More weapon selection
ryanericw
Join Date: 2009-08-27 Member: 68624Members
Join Date: 2009-08-27 Member: 68624Members
Add all weapons from the specialists into ns2. Problem with games no a days is there is VERY LITTLE selection of different weapons... I love the choices, and realistic part of being about to choose between a ppk, a mp5, and a sniper. Let's not forget the numerous other amounts of hand guns, the glock, the springfield 1911, desert eagle, five seven, etc.
Sniping skulks....now that just sounds badass...
Sniping skulks....now that just sounds badass...
Comments
Yes a variety of weapons adds something to games but in this case it could also take something away and would also leave plenty of places for balancing issues. Should lerks be able to switch out their tallons for dif damage? Should we just turn this into a fpsmmorpg like planetside or something?
This isn't a player vs player shoot em up game. This is player vs alien player and the maps for the most part are not going to provide a great sniping position. Sure you could man down the hall but a sneaky skulk could easily take out any sniper.
and yet you complain like a little girl wanting a new barbie doll
for shame
Adding all those guns would take up some modelling time (and money). NS2 isn't a Half Life 1 mod, so that isn't as small a deal. It's up to the developers to decide if the modelling time would be a worthy cost.
I think NS2 will be interesting enough without 30 different guns.
On the other hand, if its not interesting enough, 30 different guns won't help it.
Chess is a good and popular game, but no one has decided to add 30 more pieces to make it more interesting, because it wouldn't.
The problem with dreaming about what a game could be like, is that you have a 1000 ideas of what 'could be cool' (in a film esq kind of way) but in actuality players do not understand the complexities of how the system works as a whole. It is the whole game play vs realism philosophy that tends to be mentioned a lot.
What you do have to remember is that a game can not be everything, so it is better to define what the game is about and build around that. Design is all about constraints and working around them and the ability to communicate everything effectively to the player.
Team based games are actually very complicated in my mind, just by the organisation/communication between players in a level. The team play/communication aspect is huge, and you can see this in some very popular games. I don't think I need to mention them.
If a player understands that (for example) a fade is in play, then a suitable purchase is the shotgun. That is perfect. The game can be balanced a lot easier, and it promotes understanding. Give a player 5 choices, and not only is it a waste of time but it removes a players understanding from the game. It won't be fun anymore.
We'd all like it so you could become a lerk, pick a pipe off the wall and bash other players in the head and then pick one up and drop him in a vat of acid, which then explodes his grenades in turn emptying the vat over the rest of the marines. But it is not going to happen.
NS2 or everything/games in general are better that they are unique in how they are positioned within the market, than trying to be everything.
Secondly, there is a fine line between complete realism and things taken from realistic standpoints.
I really can't stand slow paced movement games as all the war crap coming out these days. Terribly boring. TS was far from realistic, yet we had tons of weapons to choose from which made endless speculation for alternative game play and modifications to enhanced enjoyment.
Just something to speculate on. ~6 Weapons gets old fast.
So instead of adding 10 LMGs that are only slightly different from each other we better focus on creating more weapon categories and maybe the ability to create those little difference with weapon modifications instead of completely new weapons. This also saves alot of time when it comes to modeling.
Currently we know of the following possible weapons
Flamethrower
HMG
LMG
Pistol/Tazer
Handaxe
Other possible weapons include:
Grenade Launcher
Hand grenades
Dual miniguns as part of the HA
Thats 8 Completely different weapon categories.
Now lets tweak the following stats: ROF; damage, reload time, clip size, draw time, initial accuracy, spare ammo, bullet spread, max range, min range, damage fall off, max flame length, flame trajectory, burn time, damage over time.
Now randomly distribute +-10% changes from the base stats to different guns and do a bunch of new models and there you have it. Lots of "different" future guns.
Instead we could just stick with our 8 categories and add a few potential mods, like different bullet types for varying effects (poison, freeze, burn, acid, phase shift, electricity etc.)
Then lets add optional sights for different zoom levels, maybe a flashlight or an addon flare launcher.
And we have variation to the max, without tweaking numbers, but instead we created variation through the introduction of new features and there is also the possibility to add alien interaction to the whole ammo thing like this:
Certain Aliens are vulurable to certain ammo types.
Certain Alien upgrades interact with certain ammo types.
-A cloaked alien hit by incinerate ammo will trail visible trails around for a few seconds.
-Aliens standing in a water puddle will be damaged by elec bullets, even if you hit only the water.
-Acid bullets permanently corrode armor.
etc.
etc.
Variaty through simple number tweaking is just cheap. Instead we need different ways to let guns interact with the environment and other players,
Before FocusedWolf gets here.
The Specialists is by far my favorite HL MOD of all time... just behind NS1. I should LOVE having that much choice in weapons, knifes, kung fu melee style...
... but I don't.
Would you like to get aliens and mutations in The Specialists ? hell no you wouldn't. It would have sucked. Badly. And you wouldn't like screwing that so so special mood and style you get in TS, would you ?
So why screwing up NS instead ?
you dont play ns for the weapon selection though, you play it for the unique strategy, tactics and unique team play
You can only go so far with 'shoots lots of bullets' 'shoots less bullets but more powerful ones' 'shoots bullets more accurately' before you basically turn everything into a reskin of an almost identical gun.
I like that idea, implement now.
today games tend to limit choices (cut-backs on development), just throw away stuff that is niche and simplify everything.
if NS2 is not about guns, why not have only ONE multifunctional gun like in Shaterred Horizon?
it's realistic on many levels, faster to model/texture/animate, newbie players don't have a problem with "oh my, what gun should I use?", there is no over/under-powered-ness etc.
only pros!
you can list NS2 weapons and there will be like ~10 or so, but in fact, what you get to choose from is really just LMG/HMG (as one option, because hardly anyone would use LMG when HMGs becomes available), Shotgun, GL and Flamethrower (?).
so, 4 guns? is that it?
(secondary armanent like axe, pistols, mines, grenades are just situational aid, they don't serve a real purpose in a regular fight)
My vote would go for at least 5 projectile guns, each specialized in a different way + a few unconventional damage ones.
Screw the balance! that's what patches are for. it's not scissors/paper-rock game for crying out loud.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->(secondary armanent like axe, pistols, mines, grenades are just situational aid, they don't serve a real purpose in a regular fight)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Knives and pistols were always used in regular fights to great effect. Run out of a LMG clip? Use your pistol, then get out your knife and kill the skulks. I admit the mines were used as defensive tools as well as to set up ambushes but they were a regular part of the game as was using the grenade (although that was added later) to clear out rooms.
So what you really get to choose from is; Ballistic Damage(LMG), Increased ballistic damage(HMG), close range damage(Shotty) or AoE weapons (GL/Flamethrower). I mean, I can think of a few more weapons that would fill niches such a sniper rifle but why the hell would you want one of those in NS?
If new weapons really need to be added because we just can't handle not having 15 different weapons then Charlie and the developers will look into it. However, I think it will be completely fine and we don't need a different gun for each niche in the game.
no he doesnt. he wanted an mp5 in ns.
<!--quoteo(post=1780311:date=Jul 18 2010, 05:36 PM:name=rein4ce)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rein4ce @ Jul 18 2010, 05:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1780311"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->today games tend to limit choices (cut-backs on development), just throw away stuff that is niche and simplify everything.
if NS2 is not about guns, why not have only ONE multifunctional gun like in Shaterred Horizon?
it's realistic on many levels, faster to model/texture/animate, newbie players don't have a problem with "oh my, what gun should I use?", there is no over/under-powered-ness etc.
only pros!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ns weapons are designed to be used for certain purposes. gl cleans structures, hmg for sustained and surpressive fire, lmg as your starter and shotgun for high damage up close. if ns had 1 multifunctional gun, then that would be ripping of shattered horizon.
<!--quoteo(post=1780311:date=Jul 18 2010, 05:36 PM:name=rein4ce)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rein4ce @ Jul 18 2010, 05:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1780311"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->you can list NS2 weapons and there will be like ~10 or so, but in fact, what you get to choose from is really just LMG/HMG (as one option, because hardly anyone would use LMG when HMGs becomes available), Shotgun, GL and Flamethrower (?).
so, 4 guns? is that it?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
where did you get ~10 from if you counted 4? GL is now an attachment for the assault rifle so theres the reason for sticking with the assault rifle when hmgs become available.
<!--quoteo(post=1780311:date=Jul 18 2010, 05:36 PM:name=rein4ce)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rein4ce @ Jul 18 2010, 05:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1780311"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->(secondary armanent like axe, pistols, mines, grenades are just situational aid, they don't serve a real purpose in a regular fight)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
of course they do, thats why they are secondary weapons.
<!--quoteo(post=1780311:date=Jul 18 2010, 05:36 PM:name=rein4ce)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rein4ce @ Jul 18 2010, 05:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1780311"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My vote would go for at least 5 projectile guns, each specialized in a different way + a few unconventional damage ones.
Screw the balance! that's what patches are for. it's not scissors/paper-rock game for crying out loud.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
and what purpose would they serve? you dont put guns in for the sake of putting guns in. if theres anlready a weapon for a role, then its a waste of time having another one for the same role
You didn't get the point, did you?
<!--quoteo(post=1780609:date=Jul 19 2010, 04:40 AM:name=Loey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Loey @ Jul 19 2010, 04:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1780609"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->ns weapons are designed to be used for certain purposes. gl cleans structures, hmg for sustained and surpressive fire, lmg as your starter and shotgun for high damage up close. if ns had 1 multifunctional gun, then that would be ripping of shattered horizon.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You know, idea of one gun wasn't invented in SH... You are trying to overanalize the mechanics of weaponry - again, this isn't chess. Each goal can be achieved by many different ways, what about improvisation?
So if you have a GL and see a skulk you just wait for you death, because "GL's purpose is to destroy structures, crap, I will take LMG next time"?
<!--quoteo(post=1780609:date=Jul 19 2010, 04:40 AM:name=Loey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Loey @ Jul 19 2010, 04:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1780609"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->where did you get ~10 from if you counted 4? GL is now an attachment for the assault rifle so theres the reason for sticking with the assault rifle when hmgs become available.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So still 4 weapons to _choose _from.
<!--quoteo(post=1780609:date=Jul 19 2010, 04:40 AM:name=Loey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Loey @ Jul 19 2010, 04:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1780609"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->of course they do, thats why they are secondary weapons.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Secondary means used occasionally, as a last resort weapons. And what that means is 99% of the time you will be running with one of the 4 primary weapons, which WILL become boring very quickly - especially when you are destined to play a very specific role in the game, with no room for improv.
<!--quoteo(post=1780609:date=Jul 19 2010, 04:40 AM:name=Loey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Loey @ Jul 19 2010, 04:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1780609"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->and what purpose would they serve? you dont put guns in for the sake of putting guns in. if theres anlready a weapon for a role, then its a waste of time having another one for the same role<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And now the best part:
Each weapon shoots in a different way - thus it plays very different, so that each player can find one that best suits him and specialize in it. Uzi like submachineguns can have a great rate of fire, big recoil and small clip, deadly for multiple enemies at close range (+ bigger movement speed), bulk shot shoitgun can deal a lot of damage at one target at close range, medium rifles can do the average of all weapons, heavy machinegun with slow but strong explosive bullets, long reload time, rotary action machine gun with lots of ammo to cover whole area with fire, precise single-shot weapons (sniper, laser gun), indirect fire weapons (GL, rocket launcher) etc
- just to name a few to get your imagination going...
by your logic there should be only two guns: for killing aliens and for killing structures. Because why duplicate the ones that already serve their purpose?...
These choices bring variety of options and tactics to develop by players, and with your "limited purpose approach" all tactics are fixed, already predesigned and the start.
I much prefer the direction they're taking with the upgrades for the LMG keeping it useful throughout the game. They're also adding in different damage types for the weapons so they will all have a specific use in the game (the Ax will probably be faster for destroying res nodes than the rifle for example, and the pistol in NS1 was great for sniping aliens from afar).
You give an example of Bad Company, well let's have a look back a few years - Battlefield 2 - lots of guns, but still most of them are being used by everybody (because each is good/different in it's own way), The Specialists Mod the OP posted - I have never seen such rich collection of guns in any game - and still almost each of these were popular, Team Fortress 2 - another example, relatively small maps and gameplay depth, but so many interesting options to choose from.
I just don't see how limiting the amount of weapons that are usable by players would not allow any improvisation in the game whatsoever. What about the commanders? Surely their tactics are quite fluid and can be changed accordingly.
The only benefit that I can see from adding more weapons is expanding the pool of the "limited choice" tactics. Once someone employs a new tactic or a new way of using a specific weapon within the game, that becomes a generic tactic. Sure, for the first few weeks that becomes the cookie cutter tactic choice for the players but after that people make a new tactic to counter that one and so on, so forth.
By adding new weapons you simply change the size of the pool, not give it an infinite amount of choice. No matter how much I want to sling together a HMG and 2 shotguns in some kind of crazy ass super weapon, I can't.