<!--quoteo(post=1777365:date=Jul 7 2010, 09:54 PM:name=brownymaster)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (brownymaster @ Jul 7 2010, 09:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1777365"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->However, what made more money? TF2 was a huge success, yet has much less skill involved than TFC or QWTF ever had. The question is really can NS2 afford to be a hardcore game like starcraft yet allow options for less skilled to still enjoy the game (custom games).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Exactly this. I've heard also that LoL is the poor man's HoN, and games like EVE: Online are unapologetically complex. The relationship between accessibility and hardcore skill is strongly negatively correlated, which can and does affect market success and niche-ness. Sadly, there are those who believe that market success is the only success to be had and fail completely to see why games like TF2 are a let-down to the original community, or are clueless enough to refer to a game without dedicated servers, skill, originality, and held together by a flimsy piece of netcode called IWnet as "high quality" and "polished".
While LoL has been slower to the punch, it was selected for the WCG Grand Final as a Promotional Game. <a href="http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=153005" target="_blank">http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=153005</a>
Of course, that's nothing compared to the giant prizes in the $10K NEVA HoN games or the $1K HONCAST weekly tournies (sponsored by S2 Games).
The problem is yes no built-in spectating has really screwed them over so far, and HoN has been much more active much earlier. However, LoL is starting up its first global league Season One with ladder and teams and everything.
I would be careful about claiming LoL is "dumbed down". Really the only major feature people seem to cite is the removal of denying, and frankly I think it's a wash. It forces players to target last hits and pushing and harass instead of tower hugging. Also, the cash shop isn't really a factor since you can easily unlock heroes just by playing. In fact, I'm playing it solely via never paying real cash ever. Also, several hardcore dedicated DotA players I know jumped onto the LoL game. In fact, my DotA friends are about 60/40 LoL/HoN right now. I wish Riot Games would publish online user numbers like HoN so we could compare demographics/popularity, but alas. Still, HoN is holding out around 10K users at the lower peak times.
BTW, yes I do play HoN as well. I'm about equal skilled on both, which is about above average but not godly.
EDIT: If Facebook is a good indicator, currently there are 20K LoL Fans vs 40K HoN Fans. *shrugs*
<!--quoteo(post=1777404:date=Jul 8 2010, 08:29 AM:name=spellman23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spellman23 @ Jul 8 2010, 08:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1777404"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->While LoL has been slower to the punch, it was selected for the WCG Grand Final as a Promotional Game. <a href="http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=153005" target="_blank">http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=153005</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm in no way claiming anything about LoL in particular, but WCG has been notorious for supporting games for completely different reasons than their competetive potential. LoL doesn't major publisher or shiny gimmicky graphics with it, so I'm not completely sure about the logic this time though.
<!--quoteo(post=1777413:date=Jul 8 2010, 01:44 AM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Jul 8 2010, 01:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1777413"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm in no way claiming anything about LoL in particular, but WCG has been notorious for supporting games for completely different reasons than their competetive potential. LoL doesn't major publisher or shiny gimmicky graphics with it, so I'm not completely sure about the logic this time though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you want to slam it for something in particular, could be the amount of star power on the dev team. Guinsoo and Pendragon alone have huge sway in the PR department.
Gotta agree with drown, I think now you guys are trying to go for what would server the competitive community more/is skill reduced still viable for comp. I still believe most people think of HoN as the better DoTA heir because it changes the least and keeps the hardcore components, and an image like that could swing in either direction for NS2.
<!--quoteo(post=1777521:date=Jul 8 2010, 08:52 PM:name=brownymaster)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (brownymaster @ Jul 8 2010, 08:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1777521"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Gotta agree with drown, I think now you guys are trying to go for what would server the competitive community more/is skill reduced still viable for comp. I still believe most people think of HoN as the better DoTA heir because it changes the least and keeps the hardcore components, and an image like that could swing in either direction for NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Except NS2 will NOT be a re-skin of NS1 on a better engine. It's to be a complete sequel. Better, stronger, picked and prodded into something differet and unique, yet enough from the original so you can feel at home.
<!--quoteo(post=1777524:date=Jul 9 2010, 05:18 AM:name=spellman23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spellman23 @ Jul 9 2010, 05:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1777524"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Except NS2 will NOT be a re-skin of NS1 on a better engine. It's to be a complete sequel. Better, stronger, picked and prodded into something differet and unique, yet enough from the original so you can feel at home.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'd have to say HoN is more than a reskin (a lot more new heroes and a lot less old heroes, new items that are constantly balanced). Again, HoN is 2/3's DoTA whereas NS2 is going to be 1/3 NS (from a quote somewhere) so that is a point. But it does show that appealing to the old is possibly viable for keeping a userbase (again, DoTA's user base was stolen by HoN because DoTA was well alive before HoN showed up but has greatly died down, while NS is pretty dead with ~10 servers that matter). Another question is will a sequel with a much smaller userbase than other games be able to pick up sales/support for a sequel that many people have never heard about? I think NS2 can actual get decent exposure to new players, but will it be able to hold? What is the release going to bring that will keep the community going?
Also, NS is going to be a hard game to match up to, as it took quite a many patches to reach it's "best" level. Of course, I believe it can be done since these are the dev's that made it, but sometimes it hurts to let go of loved elements of the old game and kind of depressing to the veteran's nostalgia. I still trust their vision (special edition preorder) but it can't hurt to push the importance of some older features of the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1777521:date=Jul 9 2010, 03:52 AM:name=brownymaster)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (brownymaster @ Jul 9 2010, 03:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1777521"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Gotta agree with drown, I think now you guys are trying to go for what would server the competitive community more/is skill reduced still viable for comp. I still believe most people think of HoN as the better DoTA heir because it changes the least and keeps the hardcore components, and an image like that could swing in either direction for NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Keep in mind that a lot of people also choose change because of that momentarily freshness. You see games often adding completely irrelevant abilities just to seem innovative for a moment. I doubt LoL does that, but the general freshness often lures people in, while the system isn't still viable in longer use.
I never played DotA for more than a dozen AI rounds and a handful of online rounds, so I had absolutely no clue how that works. At that point HoN seems one of the most interesting games avaible for online play. I've yet to test LoL, but HoN definitely isn't bad at all.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->HoN > LoL- same genre more competitive<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I dont wanna risk a flame war but LoL has a lot good stuff that shouldnt be missed, and just because some "pros" (lol) say HoN is the way to go or LoL is the way to go - doesnt makes it true. I tryed both, u should too.
<a href="http://www.leagueoflegends.com/articles/dota_and_lol" target="_blank">http://www.leagueoflegends.com/articles/dota_and_lol</a> DotA and LoL differences.
Livestreams of interesst: <a href="http://www.livestream.com/clgame" target="_blank">http://www.livestream.com/clgame</a>
<!--quoteo(post=1777535:date=Jul 9 2010, 10:17 AM:name=Koruyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koruyo @ Jul 9 2010, 10:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1777535"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><a href="http://www.leagueoflegends.com/articles/dota_and_lol" target="_blank">http://www.leagueoflegends.com/articles/dota_and_lol</a> DotA and LoL differences.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I see none that hon doesnt have, unless they have completed their "5v5 clan automatch", minimap waypoint maybe? Also everything they say about denying = bull######.
Just wondering and off topic like it's already gone, what is the whole summoner system? It sounds like something that basically gives longer players an advantage over newer players, but I don't actually know. One thing I like about most FPSs and RTS games is that every starts with equal access to all abilities and functions, even if not equal knowledge or skill. Unless the system has a very low "level" cap for it, that's something I'd rather not put up with unless they have a scrim mode.
<!--quoteo(post=1777600:date=Jul 9 2010, 11:26 AM:name=brownymaster)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (brownymaster @ Jul 9 2010, 11:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1777600"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just wondering and off topic like it's already gone, what is the whole summoner system? It sounds like something that basically gives longer players an advantage over newer players, but I don't actually know. One thing I like about most FPSs and RTS games is that every starts with equal access to all abilities and functions, even if not equal knowledge or skill. Unless the system has a very low "level" cap for it, that's something I'd rather not put up with unless they have a scrim mode.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Basically with summoner levels you gain access to more summoner spells which are situational fairly large cool down spells. You get them all at level 12.
It also lets you place more Runes and take more Masteries. These are again small upgrades, like a single rune giving you +0.02 Attack or +15 HP for one of the mid-level masteries. The matchmaking also tries to account for summoner level when matching. PS, Runes are only purchaseable using influence points, which you get by playing the game.
Once you hit lv30 (I hear it takes about 100 games) everything caps out. You can pay real money to get boosters to gain XP and level up your summoner faster.
So really it's about 10-15% Summoner stuff, another 20-25% hero selection, the rest is skill and teamwork.
Part of their goal was to give a sense of progression to your game, open up more customization, and slowly introduce players to the complexity instead of "Welcome to League of Legends, learn all the 50+ heroes you <i>might</i> run into on the field! If you don't, expect to die alot!".
If you want a more in-depth feature-by-feature comparison: <a href="http://soapboxfornoone.blogspot.com/2010/06/hon-vs-lol-vs-dota.html" target="_blank">http://soapboxfornoone.blogspot.com/2010/0...ol-vs-dota.html</a>
5v5 auto-match currently does happen by forming and queuing a 5-man team (due to the team ELO boost you will HAVE to fight another 5-man team) but a more rigorous one with Season One is coming out.
-------------------------------- Back on topic, @brownymaster I don't think we're losing too many "older features". I mean, the core ideas are still there in terms of a tech tree, asymmetric races, res nodes, etc. It's still going to be a very strong FPS/RTS blend unlike those FPS with RTS element games.
That being said, do we want to try and "steal" the NS1 userbase? It's a fairly small active group now, so we can't do the HoN takes the DotA crowd move. Really NS2 will have to try and stand on its own. Especially for those who tried NS1, thought it had good ideas, but didn't take the time to see it all the way through (of which I personally know several).
I think the 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 quoted concept from the devs is a good idea. The majority of the game is either lifted or mimics NS1 elements, but the last 1/3 is completely fresh and will hopefully open up the game to new players who are looking for a dynamic visceral experience. I still claim that there's plenty of wiggle room where we can make the learning curve much easier to integrate new players while sacrificing minimal "hardcore" stuff, if any. Sure going to either extreme causes exclusion of the other, but sacrificing small amount of one to gain tremendously in the other is totally worth it imo.
Comments
Exactly this. I've heard also that LoL is the poor man's HoN, and games like EVE: Online are unapologetically complex. The relationship between accessibility and hardcore skill is strongly negatively correlated, which can and does affect market success and niche-ness. Sadly, there are those who believe that market success is the only success to be had and fail completely to see why games like TF2 are a let-down to the original community, or are clueless enough to refer to a game without dedicated servers, skill, originality, and held together by a flimsy piece of netcode called IWnet as "high quality" and "polished".
<a href="http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=153005" target="_blank">http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=153005</a>
Of course, that's nothing compared to the giant prizes in the $10K NEVA HoN games or the $1K HONCAST weekly tournies (sponsored by S2 Games).
The problem is yes no built-in spectating has really screwed them over so far, and HoN has been much more active much earlier. However, LoL is starting up its first global league Season One with ladder and teams and everything.
I would be careful about claiming LoL is "dumbed down". Really the only major feature people seem to cite is the removal of denying, and frankly I think it's a wash. It forces players to target last hits and pushing and harass instead of tower hugging. Also, the cash shop isn't really a factor since you can easily unlock heroes just by playing. In fact, I'm playing it solely via never paying real cash ever. Also, several hardcore dedicated DotA players I know jumped onto the LoL game. In fact, my DotA friends are about 60/40 LoL/HoN right now. I wish Riot Games would publish online user numbers like HoN so we could compare demographics/popularity, but alas. Still, HoN is holding out around 10K users at the lower peak times.
BTW, yes I do play HoN as well. I'm about equal skilled on both, which is about above average but not godly.
EDIT: If Facebook is a good indicator, currently there are 20K LoL Fans vs 40K HoN Fans. *shrugs*
<a href="http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=153005" target="_blank">http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=153005</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm in no way claiming anything about LoL in particular, but WCG has been notorious for supporting games for completely different reasons than their competetive potential. LoL doesn't major publisher or shiny gimmicky graphics with it, so I'm not completely sure about the logic this time though.
If you want to slam it for something in particular, could be the amount of star power on the dev team. Guinsoo and Pendragon alone have huge sway in the PR department.
Except NS2 will NOT be a re-skin of NS1 on a better engine. It's to be a complete sequel. Better, stronger, picked and prodded into something differet and unique, yet enough from the original so you can feel at home.
I'd have to say HoN is more than a reskin (a lot more new heroes and a lot less old heroes, new items that are constantly balanced). Again, HoN is 2/3's DoTA whereas NS2 is going to be 1/3 NS (from a quote somewhere) so that is a point. But it does show that appealing to the old is possibly viable for keeping a userbase (again, DoTA's user base was stolen by HoN because DoTA was well alive before HoN showed up but has greatly died down, while NS is pretty dead with ~10 servers that matter). Another question is will a sequel with a much smaller userbase than other games be able to pick up sales/support for a sequel that many people have never heard about? I think NS2 can actual get decent exposure to new players, but will it be able to hold? What is the release going to bring that will keep the community going?
Also, NS is going to be a hard game to match up to, as it took quite a many patches to reach it's "best" level. Of course, I believe it can be done since these are the dev's that made it, but sometimes it hurts to let go of loved elements of the old game and kind of depressing to the veteran's nostalgia. I still trust their vision (special edition preorder) but it can't hurt to push the importance of some older features of the game.
Keep in mind that a lot of people also choose change because of that momentarily freshness. You see games often adding completely irrelevant abilities just to seem innovative for a moment. I doubt LoL does that, but the general freshness often lures people in, while the system isn't still viable in longer use.
I never played DotA for more than a dozen AI rounds and a handful of online rounds, so I had absolutely no clue how that works. At that point HoN seems one of the most interesting games avaible for online play. I've yet to test LoL, but HoN definitely isn't bad at all.
I dont wanna risk a flame war but LoL has a lot good stuff that shouldnt be missed, and just because some "pros" (lol) say HoN is the way to go or LoL is the way to go - doesnt makes it true. I tryed both, u should too.
<a href="http://www.leagueoflegends.com/articles/dota_and_lol" target="_blank">http://www.leagueoflegends.com/articles/dota_and_lol</a>
DotA and LoL differences.
Livestreams of interesst:
<a href="http://www.livestream.com/clgame" target="_blank">http://www.livestream.com/clgame</a>
If i still wanted to play dota, id play dota...
DotA and LoL differences.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I see none that hon doesnt have, unless they have completed their "5v5 clan automatch", minimap waypoint maybe? Also everything they say about denying = bull######.
Basically with summoner levels you gain access to more summoner spells which are situational fairly large cool down spells. You get them all at level 12.
It also lets you place more Runes and take more Masteries. These are again small upgrades, like a single rune giving you +0.02 Attack or +15 HP for one of the mid-level masteries. The matchmaking also tries to account for summoner level when matching. PS, Runes are only purchaseable using influence points, which you get by playing the game.
Once you hit lv30 (I hear it takes about 100 games) everything caps out. You can pay real money to get boosters to gain XP and level up your summoner faster.
So really it's about 10-15% Summoner stuff, another 20-25% hero selection, the rest is skill and teamwork.
Part of their goal was to give a sense of progression to your game, open up more customization, and slowly introduce players to the complexity instead of "Welcome to League of Legends, learn all the 50+ heroes you <i>might</i> run into on the field! If you don't, expect to die alot!".
If you want a more in-depth feature-by-feature comparison: <a href="http://soapboxfornoone.blogspot.com/2010/06/hon-vs-lol-vs-dota.html" target="_blank">http://soapboxfornoone.blogspot.com/2010/0...ol-vs-dota.html</a>
5v5 auto-match currently does happen by forming and queuing a 5-man team (due to the team ELO boost you will HAVE to fight another 5-man team) but a more rigorous one with Season One is coming out.
--------------------------------
Back on topic, @brownymaster I don't think we're losing too many "older features". I mean, the core ideas are still there in terms of a tech tree, asymmetric races, res nodes, etc. It's still going to be a very strong FPS/RTS blend unlike those FPS with RTS element games.
That being said, do we want to try and "steal" the NS1 userbase? It's a fairly small active group now, so we can't do the HoN takes the DotA crowd move. Really NS2 will have to try and stand on its own. Especially for those who tried NS1, thought it had good ideas, but didn't take the time to see it all the way through (of which I personally know several).
I think the 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 quoted concept from the devs is a good idea. The majority of the game is either lifted or mimics NS1 elements, but the last 1/3 is completely fresh and will hopefully open up the game to new players who are looking for a dynamic visceral experience. I still claim that there's plenty of wiggle room where we can make the learning curve much easier to integrate new players while sacrificing minimal "hardcore" stuff, if any. Sure going to either extreme causes exclusion of the other, but sacrificing small amount of one to gain tremendously in the other is totally worth it imo.