<!--quoteo(post=1804252:date=Nov 3 2010, 02:03 AM:name=SgtBarlow)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SgtBarlow @ Nov 3 2010, 02:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1804252"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->*Bunch of text*<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Thanks, I really wanted to have an *official* word about this. I don't have a clue about graphic engines but I was scared the core engine was the problem.
Sort of. There is also a huge thing called the big blue sea between me and them, i dont like that blue thing, it looks rather sinister!
I dout it as you certainly could not play the game very well with no flash at all besides the fact its going to be phased out anyway for more than one reason. Your crosshair, health displays, commander mode, tool tips, chat, kill messages, scoreboard, point award indicators, weapon buy menu, alien gestation menu is all flash GUI so you would have a hard time playing without it. You need bluetack on your screen if you want to be able shoot anything.
I just would not worry about it, the process for replacing it all has begun apparently.
Just last Friday I was indeed asked to organise the PT team and produce daily reports. Fraid it may actually be my fault the 153 is delayed, well not delayed but with a tweet I guess its dubbed as delayed now :), I would be surprised if they manage to get a patch out today, I laced the poor sods with a big list these past couple days. The arrangement is good, the timezones benefit us greatly, Myself and a soon to be regular team test a daily build they create while were asleep, we wake up and test while they are in bed, they get up in the morning to find a nice big list of bugs. This is day 2 of this new setup, i think Charlie was cought of guard as to how much would actually be found to fix when he tweeted about the Monday Patch ;) .
From now on there should be lesser of any majour game stoppers, still patches might roll out while things are still in a todo list or in progress. For that matter i know what is being worked on currently, what is already known and what the community is having issues with thus I can compile a list that makes more sense and contains 1 report of each bug. Much simpler for them to handle rather than getting multiple reports for the same bugs with peeps reporting things that are not related to that bug but something else. its easily done as more than one thing can cause a problem and more than one problem can be accouring at the same time, its upto me to triple check what is actually going on before handing the info over.
devicenullJoin Date: 2003-04-30Member: 15967Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited November 2010
<!--quoteo(post=1804252:date=Nov 2 2010, 09:03 PM:name=SgtBarlow)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SgtBarlow @ Nov 2 2010, 09:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1804252"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->They do indeed use luaJIT and its functioning normally. You wont get a slow down if its not being hammered to death anyway?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
All the game logic in Lua = hammered to death.
Amxmod/Adminmod (back in HL1 days) had issues with the language interpreter being too slow, and causing lag. These were typically not running anything near full game modes. If that managed to slow the game down, what do you think running all the logic in it would do?
Regardless, I'd expect to see at least some FPS drop.. I saw none. There's a very large difference between interpreted code and JIT code.
<!--quoteo(post=1804265:date=Nov 2 2010, 10:00 PM:name=SgtBarlow)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SgtBarlow @ Nov 2 2010, 10:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1804265"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Much simpler for them to handle rather than getting multiple reports for the same bugs with peeps reporting things that are not related to that bug but something else. its easily done as more than one thing can cause a problem and more than one problem can be accouring at the same time, its upto me to triple check what is actually going on before handing the info over.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That seems to make far more sense then their current system. Getsatisfaction is really the worst system I've seen for managing bug reports.
<!--quoteo(post=1804276:date=Nov 3 2010, 12:02 AM:name=FuzionMonkey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FuzionMonkey @ Nov 3 2010, 12:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1804276"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Anybody have an idea of the implications of: "Script optimizations - precache all GetEntitiesIsa() calls"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That short of a description really isn't much to go on, but what I would do is keep a bunch of different lists of all the different types of entities, so that when you call 'GetEntitiesIsa(command_center)', you just have to return your precomputed list, you don't have to go through every entity in the game checking what type it is. It makes a lot of sense actually, you trade memory usage for CPU time, and the memory usage for this is pretty low.
Maybe when the whole thing is able to run faster you might be able to find any noticeble lua related slowdowns if there is any? From what I can understand about code execution being render timeframe based its currently executed slowly so it probably cant run slower than it already does cause not much load is applied in general at the moment? Maybe faster excecution will show any strains there might be more clearly?
*It takes a lot of units in Supreme Commander before it turns to slideshow poop, I dont think NS2 is anywhere as script intensive as that game unless there are some lose ends in NS2s Lua causing some slowdowns, could be true since Charlie seems to be doing optimizations with them. But the number of trackable things in SUPCOM is intense, all the collisions and and true hit tracking is some serious scripting time. I think NS2 has plenty of headroom in comparison.
I speeded up supcom by writing a simple mod that removes tacticle missiles when playing sorianai mod, made for much better ground combat too when your fatboys and other units arent reduced to scrap metal before you get anywhere near the AI's bases :)
<!--quoteo(post=1804285:date=Nov 3 2010, 01:20 AM:name=weezl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (weezl @ Nov 3 2010, 01:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1804285"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->wait, is supcom lua scripted?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Indeed. I remember people whining about Lua when SupCom had bad performance as well, haha. There's actually quite a large number of Lua scripted games:
for me, FA made supcom "childfriendly" or "dumbed down" even though it brought many other good things!
if that was a small step towards where the majority of games are going today, then supcom2 was a giant leap in that direction and was completely console-ized and dumbed down!
i really hope UWE and NS2 won't go the same direction, even with the temptation of broader audience and subsequently more money...
(though i am wondering how in the world consolers are gonna control aliens with thumbsticks...)
This is one of the few good threads on this forum, lets try and keep it related to the Spark engine performance.
(As much fun as it would be to talk about SupCom)
Back on topic:
<!--QuoteBegin-"NS2 Twitter"+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ("NS2 Twitter")</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Optimizing the game like crazy. No code is safe!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sounds like the next release should have a number of performance improvements. I'm glad they are really starting to work on optimization. We now have server player limits, which should help minimize laggy games, and now hopefully we'll see some better framerates.
AsranielJoin Date: 2002-06-03Member: 724Members, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Retired Community Developer
as long as the flash gui is not replaced, the difference will be quite small. BUT, as soon as the flash gui is replaced and the rest is already optimized, we should get a very big fps increase :)
Looks like I have a valid reason to benchmark build 153 now. Hope to see some improvements. Mostly just concerned with the animation jerkiness, which appears to be fixed now.
Just a quick update to compare the latest build 153 patch...here is one of my previous runs on the 152 patch at settings I'm currently using...
1) My first run, at overclocked CPU settings, default GPU settings 1680x1050, high settings, e8400 @ 3.78ghz min/avg/max 13/25.2/31 fps
Here's what I received doing the same 60 second run through with the 153 patch...
1680x1050, high settings, e8400 @ 3.78ghz min/avg/max 10/25.3/34
As you can see, no real change, at least for running around on a server by yourself. Lots of people are reporting massive performance improvements, so I wonder if whether it's OS specific or situational, such as in 8+ man games. Also, animation jerkiness is fixed :D
Wow just tested r_stats in main menu 97fps (1200*800 windowed hd5850 x4 955 8GB) but when you click on some part of the menu like " Join" fps go down to 60fps instantly and stay there.
Hope they find a replacement or fix for the flash gui soon.
Mr. EpicJoin Date: 2003-08-01Member: 18660Members, Constellation
Found an interesting "bug". If you become a spectator you gain a ton of performance. If I walk around in the ready room I get 25-30fps. If I become a spectator and then move around the room its 40-55.
<!--quoteo(post=1804408:date=Nov 4 2010, 02:09 AM:name=Mr. Epic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mr. Epic @ Nov 4 2010, 02:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1804408"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Found an interesting "bug". If you become a spectator you gain a ton of performance. If I walk around in the ready room I get 25-30fps. If I become a spectator and then move around the room its 40-55.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That would be gameswf killing performance! All of the GUI's, HUD's and menus are done with flash. Spectator doesn't have any HUD, thus the performance boost!
Not only will we get that in build 154, but we'll get the server high cpu usage fix as well. I think these two combined will make the game leaps and bounds more playable for a lot of people. It'll be a big change.
Comments
Would it be easy/useful then to add an r_flash = 0 console option to disable flash rendering entirely for the next patch?
Then we could see if FPS really do climb and see if the game improves without flash for ourselves (who get 30fps atm).
Thanks, I really wanted to have an *official* word about this. I don't have a clue about graphic engines but I was scared the core engine was the problem.
I dout it as you certainly could not play the game very well with no flash at all besides the fact its going to be phased out anyway for more than one reason.
Your crosshair, health displays, commander mode, tool tips, chat, kill messages, scoreboard, point award indicators, weapon buy menu, alien gestation menu is all flash GUI so you would have a hard time playing without it.
You need bluetack on your screen if you want to be able shoot anything.
I just would not worry about it, the process for replacing it all has begun apparently.
Just last Friday I was indeed asked to organise the PT team and produce daily reports. Fraid it may actually be my fault the 153 is delayed, well not delayed but with a tweet I guess its dubbed as delayed now :), I would be surprised if they manage to get a patch out today, I laced the poor sods with a big list these past couple days. The arrangement is good, the timezones benefit us greatly, Myself and a soon to be regular team test a daily build they create while were asleep, we wake up and test while they are in bed, they get up in the morning to find a nice big list of bugs.
This is day 2 of this new setup, i think Charlie was cought of guard as to how much would actually be found to fix when he tweeted about the Monday Patch ;) .
From now on there should be lesser of any majour game stoppers, still patches might roll out while things are still in a todo list or in progress.
For that matter i know what is being worked on currently, what is already known and what the community is having issues with thus I can compile a list that makes more sense and contains 1 report of each bug.
Much simpler for them to handle rather than getting multiple reports for the same bugs with peeps reporting things that are not related to that bug but something else. its easily done as more than one thing can cause a problem and more than one problem can be accouring at the same time, its upto me to triple check what is actually going on before handing the info over.
Anybody have an idea of the implications of: "Script optimizations - precache all GetEntitiesIsa() calls"
All the game logic in Lua = hammered to death.
Amxmod/Adminmod (back in HL1 days) had issues with the language interpreter being too slow, and causing lag. These were typically not running anything near full game modes. If that managed to slow the game down, what do you think running all the logic in it would do?
Regardless, I'd expect to see at least some FPS drop.. I saw none. There's a very large difference between interpreted code and JIT code.
<!--quoteo(post=1804265:date=Nov 2 2010, 10:00 PM:name=SgtBarlow)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SgtBarlow @ Nov 2 2010, 10:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1804265"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Much simpler for them to handle rather than getting multiple reports for the same bugs with peeps reporting things that are not related to that bug but something else. its easily done as more than one thing can cause a problem and more than one problem can be accouring at the same time, its upto me to triple check what is actually going on before handing the info over.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That seems to make far more sense then their current system. Getsatisfaction is really the worst system I've seen for managing bug reports.
<!--quoteo(post=1804276:date=Nov 3 2010, 12:02 AM:name=FuzionMonkey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FuzionMonkey @ Nov 3 2010, 12:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1804276"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Anybody have an idea of the implications of: "Script optimizations - precache all GetEntitiesIsa() calls"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That short of a description really isn't much to go on, but what I would do is keep a bunch of different lists of all the different types of entities, so that when you call 'GetEntitiesIsa(command_center)', you just have to return your precomputed list, you don't have to go through every entity in the game checking what type it is. It makes a lot of sense actually, you trade memory usage for CPU time, and the memory usage for this is pretty low.
Maybe faster excecution will show any strains there might be more clearly?
*It takes a lot of units in Supreme Commander before it turns to slideshow poop, I dont think NS2 is anywhere as script intensive as that game unless there are some lose ends in NS2s Lua causing some slowdowns, could be true since Charlie seems to be doing optimizations with them.
But the number of trackable things in SUPCOM is intense, all the collisions and and true hit tracking is some serious scripting time. I think NS2 has plenty of headroom in comparison.
I speeded up supcom by writing a simple mod that removes tacticle missiles when playing sorianai mod, made for much better ground combat too when your fatboys and other units arent reduced to scrap metal before you get anywhere near the AI's bases :)
Indeed. I remember people whining about Lua when SupCom had bad performance as well, haha. There's actually quite a large number of Lua scripted games:
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Lua-scripted_video_games" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Lua-...ted_video_games</a>
Thanks for the great info mate. It's so good to know that at its core, Spark is a fast engine. Bodes very, very well for the future of NS2.
if that was a small step towards where the majority of games are going today,
then supcom2 was a giant leap in that direction and was completely console-ized and dumbed down!
i really hope UWE and NS2 won't go the same direction, even with the temptation of broader audience and subsequently more money...
(though i am wondering how in the world consolers are gonna control aliens with thumbsticks...)
(As much fun as it would be to talk about SupCom)
Back on topic:
<!--QuoteBegin-"NS2 Twitter"+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ("NS2 Twitter")</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Optimizing the game like crazy. No code is safe!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sounds like the next release should have a number of performance improvements. I'm glad they are really starting to work on optimization. We now have server player limits, which should help minimize laggy games, and now hopefully we'll see some better framerates.
1) My first run, at overclocked CPU settings, default GPU settings
1680x1050, high settings, e8400 @ 3.78ghz
min/avg/max
13/25.2/31 fps
Here's what I received doing the same 60 second run through with the 153 patch...
1680x1050, high settings, e8400 @ 3.78ghz
min/avg/max
10/25.3/34
As you can see, no real change, at least for running around on a server by yourself. Lots of people are reporting massive performance improvements, so I wonder if whether it's OS specific or situational, such as in 8+ man games. Also, animation jerkiness is fixed :D
Hope they find a replacement or fix for the flash gui soon.
Greetings
That would be gameswf killing performance! All of the GUI's, HUD's and menus are done with flash. Spectator doesn't have any HUD, thus the performance boost!
<!--QuoteBegin-"Pivotal Tracker"+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ("Pivotal Tracker")</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Heavily optimize marine and alien UI (noticeable frame-rate improvement)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
EDIT: Meant 154, whoops!
Not only will we get that in build 154, but we'll get the server high cpu usage fix as well. I think these two combined will make the game leaps and bounds more playable for a lot of people. It'll be a big change.