No Scouting in NS2
yourbonesakin
Join Date: 2005-08-06 Member: 57682Members
Join Date: 2005-08-06 Member: 57682Members
In NS1, the aliens never had to scout what tech the Marines were going for. The only scouting the Marines had to do was find out which hive the aliens spawned at.
This is a symptom of stagnant play. The cause of this was low strategic intricacy. NS1 was and is an awesome game and is better in a myriad of ways that many standalone games are not. However, strategic intricacy is not one of them.
Aliens always go Movement Chambers and then save for hives and fades. There are no other choices. Hopefully this is not the case in NS2. <b>We would miss half of the point of strategy gaming, which is Intellience.</b>
Without strategic intricacy, there's no point to scouting the opponent's base. There's also no anticipation of different build choices. No room for creativity. And without creativity, the stratagems used become stagnant and predictable. That's "un fun" for an RTS.
So I would like to see a lot of strategic intricacy for NS2. Something comparable to SC2 (not SC1, which is very stagnant now) in terms of ability diversity, weapon behavior, and tech tree intricacy. Obviously some things can't transfer over because in NS2, every unit is controlled by a player. Instant win scenarios, stuns, handicapping, stalls, etc. can never happen or must be tightly controlled.
NS2 is both an FPS and an RTS. Because of that, if both of its sections are just half fun, then it will be about as much fun as a purebreed FPS or RTS which is very fun. But I say "why not?" Why not go all the way in both sections? NS2 could be the best FPS of the year <b>AND</b> the best RTS of the year. Honestly, mechanics influence entertainment more than intense graphics and physics engines, so Unknown Worlds is not as disregardable in this area as we all might think.
This is a symptom of stagnant play. The cause of this was low strategic intricacy. NS1 was and is an awesome game and is better in a myriad of ways that many standalone games are not. However, strategic intricacy is not one of them.
Aliens always go Movement Chambers and then save for hives and fades. There are no other choices. Hopefully this is not the case in NS2. <b>We would miss half of the point of strategy gaming, which is Intellience.</b>
Without strategic intricacy, there's no point to scouting the opponent's base. There's also no anticipation of different build choices. No room for creativity. And without creativity, the stratagems used become stagnant and predictable. That's "un fun" for an RTS.
So I would like to see a lot of strategic intricacy for NS2. Something comparable to SC2 (not SC1, which is very stagnant now) in terms of ability diversity, weapon behavior, and tech tree intricacy. Obviously some things can't transfer over because in NS2, every unit is controlled by a player. Instant win scenarios, stuns, handicapping, stalls, etc. can never happen or must be tightly controlled.
NS2 is both an FPS and an RTS. Because of that, if both of its sections are just half fun, then it will be about as much fun as a purebreed FPS or RTS which is very fun. But I say "why not?" Why not go all the way in both sections? NS2 could be the best FPS of the year <b>AND</b> the best RTS of the year. Honestly, mechanics influence entertainment more than intense graphics and physics engines, so Unknown Worlds is not as disregardable in this area as we all might think.
Comments
Marine commander does quite a bit of scouting. He keeps the alien node count under control, keeps the hive timing checked, sometimes reports incoming enemies and spots any vulnerable chambers on the field. It's probably used more efficiently because it's more of an individual driven task than a team effort like it is on alien team. Still, even on marines it's often somewhat difficult to make use of the scouting information because the lack of coordination unless you're running an orgnaized team, which can respond quick enoough.
Still, even at best scouting isn't anywhere as interesting as it could be. +1 for paying extra attention on encouraging and making scouting interesting.
I'd wager no (no offense intended or anything) as there are a load of other options than MC for an alien team and which were frequently carried out successfully. MC's were just best suited for pubs because individual skill levels varied so greatly.
Furthermore, of course aliens needed to scout what tech the marines were researching. For example, the difference between an AA and normal armory for an underdeveloped alien team are astronomical. With enough notice, the aliens could adapt to the situation and counter easily.
All of the points you outlined are focused on a very small set of the NS1 player base and shouldn't be generalized.
You also had to keep tracks on where the marine team was at all time if you wanted to have any chance of countering a well drilled push to critical areas of the map.
Even in pubs you would probably notice that the players that are dominating seem to know where everything is and where everything is most likely to happen. This is usually due to their own awareness and scouting.
I think NS2 should have more obvious purpose into scouting. Most RTS games allow this with their different building and timings so you can guess what they are trying to do. In NS1, this could be a mad rush to see if they upgraded something or quick dropped certain buildings, but typically instead you guessed what was going on by the information during your engagements. This is because it wasn't worth losing a player to suicide into the enemy base, and there were so few buildings anyways it was more important to kill the enemy and control nodes.
Allowing for more innovative scouting systems such as disposable units or different techs would be nice in that regard.
Back to my typical stance, something to note is that in CoH often times you wouldn't do much base scouting, you would also infer builds based on what you met in the battlefield and where there were pushes into territory. This didn't diminish the requirement of scouting and map awareness in my opinion, it just didn't require running your SCV into the mineral line for a peak to see if they fast extractor.
But still, I'd like to see more tech variation in NS2 than in NS1 that would make scouting important. It automatically also allows mindgames when you cancel certain buildings/upgrades after scouting or denying skulks running into your base while sacrificing a bit map control etc.
Long story short, +1 for topic.
I guess there's a lot of information you just don't care in NS. Some is important to know, some is crap, and some is only important to know at a certain point. When the com has to decide a strategy, he gathers information and then make a choice that will make a victory... or not. And when he do so, there's scouting. But after that, since he's made his choice, scouting priority decrease a lot. It only is important to scout to counter aliens big plans or to avoid some ambush, or is it ? It can be bad not do so, but if he previously made a good choice, it doesn't matter to him anymore. Anyway can he even fall back and change his mind ? Do he really have this possibility ? So why would he bother gathering strategic information all the time since that crucial choice is made once and for all, and cannot really be undone ?
On the other hand, I think about information clarity/quality. Talking about scouting, aliens had that spot weapon that was huge in terms of scouting : passive scouting. If a good standalone skulk keeps on spotting everything marines build or spawn, it's a lot easier for every pal. And that information is very clear : appears on the screen, shows the way, shows differences between buildings and players, etc. That is a real scout tool, not just player's eyes looking at pixels and microphone says "I think I saw something moving !!".
So I think few things might change in NS2 to increase scouting priority :
• more good reasons to scout :
- allow comm/aliens to change their minds and fall back on any plan B or so. Currently if you start working on a heavy armor and aliens managed to adapt to that strategy, you might want to adapt to that adaptation (and so on) but you can't, it's already done. I don't say you need an instant turnover capability, but instead of always building a strategy that makes or breaks, that you have to choose the sooner you can, it should be possible to choose a more versatile strategy and build on constant adaptation to the enemy. Aliens kinda already have that in their way, since every time they die, they have to choose again what they'll evolve to... so they have an opportunity to change their tactical advantage every time they die.
- maybe if tech trees crossed each other, it would be possible to start working on a branch, and get to a tech situation, a knot, where you can switch to another tech branch without researching all the other tech nodes you should normally had to pay. Those are direct opportunities to change the plans and react.
- equipment presets and soldier packs : this would be something the com has to cook up on the go. he decide of the equipment every marine gets at respawn. When he want to change tactic, he switch to a new soldier pack preset, and every marine gets that at spawn. Of course it costs resources if he include tech equipments in there.
- add the capability of moving buildings around so you can redeploy or adjust a couple of turrets/cameras/teleporters at lower costs. But if you plan on moving buildings, you need a clear understanding of the situation (to check if marines are safe to go there, to check to destination site, to check if you really need to change that turret alignment, etc.)
- I saw that idea, even if it seems to me it's quite hard to implement : give the comm chair a screen that you can watch by being behind the chair, outside. That screen would show what the com sees. It would be used by marines for "fun" (or briefing map), or used by aliens for spying. Then it really give aliens another good reason to try and catch that spot. Say an alien managed to get to that point without dying... but he don't bite or try to destroy anything. The com might think he fleed away. If he's quiet, the alien player can spy on marines on top of the comm point of view. The give the com some king of rear view/camera so he can turn around sometimes to check if somebody's watching. Apart form increasing paranoia it gives a real scout opportunity, with a real cost (betting on your life to reach that place, not doing anything else than watching the com, so one less fighter on the team), and a real counter (rear view).
• more scouting tools ! The Spot is nice, but marines don't have anything to work with when scouting... only memory and microphones (or chat).
- Let's say marine soldiers can tag a room they're in. Let's say they can tag it "cleared", "hive here", "danger zone", etc. Then the com has those comments floating above his GUI, so that he can receive battlefield data from his soldiers. Those comments stick there, so he don't need to memorize them. He can ask for update by clicking them or invalidate them by double clicking on them. Kinda like a fast and light "wiki" system.
- They could also use something more like a spot weapon : radio tracking darts, that are beacons, like the one you use to track animal migration. The difference would be that the tracked position is only viewed by the commander. It reads a "blip" on his screen, like a sort of sonar pulse (alien vs predator style). It only give the alien position each one or two seconds, or so. Aliens could bite their friend to destroy the beacon. It would be sufficient to track an entire group of aliens and anticipate their plans so efficiently it could be worth the try NOT to kill aliens for a couple of minutes, just to check what they're trying to do.
- You could also plant cameras, that cost resources, that has to be planted by marines and that are small and kinda stealthy (shape and color, I don't mean invisibility). You put them on ground or walls the same way you plant trip mines. It deploys and once online, the commander can cycle trough those cameras to check the situation. To help aliens notice them, the camera would flashes a little red light every five seconds or so that reveals its position. A single bite or damage would be enough to take it down.
What do you think ?
To be honest, NS offers very similar, if not identical usage of scouting mechanics as SC2 does. Terrans get a scan that works similarly as the NS1 scan. Zerg get a parasite that is identical to the parasite from SC1. Detection of cloaked aliens works in a similar way with the observatory as it does with turrets in sc, although overlords have no comparison it was never required since kharaa didn't require a detection feature.
Much of the strength of NS1 was it's clever adoption and balance of those features as seen in SC1. Shakespeare often borrowed from other sources and made the resulting content better than the original ever was.
SC2 introduces the changeling, which would be a really neat, but unnecessary, addition to NS2. Other changes from SC1-SC2 along with a slightly increased tech requirement for overlord detection, but otherwise SC2 is virtually identical to SC1 in terms of the technical intel. The only big difference was the inclusion of units who could climb cliffs, which one could argue already exists in NS1 with the MC-Hive and Phase Gate teleportation scheme. In some ways that system is much more sophisticated than what SC2 Offers. And that was just what NS1 had to offer.
It's clear already that NS2 only plans to improve that, particularly with the power grid system. Clever map design is just as important here as clever game design now.
On marines you had at least abiliity to adjust to the alien moves, although the alien play was still rather predictable (the res model once again) most of the time, so you didn't have to rely on scouting much more than checking the nodes and hives regularly.
SC1 scouting is far more sophisticated than NS, I don't know about SC2's system.
Assuming the AKOM knows how to type or scream into a microphone, I think scouting is covered.
Same thing for Marine Commander(MCOM) with the Buildbots and Weldbots.
=)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think one of the major problems with alien scouting in NS was the res model. Apart from scouting the marine positions and maybe going for some specific base rush, there wasn't awfully much you could do different between the most strategies. If you saw obs upgrading first, you could maybe emphasize node pressure or try to aggressively prevent marines from reaching PG spots early, but the res model rarely allowed any adjustments on strategical level or build orders.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd argue scouting the marines' position and buildings is a big enough task for a few skulks. Unless we play differently- I like to know when the armoury, AL and proto are vibrating their way towards a new upgrade- I wouldn't want more scouting than this in NS2.
I did not realize NS1 was the game for clans only.
Arms/obs first is probably the most basic thingy, you probably check that one too.
I'd mostly like to have some more use for the scouted information, not necessarily more scouting itself. Usually there's quite little you do with the information unless you're heading for a baserush shortly. Even with AA or proto you usually just acknowledge it's there and then keep on doing roughly the same as before, unless it's some early game gambit move by the marines.
In NS2 it might be nice to have some responses like sneaking up a skulk to marine start, seeing the tech and going for an extra node, because marines are investing on late game or so.
Another nice feature might be having more buildings with some kind of area effect or field use. Right now you can abuse some obs positions quite a bit. Having some more of such building placement dynamics would be sweet.
I'd argue scouting the marines' position and buildings is a big enough task for a few skulks. Unless we play differently- I like to know when the armoury, AL and proto are vibrating their way towards a new upgrade- I wouldn't want more scouting than this in NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I expect Built Bots to be cheap at least, because that would make the game more fun for all Marine Players since they don't have to babysit the base anymore.
Weldbots will probably require Tier 1/1.5 Tech before you can get them.
Maybe, just Maybe, Marines can not build anything anymore, besides setup Sentryguns. This would make the Build Bot a MCOM Starcraft SCV, which I like.
Never made sense how a Marine constructed a Resource Tower(where does he keep all the parts in his backpack).
*****
Think in Starcraft for example, there is a few differnt building animations that show the SCV building the structure from the ground up; apply that to NS2s Build Bot.
You don't see the Stimpacked Marines build a Barracks or Factory now do you?
*****
The more that the Commanders get to focus on commanding, and the more that the players on the ground attacking on the other team have to only do that, makes the game more fun. It also makes each team have 2 distinct playstyles. One is commanding and one is being a soldier/warrior.
This is probably why NS2 has an Alien Commander, so a new player doesn't get confused when playing 1 team for a bit, and then switches over being extremely confused. Skills(basic) learned as a Marine/Alien, carry over to the other team when played.
The alien team goes MC/DC/SC - no matter which one of those it was, this didn't change the reactions of the Marine much, except they'd need to get motion tracking and whatnot earlier vs SC.
Unfortunately this is far from accurate, particularly when unjustified.
Also, the 'res model' you refer to is quite vague. Team collects res, team spends res. I fail to detect any possible derivation between this and any game. Maybe you refer to a tech tree? In this regard I still disagree as NS, although simpler, offers a more individual experience and is immeasurably more sophisticated because of that.
Also, aliens and marines had various ways of proceeding that were reactionary and based on various factors ranging from map choice and the type of game you wanted to play. Sometimes one team or the other would secure a central location and heavily defend it, this requires a different choice of upgrades for either team than say several loosely defended strategic locations. Of course many were convinced that the vanilla strategies were the only way to proceed, and this may be why you think that the game offered little variation, but you would be wrong.
At which levels do you understand Starcraft or NS?
In NS you scout:
<ul>- The opening hive
- The node locations
- The chamber if it's necessay for some reason
- The next hive timing
- On smaller games you can try to scout the baserushes and alien positions, although it's risky, especially with baserushes to rely on your sound information.
- On most cases you don't react all that much. You maybe push the node, depending on alien node count or change the plan because aliens have OCd up the 2nd hive. Different chambers might require a bit different builds from a marine commander.</li></ul>
In Starcraft you scout:
<ul>- The opening location
- The natural expansion timing and starting build
- The future expansions
- The enemy worker saturations
- The enemy build followups: Even a missing single pylon or visible double armory can tell you a lot, or fake you into something completely different.
- Enemy army positions, incoming drops, incoming pushes, mine fields and so on.
- Scouts get faked
- Scouts get denied
- Scan energy is vital for detection, so you'll have to balance between scouting and reveal scans.
- The builds have variation. Simply seeing a building doesn't guarantee any exact information.
- Scouting is vital. You're going to adapt, plan ahead and play according to your scouting information.</li></ul>
In Starcraft I feel uncomfortable in PvZ for a minute before my first corsair is out, because I am playing mostly blind. In NS I could be happy playing 3 minutes without any real information, because there's very little variation on what the aliens could have.
Feel free to add to lists, it's pretty difficult to separate the necessary scouting in either of the games.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, the 'res model' you refer to is quite vague. Team collects res, team spends res. I fail to detect any possible derivation between this and any game. Maybe you refer to a tech tree? In this regard I still disagree as NS, although simpler, offers a more individual experience and is immeasurably more sophisticated because of that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How does individual experience make it more _sophisticated_? It's pretty close to the opposite of simple, that you already admitted.
The alien model is inflexible, since the res is spread around the whole team and only res peaks (30 res, 50 res) are worth something. You scout a double SG push. What are your options? Mostly to wear it down from range, to go for a risky rush or to hit the base. There is quite little you can do on res scale to divert your game, apart from having a perm piggy to rebuild after marines are done with their rampage. The dependency on individual res peaks and necessity to have lerk, chambers for it, fade, at least 2 extra nodes in addition to hive node are mostly written in the playbook of NS. You can maybe get away without an early lerk, although I think the marines would learn to abuse it quite a bit if it was more common.
With the rest of it, you have very little chance to match the marine decisions. The build orders are all set to stone, maybe some variation with the fade/2nd hive pick. There's hardly any chance of responding to marine moves on any strategical level. On larger games you could maybe get OCs in time if the marines are extremely slow, but even then you're wasting a lot of valuable res peaks that probably should be fading or lerking in a sec. The whole nature of alien model is that you're usually better off just chasing those 30 and 50 res peaks rather than investing a bit at a time to adapt to anything you've scouted.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, aliens and marines had various ways of proceeding that were reactionary and based on various factors ranging from map choice and the type of game you wanted to play. Sometimes one team or the other would secure a central location and heavily defend it, this requires a different choice of upgrades for either team than say several loosely defended strategic locations. Of course many were convinced that the vanilla strategies were the only way to proceed, and this may be why you think that the game offered little variation, but you would be wrong.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is some variation. It's still not that great. If I'm marine commander, I see how double gets build. Depending on the node counts and OC spam, I decide whether I push it right away or whether I clear out the rest of the map. That's roughly it. On various chambers I might choose slightly different gameplay plan, but usually it isn't even necessary. On 6vs6 it gets more limited as the aliens have only 6 players, who still have to fill up the basic roles of fade, nodes, chambers and optionally the hive and lerk.
----
Oh well, not very coherent or informal post. Hopefully it's somewhat readable and understandable.
NS1 Parasite does NOT work the same as in SC1. SC1 parasite gave sight of the infected units' surrounding area to the zerg player, potentially unveiling many units or buildings. NS1 parasite gives a dot on a map of a single enemy unit or structure.
Overlords. Flying buildings.
Observers. Permanently cloaked units in general.
Higher emphasis on choke points; no vents. One could block off their entire territory by just blocking one entrance.
Walling off in early to physically deny scouting.
Scouting for proxy production buildings (nothing like that in NS1).
Info-ling network.
Spider mines at expansions.
Optical flare.
Burrow temporarily cloaking units to fool expansion scouters or expansion raids.
Buildings provide sight in SC1; in NS1 they don't.
Comparing SC1's RTS elements to NS1's RTS is a joke.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In Starcraft you scout:
- The opening location<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Marines scout for initial hive location, although marine start is fixed. But in many SC match configurations start locations are fixed. Although the variation between knowing and not knowing has an effect on game play, so I suppose that is a good point.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- The natural expansion timing and starting build
- The future expansions<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Each node is similar to a resource expansion, which are constantly being (or should be) scouted. Are the hives being occupied or blocked?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- The enemy worker saturations<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, gorges sort of count as workers... but this is a good point... although I'd venture that the mineral line is one of the less interesting strategic points of sc. Although the inital speed at which one saturates the line is important, the build order is infinitely more so.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- The enemy build followups: Even a missing single pylon or visible double armory can tell you a lot, or fake you into something completely different.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is really the best point you have, and is partially emulated but in a less complex way, due to the natural limitations of having a giant tech tree in the hybrid system.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- Enemy army positions, incoming drops, incoming pushes, mine fields and so on.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This happens also in NS, just in differing ways. Jetpacks instead of drops, spotting marine or alien concentrations.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- Scouts get faked - Scouts get denied<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Same happens in NS on a much more individual FPS level - one of the strengths of the game is scouting and unit encounters are micromanged by multiple players, not the commander.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- Scan energy is vital for detection, so you'll have to balance between scouting and reveal scans.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Resources are perhaps even more important, although less of a limitation if you have an excess and want to scout many locations at once. I suppose it's a little different, but just as deep in strategic value and use.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- The builds have variation. Simply seeing a building doesn't guarantee any exact information.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True, there is less variation, and is really, as above, the only weakness here. Even if an alien scouts a marine start and sees an arms lab, that doesn't really inform him if the comm is about to throw down jetpacks and shotguns or heavies with hmgs. Is that armory upgraded? Hard to say, didn't get a good look. The variations on each chamber for aliens provides a lot of depth that can't be easily predicted by marines either. Sensory as hive1? Better counter with an early obs.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- Scouting is vital. You're going to adapt, plan ahead and play according to your scouting information.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Same is true in NS.
The main complaint in this thread seems to stem from a lack of choice and depth in terms of the tech tree, but really you can't except to have that same depth in a hybrid situation - and the depth they do achieve is pretty significant in comparison... made more so by the individually controlled units.
It is true that in larger games it is much harder to hide an expansion and scouting is made a lot easier by either team, but the same goes for a 4v4 in SC - it's virtually impossible to expand without the enemy team knowing. More players in either game means more intel. That's why I generally prefer 2v2 or 1v1 matches there, and in NS I generally prefer team sizes between 6 and 9.
Comparing scouting in terms of an rts to a rtsfps might not be the best idea, but I don't agree that ns is lacking here. If anything the main point you've made is that you want more options for units and abilities, and more base structures.
Yeah, I guess the tech tree is the biggest part of what I protest in this. NS has got very binary information in general and you just keep checking it regularly. At least I tend to feel that I don't really get to use my game sense that much. Just keep cycling through the hive nodes and positions and then react accordingly. Often you don't even have to react to the information, just keep doing the same you did before.
I think kharaa scouting is somewhat close to the spirit I'd like to see in NS2: It's valuable, has got variation, requires some commitment, rewards understanding of the game rather just mechanical checking. It's also only partitially reliable, but still reliable and manageable enough to base decisions on. That kind of thing really adds up to the game. I guess that kind variation makes me appreciate SC scouting more than the NS version of it.
I hope that clarifies my thoughts a bit, I'm not even completely sure myself of all this.
This is a symptom of stagnant play. The cause of this was low strategic intricacy. NS1 was and is an awesome game and is better in a myriad of ways that many standalone games are not. However, strategic intricacy is not one of them.
Aliens always go Movement Chambers and then save for hives and fades. There are no other choices. Hopefully this is not the case in NS2. <b>We would miss half of the point of strategy gaming, which is Intellience.</b>
Without strategic intricacy, there's no point to scouting the opponent's base. There's also no anticipation of different build choices. No room for creativity. And without creativity, the stratagems used become stagnant and predictable. That's "un fun" for an RTS.
So I would like to see a lot of strategic intricacy for NS2. Something comparable to SC2 (not SC1, which is very stagnant now) in terms of ability diversity, weapon behavior, and tech tree intricacy. Obviously some things can't transfer over because in NS2, every unit is controlled by a player. Instant win scenarios, stuns, handicapping, stalls, etc. can never happen or must be tightly controlled.
NS2 is both an FPS and an RTS. Because of that, if both of its sections are just half fun, then it will be about as much fun as a purebreed FPS or RTS which is very fun. But I say "why not?" Why not go all the way in both sections? NS2 could be the best FPS of the year <b>AND</b> the best RTS of the year. Honestly, mechanics influence entertainment more than intense graphics and physics engines, so Unknown Worlds is not as disregardable in this area as we all might think.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Im no CIA tactician but I can speak truthfully that <b>yourbonesakin</b> may or may not be an aristocrat of the Natural Selection family, as <b>focusedwolf</b> tried to expose. In other words, the topic relates to the matter when looking closely at the subject and realizing that scouting is important and can be justified. However stagnant play from low strategic intricacy can be translated to terms of lack of motivation. In other words before you can start scouting try following the commander's requests. And monitor your progress and look for signs of discomfort when performing these tasks.
It's like high school you can't do the in depth work without conquering your basic knowledge, such as obeying basic commands from your commander who is in higher power and sees the game from a clearer perspective. You will soon realize your attempts to follow your commander's orders are merely a human experience being transitioned into an instinct. Then just move on without error in fulfilling tasks.
It's just the way of the world to compete in a first person shooter game with stagnant play with low level logical intricacy. This is for the people who want to stop their stagnant play and are looking for an answer, keep looking and do long division or something.
Anyways, about scouting and general intel about the enemy. Just remember this is an RTS + FPS, and FPS is the focus for the majority of the game. Scouting is not the same as one person who controls the macro and micro. Scouting is more about positioning and anticipation, something that is really not the same where there are enough players to roam anywhere on the map on each team. Also, once you see a structure, it's pretty much there. You don't scout as much once they have a perimeter, much like starcraft where a zerg player has trouble scouting without sacrificing an overlord and needing speed upgrades. I'd have to say NS makes scouting much easier, it just means less because of either too many or too little players. Spotting ninjas aren't the same either.
And i did not realize that public games usually involve deep layers of tactics.
Just like with public NS many starcraft "casual" rounds boil down to the same cookie cutter tactics while tactics become way more varried and complex the higher the "seriousnes" of the players involved gets.
Just like with public NS many starcraft "casual" rounds boil down to the same cookie cutter tactics while tactics become way more varried and complex the higher the "seriousnes" of the players involved gets.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To be fair, a lot of the games for NS2 are going to be played 15vs15. Unknown Worlds is probably taking this into account.
Making a different game balance for 6v6 play would be ideal. The two modes are so incredibly different giving them the same numbers just doesn't make any sense at all. That's what I'd like to see.
Am I thinking logically here?
Making a different game balance for 6v6 play would be ideal. The two modes are so incredibly different giving them the same numbers just doesn't make any sense at all. That's what I'd like to see.
Am I thinking logically here?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Has not much to do with balance, public rounds in these kind of games allways boil down to the flavor of the month "cookiecutter" tactics that will allways get used even if there are plenty of other options. Until somebody figures out something else that seems easier to pull off and that get's adapted.
So no matter how well you balance it public rounds will allways end up with the same tactics because people only use what they know (read somewhere) and are scared of trying new things (or scared of getting booted out of the CC for trying something new). Or to make it short: People are stupid
It's the same phenomen you can observe in MMO's/RPG's, these also have their flavor of the months classes/builds that many many many people will be using without really understanding them until something "new" comes along and that becomes flavor of the month.
Making a different game balance for 6v6 play would be ideal. The two modes are so incredibly different giving them the same numbers just doesn't make any sense at all. That's what I'd like to see.
Am I thinking logically here?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think that was one of the reasons for the unified resource system. It makes sense to do this so its easier to scale the balance with different sizes of play, well it does to me anyway.
So no matter how well you balance it public rounds will allways end up with the same tactics because people only use what they know (read somewhere) and are scared of trying new things (or scared of getting booted out of the CC for trying something new). Or to make it short: People are stupid
It's the same phenomen you can observe in MMO's/RPG's, these also have their flavor of the months classes/builds that many many many people will be using without really understanding them until something "new" comes along and that becomes flavor of the month.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My experiences in NS never led me to believe this to be true. And it is not appropriate to compare strategy in an mmo to a rts or rtsfps. In an mmo (in pve) if a strategy works, you use it. Often it takes a considerable amount of time to execute a strategy properly, so even if a potential strat is easier - it's not worth the effort vs reward to perfect another strat.
I would conclude that you probably just pug random servers and raid groups and thus your experience is limited because when in such situations it is much more common to only perform common strategies, both for fear of reprisal and usefulness.
Maybe if you took the time to build relationships with others on one or two servers with a good population of regulars your experience of "people are stupid" might change. Your perception of stupid here, is really only an internal projection of self.