetly I found that my 4 tech-point based map (which is like classic NS, 3 for hives, 1 for marines) is completely wrong because of upgrade button named "command facility" which says you need 3 tech points and also same with aliens.
So for a completely upgraded final in a map, both sides must have 6 tech points (3 for aliens and 3 for rines). I didn't like the idea that both sides need 3 tech points.
The most interesting thing in NS was both sides were completly different. But now in NS2, both sides must have commander, both sides must have 3 tech points to upgrade them self, both sides can build their structures by workers, robots or drifters.
And again we should consider this equality which is far away from NS1. Let me give some examples for tactical problems here.
Example 1. If you have 5 tech points or below, 1 side will never upgrade "Commmand Facility/Hive Mass 2" because both side need 3 tech points. Who captures the first tech point gets full upgrades and wins the game.
Example 2.
Think you are playing 1 vs 1. You are gorge and build some hydras to defend somewhere but you also want to build crag you must go back to Hive (far away or close) to build this thing. But while you were going, these structures that you build can be destroyed by your oppenent. And drifter also can be killed. I'm really confused again.
Example 3.
We should think again drifters and workers. One of the exciting thing in NS is attacking or defending yourself while building and also defending structure that you build. While playing with workers there is no this funny atmosphere of building things cuz they are faster than you and when you go to WP you see it is built. :(
On the other side I like the idea of upgraded structures, upgraded harvester, upgraded crag, hydras also can be. Still an alien commander in NS2 while having cute hard working gorges makes me confused.
I know game is still in alpha process and in development there may be many changes. I just want to point some things which moves the game from a funny place to a boring place.
I think we need tactically playable some simple maps to test those above.
Comments
That said I'm not sold on command chairs being like marine hives either, but marines being at full strength while turtling their base was a definite gameplay issue in NS1. With a small pool of res they could easily camp their base with full upgrades and their best gear even after they've lost control of the entire map, while aliens were powerless at one hive against teched marines. I think there's a case to be made for a more immediate penalty to the marines for not controlling critical areas of the map.
The symmetry of the comms has a lot of benefits too. It makes the res model easier to balance, it makes various team sizes easier to balance, and it means twice as many people playing comm in any given game which should greatly increase the pool of qualified commanders which was also a problem in NS1.
This.
We don't know what 3rd tech point abilities are.
Any related moral speculation is unfortunately groundless now.
This discussion should absolutely be brought up again when we hit NS2's mostly feature complete phase. Great thread idea, less than ideal timing. Hope to see it again in a year or so.
I personally felt the guidelines where a bit to tight meaning the maps where to small for any strategic planing, the plan on the small maps is try and find and open tech point and relocate secretly as the aliens bum rush your start. I went with a large plan with 6 tech points for a longer game and more of a push forward fall back kind of game-play. I think when all is said and done it will be a matter of preference of the players on the size of the maps they like. personally the current guidelines are more like the good 'ol CO maps of ns1 where you run and gun. So far the test subjects whom have ran my level like the distances over the guideline distances in turn give you more time to strategically advance rather than brute force alone.
@ zek
Very valid points and i couldn't agree more. When some of the custom maps start making a show in public we will see where the problems are and be able to refine either by game or map layouts.
Yes, as I said it is still in development. But I just want to point what I see in NS2 from now.
I recommend to all playing alpha more and criticize it.
For your testing, command facilities do not require 3 tech points, only two. So even on a small map, a large amount of the tech tree is available. Remember also that UWE has made Rockdown, which contains no spare tech points at all. Different maps can be tailored to different game-play styles. Long tech-macro games can occur, as well as short low tech intense games.
Balance and tech tree tweaking will all come much, much later in development.
This is something we can test easily and I believe there will be more people doing this "less than 6 power node" style maps in the future infact it could very well be another gamemode. I like this style more because it is less forgiving when it comes to claiming the nodes, it gives more edge should either side manage to gain control also it decreases chance of "stationary" play where neither side can advance, avoiding pointless spamfest.
Bottomline, I think you should go with less nodes than the "guide" says.
Is that not when the real RTS/FPS qualities shine through?
If your really think about the guidelines and 32 people playing......uhhhhh....."commander !!!...I need elbow room stat!!!"
Of course, having a variety of tech points on different maps would be fun to test. A 6 point map would encourage a longer, drawn out battle that could be fun some times.
That is true, a lot of them needed some major work when all the evo upgrades got juggled around or marine tech got rebalanced but on the other foot unless people start working on maps now the game will be map poor at release, so it's a case of rod for your own back or having to learn it from scratch at release.