Not seen that, might explain some odd experiences though.
Well a limit of the number of Hydras / Turrets that could be built within a certain area would semi sort that AND more importantly stop people crashing the server and causing black holes of doom. This is my #1 gameplay change hope. That and making the flamethrower work like a flamethrower and not a flaming sword of death!
Here's hoping "Profile and optimize OnProcessMove()" solves my stuttering problems in the new year.
great+ useful. nice to know whats comming next, especially if its something to look out for, knowing if something is delivered is nice to know (so we test that)
<!--quoteo(post=1820024:date=Dec 29 2010, 12:24 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Dec 29 2010, 12:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1820024"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Can't you just prevent turrets from being built within the same radius (or maybe space), like a standard 3D RTS?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hydras already sort of work that way, except they don't prevent you from building more hydras nearby at all; they prevent you from building res nodes, hives, whips and crags nearby.
Seems kind of backwards and makes it too easy to grief an alien team as a gorge. I'd rather have Hydras unable to be built too close to other structures.
<!--quoteo(post=1820056:date=Dec 30 2010, 03:03 AM:name=Soylent_green)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soylent_green @ Dec 30 2010, 03:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1820056"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hydras already sort of work that way, except they don't prevent you from building more hydras nearby at all; they prevent you from building res nodes, hives, whips and crags nearby.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Make the hive and res node circles impossible to build on with other structures, and have the hydras act like any other building: you can't build a building in the same space as another.
<!--quoteo(post=1819768:date=Dec 27 2010, 04:10 PM:name=Soylent_green)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soylent_green @ Dec 27 2010, 04:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1819768"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Early gameplay is about preventing marines from getting an expansion and slowing their carbon income to the point where you can kill them before they get flame throwers. Late game is all about flame throwers slowly grinding their way across the map versus fades keeping them at bay and skulks constantly harassing any marine structure not actively watched by a marine. This feels grindy and unfun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Overall, this.
Flamethrowers are game-breaking right now and make gameplay 1-dimensional. Once flames are on the map, alien defeat is inevitable. In this current build, the entire game is centered around a single weapon. You might as well just replace "Research Flamethrower" with "Research Game Victory", and have the game end as soon as it is done. However, without flames/nades, marines have no real way of breaking through alien defenses.
As a result, there are really only three game scenarios that keep repeating. (I've been playing rockdown only, but I would imagine the underlying issues would also exist in tram)
Scenario #1:
-Game starts, aliens send a drifter to west, and marine comm immediately sends MAC to west. -MAC arrives two seconds before the drifter does and begins building a cc directly on top of itself. -Skulks arrive, but can't damage the cc faster than the MAC is constructing and cant kill the MAC because it is building from below the floor -Marines arrive and fight with the skulks. Skulks may win the skirmish, but by then 3 more MACs are there and its impossible to stop the cc from finishing -2nd cc finishes, marine comm begins upgrading home base to command facility, and marines turtle hard -A slow alien death to eventual flames is now inevitable
Scenario #2:
-Marine comm doesn't exploit the MAC glitch and/or doesn't understand the necessity of rushing the 2nd cc -Aliens grab the hive in west and another in central while skulks force the marines to stay close to base -Marines get a few turrets and upgrades to help against the skulk attacks -Armed with shotguns and lvl1 upgrades, the marines try to push out of base... -... only to discover that both entrances have been clogged with hydra/whip/crag spam -Tier 1 marines have absolutely nothing to break through the alien contain, so they just sit in base and build turrets -Eventually marines lose to fades, lerks, and gorges spamming hydras
Scenario #3: -At the start of the game, there is a significant imbalance of skill and/or team size in favor of the aliens -Marine IP goes down to skulk rush within the first 5 minutes.
After about the fifth time of playing out each of these scenarios, I'm not having much fun anymore. The games are too repetitive, and defeat in scenarios 1 and 2 are too drawn out. When marines get flames alien defeat is inevitable... but it still takes 15 minutes for the marines to end it. When t1 marines get contained by hydra/whip/crag spam, marine defeat is inevitable, but it still takes 15 minutes for the aliens to bust through the turrets.
While I realize that in this stage of the beta working on functionality is higher priority than tweaking balance, I really hope that the next build addresses some of these issues so that I can enjoy playing again.
@harimau originally there were distance limits set on turrets, but the turret-stacking bug came into effect when turrets were made to operate "more like miniguns" - my guess is they changed some variable name and the distance check fails because of it.
I don't know how balance will work out once all the marine/alien tech is implemented and performance is fixed(and thus flamethrowers don't have such an unfair advantage as the ezmode weapon), but right now they are pretty unfun. They should be nerfed and if they're underpowered later they can be buffed again.
balance (and map design) should allow a skilled lev 1 team to build enough tech to break through and grab a reasonably defended tech node. right now on rockdown once west is taken its gg. that happens in the first 2 minutes of a game.
i was on a game where marines lost after getting flame tech. game was in a long extended ending & people started leaving - <i>including the comm</i>. once the game was down to a 3v3 marines were overzealous on their attack of the hive & the aliens killed the IP & managed to take out the marines. :)
<!--quoteo(post=1820281:date=Dec 30 2010, 10:21 AM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Dec 30 2010, 10:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1820281"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't know how balance will work out once all the marine/alien tech is implemented and performance is fixed(and thus flamethrowers don't have such an unfair advantage as the ezmode weapon), but right now they are pretty unfun. They should be nerfed and if they're underpowered later they can be buffed again.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
agreed, but lets buff the server first. who knows, no lag = greater skill, greater skill > flamethrowers
<!--quoteo(post=1820072:date=Dec 29 2010, 04:34 PM:name=SafetyHelmet)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SafetyHelmet @ Dec 29 2010, 04:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1820072"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Seems kind of backwards and makes it too easy to grief an alien team as a gorge. I'd rather have Hydras unable to be built too close to other structures.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Of course, it's a dead pan joke. It's not actually supposed to work that way and I've had a fair number of games where I'm very peeved that it does.
<!--quoteo(post=1820292:date=Dec 30 2010, 12:51 PM:name=jbaker8935)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jbaker8935 @ Dec 30 2010, 12:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1820292"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->balance (and map design) should allow a skilled lev 1 team to build enough tech to break through and grab a reasonably defended tech node. right now on rockdown once west is taken its gg. that happens in the first 2 minutes of a game.
i was on a game where marines lost after getting flame tech. game was in a long extended ending & people started leaving - <i>including the comm</i>. once the game was down to a 3v3 marines were overzealous on their attack of the hive & the aliens killed the IP & managed to take out the marines. :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's actually not that hideously unbalanced. I've had several games where marines lose after getting flame throwers. The problem is that those games were all very long and very grindy. You need a couple of fades who mostly defend, a comm who mostly replaces whips/hives/crags as they die and a couple of skulks who are willing to spend the next hour finding undefended targets and chomping on them, being barbaqued about once every minute.
If marines coordinate and hit a single point with flame throwers aliens have little chance to defend it. But marines cannot do that; because skulks are forcing them to constantly divide their attention to save structures.
<!--quoteo(post=1820247:date=Dec 30 2010, 05:55 AM:name=Holepuncher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Holepuncher @ Dec 30 2010, 05:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1820247"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Once flames are on the map, alien defeat is inevitable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can come back from this, but the game grinds on and on and on with very little strategy or surprise. The key is to realize that aliens don't need to keep hives, they just need to take down tech nodes faster than they are losing hives. When aliens put up a good fight on rockdown it usually ends up with marines taking AS and aliens taking MS. In one such game I had over 2000 points, mostly from eating turrets, MACs and structures; and about 200 deaths.
West is not essential on rockdown; if you rush, send a pair of marines to central; they don't expect it and they tend to waste time chomping the power-node in west if there are no marines there to greet them. Two marines is big enough to defend effectively and build quickly and small enough to still have defense in MS.
Aliens don't have enough res to lock down all three spare tech nodes in the beginning(at most two, and they'll pick west-only or west and central). They usually pay very little attention to east except for sometimes chomping the power node in the beginnnig. Sending a single ninja-mac in to capture east works more often than not if you have some sense of timing(not right at the beginning, at some point in time where you know that several aliens are busy engaging marines somewhere far from east, such as in west). You do not need to have the power node up in east in order to build the second tech point or upgrade main.
<!--quoteo(post=1820379:date=Dec 30 2010, 05:53 PM:name=Soylent_green)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soylent_green @ Dec 30 2010, 05:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1820379"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's actually not that hideously unbalanced. I've had several games where marines lose after getting flame throwers. The problem is that those games were all very long and very grindy. You need a couple of fades who mostly defend, a comm who mostly replaces whips/hives/crags as they die and a couple of skulks who are willing to spend the next hour finding undefended targets and chomping on them, being barbaqued about once every minute.
If marines coordinate and hit a single point with flame throwers aliens have little chance to defend it. But marines cannot do that; because skulks are forcing them to constantly divide their attention to save structures.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
true. little tougher for marines to break through if denied west. its a given that aliens get lev2 tech which at least gives a fighting chance against lev2 marines.
edit: re above. really need to catch aliens sleeping to nab central - but it can happen. esp if attention is on keeping west.
When are they going to fix the flamethrowers? Fire should collide on all objects, instead of a death-beam going through walls and such. This doesn't seem to have changed in 161.
No it was commissioned by UWE - this guy also made the alien egg and whip models.
I think the idea was that a drifter lands in a spot, then it turns into an incubator (the incubator looks like an inflated drifter) and the structure grows inside it. It would look cool! Once the structure has grown to a small height it could break through the incubator and continue to grow. The incubator wouldn't have to become the same height as a fully grown whip.
<!--quoteo(post=1820545:date=Dec 31 2010, 01:35 PM:name=Runteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runteh @ Dec 31 2010, 01:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1820545"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->On that guys website (see link at bottom of image).
The incubator is where the structures 'grow' apparently. It looks RIDICULOUSLY huge. Surely it would clip walls like a mother?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> that has to be a baby whip, not a fully grown one. To me it looks like when a drifter lands to build, instead of disappearing it morphs into an incubator and the structure grows inside it. I'd be interested to know how it scales with the structure as it builds because if it gets too large it would look funny.
Yup, that is a render of the drifter / structure cocoon. Peregrinus got it exactly right. The drifter lands, grows a bit larger, turns into this cocoon, the alien structures appears inside at their smallest size, both the cocoon and structure grow in size a bit, then the cocoon bursts, the structure finishes growing to its full size and then deploys.
The scale will be = much smaller then shown in that render, they just didn't have the animated small ungrown versions of any of the alien structures, so it looks like they just used the full sized whip.
This has been rigged and animated but is fairly low in priority at the moment to implement in game.
Barlow, why don't you just make sentries really powerful but limit them by increasing cost?
The reason they are spammed is because you need 7 in a room and down every corridor to be effective (i.e prevent an alien getting behind them from the front). To 'limit' them would not change how useless they are.
I think a lot of people would rather see them strategically placed in pairs (ala aliens film) in significant corridors. The negatives to the huge fire power would be the aliens use of vents and the limited attack angle.
Same goes for the flame thrower - why not offset high damage with cost and limits in agility and aim speed when firing, or effects to sight and hearing.
When anything gets powerful in this game and the community complains, it is as if damage is the only way to balance this game. But you need this high positive/high negative aspect to weapons or we'll just see long games with long stalemates.
At the moment it just feels like, I kill you, you kill me and we do it for 45 minutes until a team gets lazy and the other starts to dominate simply because of that.
Things need to be more like chess, where every piece has its 'significant' strengths and weaknesses. At the moment everything seems a bit 'run around firing stuff at the same speed'.
Comments
Well a limit of the number of Hydras / Turrets that could be built within a certain area would semi sort that AND more importantly stop people crashing the server and causing black holes of doom. This is my #1 gameplay change hope. That and making the flamethrower work like a flamethrower and not a flaming sword of death!
Here's hoping "Profile and optimize OnProcessMove()" solves my stuttering problems in the new year.
Hydras already sort of work that way, except they don't prevent you from building more hydras nearby at all; they prevent you from building res nodes, hives, whips and crags nearby.
Make the hive and res node circles impossible to build on with other structures, and have the hydras act like any other building: you can't build a building in the same space as another.
Overall, this.
Flamethrowers are game-breaking right now and make gameplay 1-dimensional. Once flames are on the map, alien defeat is inevitable. In this current build, the entire game is centered around a single weapon. You might as well just replace "Research Flamethrower" with "Research Game Victory", and have the game end as soon as it is done. However, without flames/nades, marines have no real way of breaking through alien defenses.
As a result, there are really only three game scenarios that keep repeating. (I've been playing rockdown only, but I would imagine the underlying issues would also exist in tram)
Scenario #1:
-Game starts, aliens send a drifter to west, and marine comm immediately sends MAC to west.
-MAC arrives two seconds before the drifter does and begins building a cc directly on top of itself.
-Skulks arrive, but can't damage the cc faster than the MAC is constructing and cant kill the MAC because it is building from below the floor
-Marines arrive and fight with the skulks. Skulks may win the skirmish, but by then 3 more MACs are there and its impossible to stop the cc from finishing
-2nd cc finishes, marine comm begins upgrading home base to command facility, and marines turtle hard
-A slow alien death to eventual flames is now inevitable
Scenario #2:
-Marine comm doesn't exploit the MAC glitch and/or doesn't understand the necessity of rushing the 2nd cc
-Aliens grab the hive in west and another in central while skulks force the marines to stay close to base
-Marines get a few turrets and upgrades to help against the skulk attacks
-Armed with shotguns and lvl1 upgrades, the marines try to push out of base...
-... only to discover that both entrances have been clogged with hydra/whip/crag spam
-Tier 1 marines have absolutely nothing to break through the alien contain, so they just sit in base and build turrets
-Eventually marines lose to fades, lerks, and gorges spamming hydras
Scenario #3:
-At the start of the game, there is a significant imbalance of skill and/or team size in favor of the aliens
-Marine IP goes down to skulk rush within the first 5 minutes.
After about the fifth time of playing out each of these scenarios, I'm not having much fun anymore. The games are too repetitive, and defeat in scenarios 1 and 2 are too drawn out. When marines get flames alien defeat is inevitable... but it still takes 15 minutes for the marines to end it. When t1 marines get contained by hydra/whip/crag spam, marine defeat is inevitable, but it still takes 15 minutes for the aliens to bust through the turrets.
While I realize that in this stage of the beta working on functionality is higher priority than tweaking balance, I really hope that the next build addresses some of these issues so that I can enjoy playing again.
Flamethrowers are game-breaking right now and make gameplay 1-dimensional. Once flames are on the map, alien defeat is inevitable.
[snip - scenarios]<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
balance (and map design) should allow a skilled lev 1 team to build enough tech to break through and grab a reasonably defended tech node. right now on rockdown once west is taken its gg. that happens in the first 2 minutes of a game.
i was on a game where marines lost after getting flame tech. game was in a long extended ending & people started leaving - <i>including the comm</i>. once the game was down to a 3v3 marines were overzealous on their attack of the hive & the aliens killed the IP & managed to take out the marines. :)
agreed, but lets buff the server first. who knows, no lag = greater skill, greater skill > flamethrowers
Of course, it's a dead pan joke. It's not actually supposed to work that way and I've had a fair number of games where I'm very peeved that it does.
i was on a game where marines lost after getting flame tech. game was in a long extended ending & people started leaving - <i>including the comm</i>. once the game was down to a 3v3 marines were overzealous on their attack of the hive & the aliens killed the IP & managed to take out the marines. :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's actually not that hideously unbalanced. I've had several games where marines lose after getting flame throwers. The problem is that those games were all very long and very grindy. You need a couple of fades who mostly defend, a comm who mostly replaces whips/hives/crags as they die and a couple of skulks who are willing to spend the next hour finding undefended targets and chomping on them, being barbaqued about once every minute.
If marines coordinate and hit a single point with flame throwers aliens have little chance to defend it. But marines cannot do that; because skulks are forcing them to constantly divide their attention to save structures.
You can come back from this, but the game grinds on and on and on with very little strategy or surprise. The key is to realize that aliens don't need to keep hives, they just need to take down tech nodes faster than they are losing hives. When aliens put up a good fight on rockdown it usually ends up with marines taking AS and aliens taking MS. In one such game I had over 2000 points, mostly from eating turrets, MACs and structures; and about 200 deaths.
West is not essential on rockdown; if you rush, send a pair of marines to central; they don't expect it and they tend to waste time chomping the power-node in west if there are no marines there to greet them. Two marines is big enough to defend effectively and build quickly and small enough to still have defense in MS.
Aliens don't have enough res to lock down all three spare tech nodes in the beginning(at most two, and they'll pick west-only or west and central). They usually pay very little attention to east except for sometimes chomping the power node in the beginnnig. Sending a single ninja-mac in to capture east works more often than not if you have some sense of timing(not right at the beginning, at some point in time where you know that several aliens are busy engaging marines somewhere far from east, such as in west). You do not need to have the power node up in east in order to build the second tech point or upgrade main.
If marines coordinate and hit a single point with flame throwers aliens have little chance to defend it. But marines cannot do that; because skulks are forcing them to constantly divide their attention to save structures.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
true. little tougher for marines to break through if denied west. its a given that aliens get lev2 tech which at least gives a fighting chance against lev2 marines.
edit: re above. really need to catch aliens sleeping to nab central - but it can happen. esp if attention is on keeping west.
I wonder if refract-like shader is planned for flamethrower or will they always look like from Team Fortress Classic.
<img src="http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/3741/ns2drifteregg.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
The incubator is where the structures 'grow' apparently. It looks RIDICULOUSLY huge. Surely it would clip walls like a mother?
Also, that image is ###### nice, I can't wait until they implement that.
I think the idea was that a drifter lands in a spot, then it turns into an incubator (the incubator looks like an inflated drifter) and the structure grows inside it. It would look cool! Once the structure has grown to a small height it could break through the incubator and continue to grow. The incubator wouldn't have to become the same height as a fully grown whip.
The incubator is where the structures 'grow' apparently. It looks RIDICULOUSLY huge. Surely it would clip walls like a mother?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
that has to be a baby whip, not a fully grown one. To me it looks like when a drifter lands to build, instead of disappearing it morphs into an incubator and the structure grows inside it. I'd be interested to know how it scales with the structure as it builds because if it gets too large it would look funny.
edit: darn beaten to it by peregrinus
The scale will be = much smaller then shown in that render, they just didn't have the animated small ungrown versions of any of the alien structures, so it looks like they just used the full sized whip.
This has been rigged and animated but is fairly low in priority at the moment to implement in game.
--Cory
Hopefully the Hive and Harvester get the same treatment as well.
maybe limit the amount of turrets and hydras per area? didnt we learn this lesson in NS1?
The reason they are spammed is because you need 7 in a room and down every corridor to be effective (i.e prevent an alien getting behind them from the front). To 'limit' them would not change how useless they are.
I think a lot of people would rather see them strategically placed in pairs (ala aliens film) in significant corridors. The negatives to the huge fire power would be the aliens use of vents and the limited attack angle.
Same goes for the flame thrower - why not offset high damage with cost and limits in agility and aim speed when firing, or effects to sight and hearing.
When anything gets powerful in this game and the community complains, it is as if damage is the only way to balance this game. But you need this high positive/high negative aspect to weapons or we'll just see long games with long stalemates.
At the moment it just feels like, I kill you, you kill me and we do it for 45 minutes until a team gets lazy and the other starts to dominate simply because of that.
Things need to be more like chess, where every piece has its 'significant' strengths and weaknesses. At the moment everything seems a bit 'run around firing stuff at the same speed'.