Alien HUD

RobB

Will the aliens have hud elements on their weapons (viewmodels) (i.e. an onos gets scratches and fractures on their tusks when they're hurt, a gorge's mouth starts bleeding, all that stuff)?

Temphage

I was going to say that that would provide health estimates that would be way too imprecise, but that got me thinking - what if aliens had regenerating health by default?

Think of it as Far Cry 2-style. Your health-bar is split into 20% chunks. Damage would regenerate up to the highest 20% chunk. So if a gorges takes a bit of falling damage, he can slowly heal it up. If a skulk takes a thrashing, he's not forced to sit around with his claw up his ass with 3% health remaining - after a while, it'd heal back up to 20%. This *could* be combined with the visible damage to the viewmodel as 20% chunks would be easier to differentiate.

This would encourage hit-and-run attacks, as well as doing the opposite for marines - providing extra encouragement for chasing down and making sure aliens are dead rather than just winging a skulk and knowing that a harsh gaze is going to kill it.

Now I don't know how the alien commander is going to work, but for the time being this could theoretically serve the aliens as a bit like marine healthpacks.

RobB

Originally I had that marks in mind, but why in darwins name would an onos have a digital bar on his tusks that shows it how healthy it is?

Quovatis

<!--quoteo(post=1762779:date=Apr 5 2010, 04:25 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Apr 5 2010, 04:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1762779"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I was going to say that that would provide health estimates that would be way too imprecise, but that got me thinking - what if aliens had regenerating health by default?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Did you even play NS1? Except for the first year after release, all the aliens regenerate slowly by default.

Bacillus

<!--quoteo(post=1762815:date=Apr 5 2010, 07:36 PM:name=RobB)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RobB @ Apr 5 2010, 07:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1762815"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Originally I had that marks in mind, but why in darwins name would an onos have a digital bar on his tusks that shows it how healthy it is?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because it doesn't for some reason have any pain receptors or body awarness by itself.

The visual feedback itself is nice and maybe even enough in some scenarios, but I definitely wouldn't completely count out the holographic HUD just because it isn't completely explainable through alien nature. I want good and accurate feedback that allows me to make the right decisions quickly. The means of delivering that information aren't such a big deal for me. If such visual feedback works alone, it's all good for me, but so far I haven't seen that accurate system without some kind of health bars or numeric values.

SentrySteve

<!--quoteo(post=1762779:date=Apr 5 2010, 12:25 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Apr 5 2010, 12:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1762779"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I was going to say that that would provide health estimates that would be way too imprecise, but that got me thinking - what if aliens had regenerating health by default<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I think this would be pretty cool, if only on DI. This would give an advantage to the alien's while on their own turf and encourage hit and runs, plus flamethrower use by marines to remove the DI. Then again, maybe it's already like this. We know nothing about DI.

We'd just have to be careful how much healing is available in the game. If the defense chamber still offered regen, if the alien commander/gorge can throw up some kind of heal, and if there was regen on DI things could get pretty horrible. I'd be willing to sacrifice one/both of the first two heal methods for an inherent regen on DI.

I think visual indicators of your own health would be cool, but also fairly hard to implement. If you're being healed would the scratches just disappear? How would a damaged skulk's view look? Would his tongue bleed or would his teeth be cracked? Again, how would this animation flow once you're healed to something that accurately represents your new health? Having your view go from "really hurt" to "good health" without a smooth transition would look unfinished and/or jarring. I'm not against the idea, I just think a traditional number or some kind of meter is a lot easier/less time to implement. I would view this as something that is added on down the road.

Voyager I

<!--quoteo(post=1762820:date=Apr 5 2010, 08:07 PM:name=Quovatis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Quovatis @ Apr 5 2010, 08:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1762820"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Did you even play NS1? Except for the first year after release, all the aliens regenerate slowly by default.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I believe he meant on a scale that could actually take effect over the course of an extended encounter.

Temphage

<!--quoteo(post=1762820:date=Apr 5 2010, 07:07 PM:name=Quovatis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Quovatis @ Apr 5 2010, 07:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1762820"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Did you even play NS1? Except for the first year after release, all the aliens regenerate slowly by default.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I guess they did. I haven't played NS for about 4 years now, though if I recall the regeneration was so slow as to be almost worthless was it not? I'm at least picturing something as ridiculous as what you see in a console game these days.

Dalin Seivewright

I'm guessing the regen-by-default was pretty much useless as I played for a very long time but don't remember anything about that. The only time I remember being healed was when I had the Regen upgrade, was by a DC/Hive or by a Gorge, so I'm guessing it auto-regen only healed you up to a certain small point (10 hp on the skulk?) or did it so slowly that you could sit there for an hour and not notice it.

I do think though that if health regeneration on the go without any upgrades or related chambers around should definitely come from DI. It provides incentive to protect it and to remove it.

About the Alien Damage Indications on the viewmodel: I think it would be interesting, but I don't think it would be noticeable or worth the effort to implement it. You can get more information from the health value on the HUD itself. I would like to see some damage indications on the actual player models though, like bullet holes + bleeding on an Onos. I think bleeding is essential at any rate (or just general screams of pain from the players character) as it easily passes on the knowledge to other players that so and so is actually getting hit and they're probably going to die soon.

Something visual like bullet holes or sratches on player models probably won't be that noticeable in the heat of battle unless it was something so severe that it actually causes gameplay implications, like the leg of an Onos being shot off or shot enough that it impedes its movement. That should definitely give easily identifiable visual clues to enemies and allies.

celewign

lets stick with a normal hud for aliens, its the cleanest way to impart gameplay information to a player.

xmaine

<!--quoteo(post=1763228:date=Apr 8 2010, 05:45 AM:name=celewign)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (celewign @ Apr 8 2010, 05:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1763228"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->lets stick with a normal hud for aliens, its the cleanest way to impart gameplay information to a player.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yeah, no one wants a jumbled mess.

brownymaster

Natural regeneration without the upgrade was worthless. However, an interesting idea would be to have DI increase regen rates (like SC2 zerg/creep). I honestly don't think that the appearance changing with HP should be implemented because the only thing that would make sense is bullet holes, and dynamic bullet holes on a model seem too much like a res ###### on your computer and not that interesting. I don't think a shot up Onos suddenly has it's tusk scratched up just because, but maybe a lerks wings could be shot out. Would look "ugly" to have bullet holes on other things though.

RobB

Hm. I wonder. Does the player see his own wings? Doubt it.

brownymaster

Yeah, I was thinking of other players seeing it. But the alien himself shouldn't be able to see much difference in himself at all beyond the HP on the HUD. we already have a bitecam with no relation to eye placement (I'm used to bitecam and accept it) but yeah HUD changes because of being low HP is just annoying to me at least.

Quovatis

I wouldn't call the default regen in NS1 worthless. It took about 60 seconds to fully heal any lifeform (heal rate was a percentage of the base health). It takes, what 15 seconds with the regen upgrade, so not too bad for free. It came in handy as a skulk or lerk being trapped in a vent. Again, for those saying you don't remember it, it was included in one of the last patches of NS1, so it was a very late addition and you might not have played with it.

This is fine, but if you're talking about default regen like you see in Halo or other console games (i.e. you fully heal after taking no damage for 5 seconds)...hell no! That is so stupid IMHO. If you do a lot of damage and then try to hunt them down to finish the job, you shouldn't have to start over again. You should keep the advantage you had because you did damage first.

brownymaster

I like how regeneration was pretty worthless (again, IMO, it was % based but extremely slow and it always seemed faster just to run back to hive or get a gorge) unless you got the up. Fast natural regeneration would only be ok if a new lifeform was made or if they're near a hive. I was just talking about the whole HUD aspect and viewmodels.

celewign

players should have to work to gain health. enough said.


health is a gift, not a free lunch.

Temphage

<!--quoteo(post=1763401:date=Apr 9 2010, 02:20 AM:name=celewign)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (celewign @ Apr 9 2010, 02:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1763401"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->players should have to work to gain health. enough said.


health is a gift, not a free lunch.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Is there any actual logic behind this, or is this just the same boring, tired, baseless "LOL SKILLZ" rhetoric?

Besides, doesn't 90% of the marine team just get health packs exploding out of thin air that are instantly applied no matter WHAT their situation is?

<!--quoteo(post=1763343:date=Apr 8 2010, 10:25 PM:name=Quovatis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Quovatis @ Apr 8 2010, 10:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1763343"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is fine, but if you're talking about default regen like you see in Halo or other console games (i.e. you fully heal after taking no damage for 5 seconds)...hell no! That is so stupid IMHO. If you do a lot of damage and then try to hunt them down to finish the job, you shouldn't have to start over again. You should keep the advantage you had because you did damage first.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I suggested breaking the health bar up into 20% pieces so they *can't* regen all the way. Once a block is completely empty, it won't heal without an upgrade, hive or gorge healing. Otherwise the block will refill. So if an alien takes 33% damage from 100%, if he escapes for a short while his health will fill back up from 66% to 80%.

The entire point of this is to reinforce the alien 'idea' that they're supposed to rely on hit-and-run attacks. A skulk who tried this in NS1 (without whenever that patch came in that added regen) could get severely hurt and have to run back to the hive - a skulk with 10 health is worthless, a stiff breeze will kill it.

Finally, aliens are supposed to be different from marines. Regenerating health <b>fits them completely</b>.

RobB

Since we strayed to far from the original topic, let me post a quick & dirty mock up.

<img src="http://s10.directupload.net/images/100409/uefuy2zm.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Full health, full armor.

<img src="http://s1.directupload.net/images/100409/28jjfaa5.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
damage received.

brownymaster

Now that I've seen a mockup, i get an idea of what you're talking about.
I'd honestly rather have a concrete number for HP/AP, but I'm sure this could easily by added through scripting. Wouldn't mind this as an extra non default option/modable in so long as concrete numbers stay.

Bacillus

I'm not sure if that can be read while you're blinking in and out with a fade while there are some reflections on your screen and so on. I'd rather not play NS in a completely dark room just to be able to read my HUD properly. If you're going with a somewhat holographic HUD with bars and/or numbers, you'd better do it properly I think. It's still interpreting artificially presented data at that point, no matter how subtle the visualization is.

For the learning curve, it might be better to have pretty unified HUD or extremely clear signals otherwise. I'd try to avoid various bars camoflouged specifically for every lifeform if that's possible.

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Is there any actual logic behind this, or is this just the same boring, tired, baseless "LOL SKILLZ" rhetoric?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To be honest, regen usually serves the more skilled players. The less skilled player is dead and has nothing to regen, the more skilled player regens up and heads for some more kills. I tend to pick regen over carapace as a fade if I know that the marines aren't that good or I'm not facing any heavy weaponry, since it allows me to keep fighting longer. Against decent marines in an even fight you'll need cara, so you can't keep on fragging that long.

social3ngin33rin

<!--quoteo(post=1762824:date=Apr 5 2010, 12:56 PM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Apr 5 2010, 12:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1762824"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Because it doesn't for some reason have any pain receptors or body awarness by itself.

The visual feedback itself is nice and maybe even enough in some scenarios, but I definitely wouldn't completely count out the holographic HUD just because it isn't completely explainable through alien nature. I want good and accurate feedback that allows me to make the right decisions quickly. The means of delivering that information aren't such a big deal for me. If such visual feedback works alone, it's all good for me, but so far I haven't seen that accurate system without some kind of health bars or numeric values.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


bars and #'s don't make sense,
Darwin would have some kind of pain receptors.
or marines would be knifing the onos anus and it wouldn't even know it