<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Perhaps, though, we might yet return to a realm of supernatural FPS movement. If we do, then I think it will be not via a formalisation of relatively abstract movement and physics anomalies, which gave us bunny hopping and trick-jumping, but instead an attempt to realise the super-powered possibilities of game protagonists from approaches set out by Mirror’s Edge and Brink.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Dammit, I really hope so. I could never be bothered to invest the considerable time required to learn strafe-bunnyhopping or whatever it's called, and as a result I was never a very good Skulk in Natural Selection. Couldn't move fast enough. And like the article's author, I really think fps games need more interesting ways to move.
Yeah, I agree. I've always loved the OMG HAX feeling of some FPS games, and while I have learned the basics of bhop I'm by no means a master.
Still, there are ways I'm sure of raising the ceiling and making it a core gameplay element without bhops. I really enjoyed a small stint in Warsow with their wall jumping.
remiremedy [blu.knight]Join Date: 2003-11-18Member: 23112Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester
<!--quoteo(post=1800333:date=Sep 29 2010, 03:40 PM:name=DiscoZombie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DiscoZombie @ Sep 29 2010, 03:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1800333"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->this Kotaku editorial seems to try to capture the sort of feeling you peeps is talking about:
<a href="http://kotaku.com/5558166/in-praise-of-sticky-friction" target="_blank">http://kotaku.com/5558166/in-praise-of-sticky-friction</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Except that this article is a bunch of rambling ADD nonsense.
I agree with the idea. Controls are everything, and the most popular games have this thing to their controls that makes just moving your character around feel fun. The rest of the gameplay in Mario doesn't really matter. Just moving him around the screen on its own is immensely rewarding to the player. That's how I felt with the Lerk in NS1, in general in CoD:MW2 (and I believe the primary reason MW2 MP is so freaking popular), and what I don't feel (yet?) in NS2.
<!--quoteo(post=1823704:date=Jan 12 2011, 06:25 PM:name=Psyke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Psyke @ Jan 12 2011, 06:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1823704"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Except that this article is a bunch of rambling ADD nonsense.
I agree with the idea. Controls are everything, and the most popular games have this thing to their controls that makes just moving your character around feel fun. The rest of the gameplay in Mario doesn't really matter. Just moving him around the screen on its own is immensely rewarding to the player. That's how I felt with the Lerk in NS1, in general in CoD:MW2 (and I believe the primary reason MW2 MP is so freaking popular), and what I don't feel (yet?) in NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree and disagree. SO many games fail to make the controls rewarding, they fail to make things feel solid and satisfying. I think the "friction" thing is a reasonable attempt break that idea into smaller parts. It's hard to express what you're doing wrong if your game doesn't "feel" right, there aren't really useful terms for quantifying that...
That being said, there's another side of what games do wrong. Some of the recent most successful indie games are the perfect anti-example to prove my point. Dwarf fortress and Minecraft both feel like utter crap to navigate. Minecraft not quite as much, but the interface in Minecraft is FAR from groundbreaking. The other side of things, is game depth. It's also a hard to quantify thing... you can't 'do' alot in Minecraft, but the combinations of the things you can do and the environment you have to act on make the game feel infinite, as if there's no limit to the wonders you might discover if you just keep playing a little longer, just get a little bit more diamond, just build your tower a little more grand and elaborate... Depth in games is EXTREMELY important, more important than the feel of games I think (as much as it pains me as a long time NS player to say that).
The other element I think is invaluable, is the ability to create in a game. Games that allow you to make things, and give the things you make meaningful consequences, are worth their weight in gold, both in the market and in my own opinion of playability and fun.
There was a disturbingly unfinished but still extremely fun HL2 mod that was up for a while called "SourceForts". It used HL2 physics to allow you to build bases and then basically just let you fight it out to capture the enemy flag. In it's middle stage of development it combined creativity and solid feel, and that game was magical, although it was balanced like utter ###### and used mostly content stolen from HL2 DM. The map design also tended to be on the horrendous and gimicky side, still, that game had some serious charm.
Anyways the point of what I'm trying to say is I think, for gameplay anyways, those are the big three. The feeling of the game (the friction I guess), the depth of the game, and the creative allowance for the players of the game. Take any two of those and you'll have a winner. God help us when someone succeeds in getting all 3 together. The other stuff, story, graphics, puzzles, pacing, whatever, they either add or take away from those 3 things depending exactly how they are done. Story does, I think, deserve another special mention, as it has a side role that is not relevant to gameplay, many people play games simply to enjoy narrative, kind of like watching a movie... But I think Games transcend that by being able to implement the gameplay side of things.
<!--quoteo(post=1828247:date=Jan 28 2011, 03:32 PM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Swiftspear @ Jan 28 2011, 03:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1828247"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There was a disturbingly unfinished but still extremely fun HL2 mod that was up for a while called "SourceForts". It used HL2 physics to allow you to build bases and then basically just let you fight it out to capture the enemy flag. In it's middle stage of development it combined creativity and solid feel, and that game was magical, although it was balanced like utter ###### and used mostly content stolen from HL2 DM. The map design also tended to be on the horrendous and gimicky side, still, that game had some serious charm.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
OMG, I loved SourceForts. I even managed to get some people to buy DM Source just to play it with me.
Too bad it's fallen into modder hell. And the gameplay balance didn't exist....
About the shift of games from the traditional 1 giant publisher and 1 platform to today's nimble casual/social multi-platform gaming. <center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/V7urDz_J-Gg"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/V7urDz_J-Gg" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center>
SourceForts was a perfect mod. Maps were perfect and no one cared about models/weapons being stolen from HL2. It was perfect example where simple idea and almost placeholder graphics can make something incredibly fun. First: if you were playing on server with proper admin you could build your own miniforts like forts outside of main map where you saw your enemy only through tiny hole to fire at them using combine rifle. And when the combat phase started everything got incredibly fast-paced. Movement physics (however you call it) were <b>JUST RIGHT</b> for fast CTF. Map design made you fall of the map and die after making mistake and it made game even more fun (slipping just a bit too much in long bunny hopping sprint).
Another thing quite exceptional in SF CTF was that as the scout you were FAST. You were so ###### fast that you were more afraid of making mistake while walking/sprinting and not about getting hit. Some games have fast capturing class (TFC) and some have slow (TF2, UT). IMO speed and difficulty related to avoiding barricades made SF just right.
Yet another interesting aspect of it that unlike other games you could have 1 "stacked" team of 2-5 experienced players playing against 5-15 newbies and game was balanced and fun. I guess it wouldn't hurt if they had something balancing teams according to summed skill/performance and not just head count.
Devs somehow managed to make people abandon the mod. All it needed was at most partypooper protection. I'm curious how their resurrection is progressing.
My IntelliMouse Explorer 4.0 died after playing SF a lot.
It wasn't a perfect mod by a long stretch. It had a tendency to devolve into stalemates, the learning curve was steep, and without active admins the potential for griefing was endless.
On the subject of simple concept mods that were super fun, anyone play around with Strangelove in UT like 11 years ago? It let you ride the redeemer. So much suicidal fun!
here is a video that shows some of the flavor of the mod. the meat of the video doesn't start until about 1:45.
<!--quoteo(post=1830421:date=Feb 8 2011, 03:54 AM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lolfighter @ Feb 8 2011, 03:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1830421"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It wasn't a perfect mod by a long stretch. It had a tendency to devolve into stalemates, the learning curve was steep, and without active admins the potential for griefing was endless.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->The learning curve wasn't that steep. The rules were pretty simple for you to just have fun and not feel like you were being owned for being new.
The learning curve was somewhat steep. Building a functional base within a time limit took practice, and until you got good at it trying to help could easily lead to you ###### up somebody else's design. Several essential building techniques, such as how to make a seamlessly interlocking wall perpendicular to the ground, were not immediately apparent or intuitive, meaning you had to figure them out through experimentation and observation. Sufficiently many players never got a good enough grip on base building that it could be a problem sometimes.
The learning curve wasn't insurmountable at all, but it required a bit of patience and dedication. A bit more than some people (though fortunately not most) had. Add to that the tendency towards stalemates and the potential for griefing. None of those things necessarily meant that the mod wasn't good, but it certainly wasn't <i>perfect</i>. That's the word I had an issue with.
Hm, apparently at least a few are still working on it, now under the title Project Haven. They released some cool footage of a new buildy tool thingy in December, which looks quite promising.
Recent Gamasutra article links to a really good Thesis on FPS game UI design. <a href="http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/6346/the_user_interface_continuum_a_.php" target="_blank">http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/6346...ontinuum_a_.php</a>
<b>Beyond The HUD</b> <a href="http://publications.lib.chalmers.se/records/fulltext/111921.pdf" target="_blank">PDF - view in browser or Save As...</a>
Comments
<a href="http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2010/11/29/trickjump-on-first-person-movement/" target="_blank">http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2010/11/29...erson-movement/</a>
Dammit, I really hope so. I could never be bothered to invest the considerable time required to learn strafe-bunnyhopping or whatever it's called, and as a result I was never a very good Skulk in Natural Selection. Couldn't move fast enough. And like the article's author, I really think fps games need more interesting ways to move.
Still, there are ways I'm sure of raising the ceiling and making it a core gameplay element without bhops. I really enjoyed a small stint in Warsow with their wall jumping.
<a href="http://www.lostgarden.com/2010/12/steambirds-survival-goodbye-handcrafted.html" target="_blank">http://www.lostgarden.com/2010/12/steambir...andcrafted.html</a>
Really cool dev post from the boys at Stardock about how they do game mechanic design.
I really would like a super-badass spreadsheet like that....
<a href="http://forums.elementalgame.com/403845" target="_blank">http://forums.elementalgame.com/403845</a>
<a href="http://kotaku.com/5558166/in-praise-of-sticky-friction" target="_blank">http://kotaku.com/5558166/in-praise-of-sticky-friction</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Except that this article is a bunch of rambling ADD nonsense.
I agree with the idea. Controls are everything, and the most popular games have this thing to their controls that makes just moving your character around feel fun. The rest of the gameplay in Mario doesn't really matter. Just moving him around the screen on its own is immensely rewarding to the player. That's how I felt with the Lerk in NS1, in general in CoD:MW2 (and I believe the primary reason MW2 MP is so freaking popular), and what I don't feel (yet?) in NS2.
I agree with the idea. Controls are everything, and the most popular games have this thing to their controls that makes just moving your character around feel fun. The rest of the gameplay in Mario doesn't really matter. Just moving him around the screen on its own is immensely rewarding to the player. That's how I felt with the Lerk in NS1, in general in CoD:MW2 (and I believe the primary reason MW2 MP is so freaking popular), and what I don't feel (yet?) in NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree and disagree. SO many games fail to make the controls rewarding, they fail to make things feel solid and satisfying. I think the "friction" thing is a reasonable attempt break that idea into smaller parts. It's hard to express what you're doing wrong if your game doesn't "feel" right, there aren't really useful terms for quantifying that...
That being said, there's another side of what games do wrong. Some of the recent most successful indie games are the perfect anti-example to prove my point. Dwarf fortress and Minecraft both feel like utter crap to navigate. Minecraft not quite as much, but the interface in Minecraft is FAR from groundbreaking. The other side of things, is game depth. It's also a hard to quantify thing... you can't 'do' alot in Minecraft, but the combinations of the things you can do and the environment you have to act on make the game feel infinite, as if there's no limit to the wonders you might discover if you just keep playing a little longer, just get a little bit more diamond, just build your tower a little more grand and elaborate... Depth in games is EXTREMELY important, more important than the feel of games I think (as much as it pains me as a long time NS player to say that).
The other element I think is invaluable, is the ability to create in a game. Games that allow you to make things, and give the things you make meaningful consequences, are worth their weight in gold, both in the market and in my own opinion of playability and fun.
There was a disturbingly unfinished but still extremely fun HL2 mod that was up for a while called "SourceForts". It used HL2 physics to allow you to build bases and then basically just let you fight it out to capture the enemy flag. In it's middle stage of development it combined creativity and solid feel, and that game was magical, although it was balanced like utter ###### and used mostly content stolen from HL2 DM. The map design also tended to be on the horrendous and gimicky side, still, that game had some serious charm.
Anyways the point of what I'm trying to say is I think, for gameplay anyways, those are the big three. The feeling of the game (the friction I guess), the depth of the game, and the creative allowance for the players of the game. Take any two of those and you'll have a winner. God help us when someone succeeds in getting all 3 together. The other stuff, story, graphics, puzzles, pacing, whatever, they either add or take away from those 3 things depending exactly how they are done. Story does, I think, deserve another special mention, as it has a side role that is not relevant to gameplay, many people play games simply to enjoy narrative, kind of like watching a movie... But I think Games transcend that by being able to implement the gameplay side of things.
OMG, I loved SourceForts. I even managed to get some people to buy DM Source just to play it with me.
Too bad it's fallen into modder hell. And the gameplay balance didn't exist....
<center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/V7urDz_J-Gg"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/V7urDz_J-Gg" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center>
Another thing quite exceptional in SF CTF was that as the scout you were FAST. You were so ###### fast that you were more afraid of making mistake while walking/sprinting and not about getting hit. Some games have fast capturing class (TFC) and some have slow (TF2, UT). IMO speed and difficulty related to avoiding barricades made SF just right.
Yet another interesting aspect of it that unlike other games you could have 1 "stacked" team of 2-5 experienced players playing against 5-15 newbies and game was balanced and fun. I guess it wouldn't hurt if they had something balancing teams according to summed skill/performance and not just head count.
Devs somehow managed to make people abandon the mod. All it needed was at most partypooper protection. I'm curious how their resurrection is progressing.
My IntelliMouse Explorer 4.0 died after playing SF a lot.
here is a video that shows some of the flavor of the mod. the meat of the video doesn't start until about 1:45.
<center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/sNQDLuhmSsg"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/sNQDLuhmSsg" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center>
The learning curve wasn't insurmountable at all, but it required a bit of patience and dedication. A bit more than some people (though fortunately not most) had. Add to that the tendency towards stalemates and the potential for griefing. None of those things necessarily meant that the mod wasn't good, but it certainly wasn't <i>perfect</i>. That's the word I had an issue with.
<a href="http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/6346/the_user_interface_continuum_a_.php" target="_blank">http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/6346...ontinuum_a_.php</a>
<b>Beyond The HUD</b>
<a href="http://publications.lib.chalmers.se/records/fulltext/111921.pdf" target="_blank">PDF - view in browser or Save As...</a>