<!--quoteo(post=1806552:date=Nov 18 2010, 08:29 PM:name=Nil_IQ)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nil_IQ @ Nov 18 2010, 08:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1806552"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In any case... you might want to make sure you bury your dwarves properly as of this version. Just saying.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Aw, I can't just dump them in my open-air garbage pit?
Building a game using antiquated controls and an esoteric graphical system deliberately simulated using otherwise modern graphics middleware is about as close to objectively stupid as it's possible to get.
I managed to get my lecturer to use DF as an example of the antithesis of sensible and good design. The first thing she asked me is why the hell I bother playing it. I think she thinks I'm insane now.
I thought this argument was put to rest already =p
Let's say I'm a programmer, not an artist. Let's say I love complex systems interacting with each other. Let's say I make my own game. Do I spend my effort trying to design graphics which I don't think is fun and I suck at doing and they will have to change 100 times before the game is ready for "release" anyway, or do I do what I like doing and am good at and leave the graphics to the community?
Maybe if you want to pay the salaries of some artists for him, he might hire some =p
Dwarf Fortress is a game written by a former <i>math professor</i>. That's really all the explanation needed.
Also, despite being about 6 years old at this point, the game is still technically an alpha, with all that entails. Toady claims he'll work on things like the interface and graphics when he's closer to a beta release. For now, its obviously<i> far </i>more important that we know the shape of our dwarves noses and how many teeth they've got than to actually be able to see that information presented in any sort of coherent manner...
Considering that at some point in development, players were modifying their game files to add hands to cats so they wouldn't produce an error message every time they tried to pick something up, worrying about graphics seems a bit premature. Next version maybe we decide that dragons have two livers with left/right symmetry, so we need a graphic for an <i>inverted</i> dragon liver now as well as the standard dragon liver! So much extra development! It's not as if development isn't already dragging on, do we really want him to SLOW DOWN?
I'm not really one to complain though. Every time someone complains that dwarf fortress isn't the game they want it to be, I'm reminded of myself ###### about Eve Online. I mean, I love the idea of Eve Online, I love the general concept behind it, and I would play the ###### out of that game if CCP WEREN'T COMPLETE IDIOTS WHO HAVE NO ###### CLUE ABOUT HOW TO DESIGN A GAME AND WHY THE ###### DID THEY MAKE THEIR GAME SO HORRIBLE WHEN ALL IT'D TAKE IS LISTENING TO ME FOR ONCE. I mean seriously, if they'd do what I told them to do the game would be so much better.
You don't need a fancy graphics pack, you just need something like the mayday pack. Something that lets you see what stuff is when you look at it relatively intutiively. Simple graphics are fine, unintelligable graphics are not. Game design 101: the player must be able to see what the hell is happening.
<!--quoteo(post=1807580:date=Nov 20 2010, 10:38 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Nov 20 2010, 10:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1807580"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You don't need a fancy graphics pack, you just need something like the mayday pack. Something that lets you see what stuff is when you look at it relatively intutiively. Simple graphics are fine, unintelligable graphics are not. Game design 101: the player must be able to see what the hell is happening.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1807281:date=Nov 19 2010, 11:19 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Nov 19 2010, 11:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1807281"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Building a game using antiquated controls and an esoteric graphical system deliberately simulated using otherwise modern graphics middleware is about as close to objectively stupid as it's possible to get.
I managed to get my lecturer to use DF as an example of the antithesis of sensible and good design. The first thing she asked me is why the hell I bother playing it. I think she thinks I'm insane now.
So yes, it's stupid.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You Sir are an arrogant <!--coloro:orange--><span style="color:orange"><!--/coloro-->doo-doo-head<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->. You have a point (albeit a seemingly inadvertently) about the need to improve graphics. Improving the graphics does not improve the "information density", a dwarf can be symbolized by either a D or a small tileset icon there is no difference in terms of info. The two advantages of a tileset is the fact that it is easier to pick up for newer players, and the fact that the different objects are more visually distinct, making identifying different things faster and easier. That aside why are you still bringing this up? It has been explained NUMEROUS times that there is only 1 person working on this game WHO IS A PROGRAMMER. The game is huge and very complex, that is where he is focusing, he does not give a crap about graphics because graphics can not stand alone without gameplay. When it is a choice between devoting resources to graphics or gameplay, the correct design choice is to focus on gameplay. Good and complex game play can stand up on its own much better then "good" graphics can. It is evident that the concept of resource management is completely foreign to both you and your professor.
Community designed graphics improvements on the other hand...
Just to clue you in, newblood, this is not the kind of forum where we go around calling each other "<!--coloro:orange--><span style="color:orange"><!--/coloro-->doo-doo-head<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->" just because we disagree. We can make our points without throwing our manners overboard.
<!--quoteo(post=1807598:date=Nov 20 2010, 01:24 PM:name=Faskalia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Faskalia @ Nov 20 2010, 01:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1807598"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It was hard to code, it should be hard to read!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited November 2010
<!--quoteo(post=1807750:date=Nov 21 2010, 01:29 AM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lolfighter @ Nov 21 2010, 01:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1807750"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just to clue you in, newblood, this is not the kind of forum where we go around calling each other "<!--coloro:orange--><span style="color:orange"><!--/coloro-->doo-doo-head<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->" just because we disagree. We can make our points without throwing our manners overboard.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Indeed and that remark was totally uncalled for, he should have at least have the courtesy of calling him a <!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->ding-a-ling<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> first!
I'm so angry right now, I could even shake my fist in the general direction of the planet he lives on... For sure!
<!--quoteo(post=1807702:date=Nov 20 2010, 08:05 PM:name=1dominator1)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (1dominator1 @ Nov 20 2010, 08:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1807702"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Improving the graphics does not improve the "information density", a dwarf can be symbolized by either a D or a small tileset icon there is no difference in terms of info.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
False. Tilesets can allow you to tell the difference between the nobles at very least, wheras I believe they're all purple D's with the ASCII graphics.
All I really want is to be able to tell, at a glance, what my dwarves are actually doing. Is he farming, training, on break, picking up equipment or picking his nose? As it stands, you can only really tell whether a dwarf is mining or sleeping. If he's just standing around, you have no way of telling what he's doing without the V or K menus. And we're not likely to get anything more complex than what we've already got whilst everything is mapped one-to-one with an ASCII character. Not to mention it'd be nice to actually SEE the fancy clothing, weapons and jewlery I dedicate so much time and effort to churning out being worn by my dwarves. Right now a dwarf in his finest finery and packing a jewel-encrusted battle-axe looks identical to an unarmed hobo in a threadbare loincloth.
And lolfighter, I too love everything about EVE Online, except that it isn't actually any fun to play.
What I'd love to know is how much work it'd actually take to add sprite graphics to dwarf fortress, both how much it'd take to add them to the game as it is right now and how much ongoing work it'd be for future versions. You usually get two kinds of answers:
One side says it'd be a moderate amount of work at most, and that the only reason nothing has been done about it is because Toady and the DF community are elitist jerks who don't want the unwashed plebes sullying their nerdy little game, when what would ACTUALLY happen is that graphics would make macho coolguys wearing sunglasses play the game, thus overshadowing the sweaty, fat nerds and banishing them back to their mothers' basements where they belong.
The other side says it'd be an inordinate amount of work at best, and most likely borderline impossible. And the reason people keep asking for it is because they're mouth-breathing retards who lack the mental fortitude to play the game anyway, graphics or not. In fact, they argue, the obscure interface is like an entrance exam, a "you must be this smart to ride" sign: Anyone who doesn't measure up would only endanger their fragile and feeble little minds. Yes, glory to the geeky master race, for theirs are the spoils of Dwarf Fortress.
And the problem is that neither side has any ###### clue what they're talking about because none of them have any insight into the game's code. And the only person who could give an educated answer doesn't seem particularly inclined to.
Every games programmer in my university is capable of building a sprite based graphics engine because 90% of them are doing so this year for an assesment.
Sprite graphics are not difficult. I'm making the art assets with a minor amount of photoshop expertise (and some crayon drawings by our traditional artist) and the programmers are building a simple engine to render them in. Everything is just animated sprites, and DF doesn't even need animation.
You don't need much expertise to do sprites, any idiot with photoshop can make the actual sprites and any programmer with experience programming graphics could make the engine. DF runs on openGL, it has graphics already, it's just that toady seems to think that using bitmaps of ascii characters instead of actual pictograms or icons is clever.
Sure. It's fairly easy to say "replace ascii-ish characters with sprites", but where does that get you? A tileset, that's what.
The real issue here is the fact that there is an enormous amount of information that could be displayed. The dwarf's skin colour, eye colour, hair colour, the clothes they're wearing (remembering you can wear mismatched gloves, socks and boots), the weapons or tools they're carrying, the materials the clothes and weapons are made of, the quality of the items, their state of decay, the action the dwarf is currently engaged in, the mood of the dwarf, any injuries sustained, any dirt/mud/blood/ichor on the skin clothes or weapons, their age, weight, height... and that's all the ones I can think of inside a few minutes. Creating these sprites through layering sprites on top of one another would result in a billionty sprites being drawn at once. Pre-compiling the sprites might work, but it would have to recompile them every time a dwarf picked something up, or got some blood on them. Additionally, Toady's OCD is such that any inaccuracy in the display is unforgivable. Better to hold your tongue than to tell a lie.
I've long since learned the futility of trying to reason with you Chris, since even if I make an irrefutable argument you'll redefine the parameters you started with until the entire discussion was rendered moot. So whatever.
In the end: If you don't like it, don't play. It sucks that it's not more accessible, but hey, Toady can steer his boat wherever he pleases. I'm just happy to enjoy the (free) ride.
Please tell me that there is another meaning to OCD than obsessive compulsive disorder.
At any rate: A small linkage to an awesome DF visualization: <a href="http://www.timdenee.com/oilfurnace/" target="_blank">http://www.timdenee.com/oilfurnace/</a>
<!--quoteo(post=1809060:date=Nov 23 2010, 08:32 AM:name=Scythe)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Scythe @ Nov 23 2010, 08:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1809060"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sure. It's fairly easy to say "replace ascii-ish characters with sprites", but where does that get you? A tileset, that's what.
The real issue here is the fact that there is an enormous amount of information that could be displayed. The dwarf's skin colour, eye colour, hair colour, the clothes they're wearing (remembering you can wear mismatched gloves, socks and boots), the weapons or tools they're carrying, the materials the clothes and weapons are made of, the quality of the items, their state of decay, the action the dwarf is currently engaged in, the mood of the dwarf, any injuries sustained, any dirt/mud/blood/ichor on the skin clothes or weapons, their age, weight, height... and that's all the ones I can think of inside a few minutes. Creating these sprites through layering sprites on top of one another would result in a billionty sprites being drawn at once. Pre-compiling the sprites might work, but it would have to recompile them every time a dwarf picked something up, or got some blood on them. Additionally, Toady's OCD is such that any inaccuracy in the display is unforgivable. Better to hold your tongue than to tell a lie.
I've long since learned the futility of trying to reason with you Chris, since even if I make an irrefutable argument you'll redefine the parameters you started with until the entire discussion was rendered moot. So whatever.
In the end: If you don't like it, don't play. It sucks that it's not more accessible, but hey, Toady can steer his boat wherever he pleases. I'm just happy to enjoy the (free) ride.
--Scythe--<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
All of that information is more or less irrelevant, you only need to know a few things.
1: What type of dwarf is it?
2: What is it doing?
3: How healthy/equipped is it?
So, different sprites for different dwarf types (as in most graphics packs) would be the start, then you would add some sort of floating icon to indicate what it's doing, like a small pickaxe above its head to denote mining, a bushel of grain to indicate farming, a bow to indicate hunting, swords to indicate fighting or performing military duties and so on. Similar to something like the sims or the settlers (I think one of the settler versions had those? Not sure). Underneath the dwarf you can put a HP bar, while DF doesn't technically have HP you can boil down the limb system into 'how close is the dwarf to death from damage?' and represent it on a scale. For equipment you can have a status icon to the side of the dwarf which flashes if the dwarf needs something, it can flash food or water or a tool or whatever.
All this is doable with a proper sprite based system, rather than a tileset which changes based on what occupies the tile. Instead you make the dwarf a sprite, and can draw things around it on neighbouring tiles, and scale the icons independently of the grid, so if you zoom in the icons can stay the same on-screen size to allow multiple icons per grid square. Which would help display particularly crowded locations.
For other creatures you can probably just go with 'what creature is it' and a hitpoint bar, nobody gives a damn if the goblin happens to have cooking skills and red hair, how dead is the goblin and what is it wielding?
Prioritisation is key, the interface has to show important things before pointless fluff, to that end you can probably remove the rock items entirely and just have them be visible if you activate look around, you don't really need to know that the entire floor is covered with rocks which are taking up your limited display space and stopping you seeing the horde of cave crocodiles or whatever that climbed out of the well.
Combine that with more mouse control for the interface, being able to select dwarves or buildings with the mouse and click it to do stuff is useful, rather than having to press Q arrow keys A B A B A B A B A B I can just double click the still half a dozen times to order a quick run of booze. Much simpler. Or I can click a goblin and in the menu it will list my military squads and I can just click one and they will go attack this goblin. Basic interface advances that have been done in all sorts of games in the past decade, progress, playability, fun.
<!--quoteo(post=1809079:date=Nov 23 2010, 12:20 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Nov 23 2010, 12:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1809079"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So, different sprites for different dwarf types (as in most graphics packs) would be the start, then you would add some sort of floating icon to indicate what it's doing, like a small pickaxe above its head to denote mining, a bushel of grain to indicate farming, a bow to indicate hunting, swords to indicate fighting or performing military duties and so on. Similar to something like the sims or the settlers (I think one of the settler versions had those? Not sure). Underneath the dwarf you can put a HP bar, while DF doesn't technically have HP you can boil down the limb system into 'how close is the dwarf to death from damage?' and represent it on a scale. For equipment you can have a status icon to the side of the dwarf which flashes if the dwarf needs something, it can flash food or water or a tool or whatever.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah, that totally sounds like it wouldn't be confusing or cluttered at all.
The thing is, you can already see those things with reasonable accuracy. Your dwarves are color coded based on what they're most skilled in. You can propably deduce what job a dwarf is doing based on what it's supposed to be doing, what it's carrying, where it's headed etc. A farmer dwarf walking towards a farm is propably going to farm. You can already see if a dwarf is seriously wounded, hungry, thirsty, tired, nauseous, etc. If you need any more detail on any of these, you can look at them with a cursor to get more detail.
Sure, the interface isn't great, but it works and I don't mind it. Really, if you can't handle it, make a utility program that adds your thousand floating icons or don't play it.
<!--quoteo(post=1809143:date=Nov 23 2010, 12:00 PM:name=Retales)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Retales @ Nov 23 2010, 12:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1809143"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah, that totally sounds like it wouldn't be confusing or cluttered at all.
The thing is, you can already see those things with reasonable accuracy. Your dwarves are color coded based on what they're most skilled in. You can propably deduce what job a dwarf is doing based on what it's supposed to be doing, what it's carrying, where it's headed etc. A farmer dwarf walking towards a farm is propably going to farm. You can already see if a dwarf is seriously wounded, hungry, thirsty, tired, nauseous, etc. If you need any more detail on any of these, you can look at them with a cursor to get more detail.
Sure, the interface isn't great, but it works and I don't mind it. Really, if you can't handle it, make a utility program that adds your thousand floating icons or don't play it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah it can be confusing I guess, although I think most people can read two intutive icons and a coloured bar for each unit, most games give the option to toggle them on and off. You could perhaps hide the extra info unless you mouseover, hitpoint bars are often done like that, although some alerts should probably be displayed always. Just general interface things you see in most RTS games you know? Find intuitive and effective ways of displaying the info the players need to know, when they need to know it.
I can certainly play dwarf fortress, I can use 3dstudio max so I'm not exactly overwhelmed by the idea of a bunch of weird stuff I don't know what it does, but it still isn't good, it still should be improved. Being able to hop on one leg does not make two legs any less of a good idea.
<!--quoteo(post=1809227:date=Nov 23 2010, 03:51 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Nov 23 2010, 03:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1809227"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I hate the idea of a HP bar, but something like Healthy/Wounded/Dying would probably work well enough.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Soo a HP bar?
It doesn't have to actually have HP, it's just a bar is a good way of representing health, you can make it different colours, it's easy to read in any language, it's standard so people will know what it means, and it provides very accurate information.
MonkfishSonic-boom-inducing buttcheeks of terrifying speed!Join Date: 2003-06-03Member: 16972Members
edited November 2010
I haven't been following this thread. Can it be summed up as "chris still has no idea what he's talking about and every post he makes is a monument to his <!--coloro:orange--><span style="color:orange"><!--/coloro-->loveliness<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->?"
Comments
Why did I now know this?
Why did I now know this?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because he just told you.
It's empty/quiet most of the time anyway.
In any case... you might want to make sure you bury your dwarves properly as of this version. Just saying.
Aw, I can't just dump them in my open-air garbage pit?
--Scythe--
P.S. Default graphics 4 eva.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Building a game using antiquated controls and an esoteric graphical system deliberately simulated using otherwise modern graphics middleware is about as close to objectively stupid as it's possible to get.
I managed to get my lecturer to use DF as an example of the antithesis of sensible and good design. The first thing she asked me is why the hell I bother playing it. I think she thinks I'm insane now.
So yes, it's stupid.
Let's say I'm a programmer, not an artist. Let's say I love complex systems interacting with each other. Let's say I make my own game. Do I spend my effort trying to design graphics which I don't think is fun and I suck at doing and they will have to change 100 times before the game is ready for "release" anyway, or do I do what I like doing and am good at and leave the graphics to the community?
Maybe if you want to pay the salaries of some artists for him, he might hire some =p
Also, despite being about 6 years old at this point, the game is still technically an alpha, with all that entails. Toady claims he'll work on things like the interface and graphics when he's closer to a beta release. For now, its obviously<i> far </i>more important that we know the shape of our dwarves noses and how many teeth they've got than to actually be able to see that information presented in any sort of coherent manner...
I'm not really one to complain though. Every time someone complains that dwarf fortress isn't the game they want it to be, I'm reminded of myself ###### about Eve Online. I mean, I love the idea of Eve Online, I love the general concept behind it, and I would play the ###### out of that game if CCP WEREN'T COMPLETE IDIOTS WHO HAVE NO ###### CLUE ABOUT HOW TO DESIGN A GAME AND WHY THE ###### DID THEY MAKE THEIR GAME SO HORRIBLE WHEN ALL IT'D TAKE IS LISTENING TO ME FOR ONCE. I mean seriously, if they'd do what I told them to do the game would be so much better.
It was hard to code, it should be hard to read!
I managed to get my lecturer to use DF as an example of the antithesis of sensible and good design. The first thing she asked me is why the hell I bother playing it. I think she thinks I'm insane now.
So yes, it's stupid.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You Sir are an arrogant <!--coloro:orange--><span style="color:orange"><!--/coloro-->doo-doo-head<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->. You have a point (albeit a seemingly inadvertently) about the need to improve graphics. Improving the graphics does not improve the "information density", a dwarf can be symbolized by either a D or a small tileset icon there is no difference in terms of info. The two advantages of a tileset is the fact that it is easier to pick up for newer players, and the fact that the different objects are more visually distinct, making identifying different things faster and easier. That aside why are you still bringing this up? It has been explained NUMEROUS times that there is only 1 person working on this game WHO IS A PROGRAMMER. The game is huge and very complex, that is where he is focusing, he does not give a crap about graphics because graphics can not stand alone without gameplay. When it is a choice between devoting resources to graphics or gameplay, the correct design choice is to focus on gameplay. Good and complex game play can stand up on its own much better then "good" graphics can. It is evident that the concept of resource management is completely foreign to both you and your professor.
Community designed graphics improvements on the other hand...
die in fires
Indeed and that remark was totally uncalled for, he should have at least have the courtesy of calling him a <!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->ding-a-ling<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> first!
I'm so angry right now, I could even shake my fist in the general direction of the planet he lives on... For sure!
False. Tilesets can allow you to tell the difference between the nobles at very least, wheras I believe they're all purple D's with the ASCII graphics.
All I really want is to be able to tell, at a glance, what my dwarves are actually doing. Is he farming, training, on break, picking up equipment or picking his nose? As it stands, you can only really tell whether a dwarf is mining or sleeping. If he's just standing around, you have no way of telling what he's doing without the V or K menus. And we're not likely to get anything more complex than what we've already got whilst everything is mapped one-to-one with an ASCII character. Not to mention it'd be nice to actually SEE the fancy clothing, weapons and jewlery I dedicate so much time and effort to churning out being worn by my dwarves. Right now a dwarf in his finest finery and packing a jewel-encrusted battle-axe looks identical to an unarmed hobo in a threadbare loincloth.
And lolfighter, I too love everything about EVE Online, except that it isn't actually any fun to play.
One side says it'd be a moderate amount of work at most, and that the only reason nothing has been done about it is because Toady and the DF community are elitist jerks who don't want the unwashed plebes sullying their nerdy little game, when what would ACTUALLY happen is that graphics would make macho coolguys wearing sunglasses play the game, thus overshadowing the sweaty, fat nerds and banishing them back to their mothers' basements where they belong.
The other side says it'd be an inordinate amount of work at best, and most likely borderline impossible. And the reason people keep asking for it is because they're mouth-breathing retards who lack the mental fortitude to play the game anyway, graphics or not. In fact, they argue, the obscure interface is like an entrance exam, a "you must be this smart to ride" sign: Anyone who doesn't measure up would only endanger their fragile and feeble little minds. Yes, glory to the geeky master race, for theirs are the spoils of Dwarf Fortress.
And the problem is that neither side has any ###### clue what they're talking about because none of them have any insight into the game's code. And the only person who could give an educated answer doesn't seem particularly inclined to.
Sprite graphics are not difficult. I'm making the art assets with a minor amount of photoshop expertise (and some crayon drawings by our traditional artist) and the programmers are building a simple engine to render them in. Everything is just animated sprites, and DF doesn't even need animation.
You don't need much expertise to do sprites, any idiot with photoshop can make the actual sprites and any programmer with experience programming graphics could make the engine. DF runs on openGL, it has graphics already, it's just that toady seems to think that using bitmaps of ascii characters instead of actual pictograms or icons is clever.
The real issue here is the fact that there is an enormous amount of information that could be displayed. The dwarf's skin colour, eye colour, hair colour, the clothes they're wearing (remembering you can wear mismatched gloves, socks and boots), the weapons or tools they're carrying, the materials the clothes and weapons are made of, the quality of the items, their state of decay, the action the dwarf is currently engaged in, the mood of the dwarf, any injuries sustained, any dirt/mud/blood/ichor on the skin clothes or weapons, their age, weight, height... and that's all the ones I can think of inside a few minutes. Creating these sprites through layering sprites on top of one another would result in a billionty sprites being drawn at once. Pre-compiling the sprites might work, but it would have to recompile them every time a dwarf picked something up, or got some blood on them. Additionally, Toady's OCD is such that any inaccuracy in the display is unforgivable. Better to hold your tongue than to tell a lie.
I've long since learned the futility of trying to reason with you Chris, since even if I make an irrefutable argument you'll redefine the parameters you started with until the entire discussion was rendered moot. So whatever.
In the end: If you don't like it, don't play. It sucks that it's not more accessible, but hey, Toady can steer his boat wherever he pleases. I'm just happy to enjoy the (free) ride.
--Scythe--
At any rate:
A small linkage to an awesome DF visualization: <a href="http://www.timdenee.com/oilfurnace/" target="_blank">http://www.timdenee.com/oilfurnace/</a>
The real issue here is the fact that there is an enormous amount of information that could be displayed. The dwarf's skin colour, eye colour, hair colour, the clothes they're wearing (remembering you can wear mismatched gloves, socks and boots), the weapons or tools they're carrying, the materials the clothes and weapons are made of, the quality of the items, their state of decay, the action the dwarf is currently engaged in, the mood of the dwarf, any injuries sustained, any dirt/mud/blood/ichor on the skin clothes or weapons, their age, weight, height... and that's all the ones I can think of inside a few minutes. Creating these sprites through layering sprites on top of one another would result in a billionty sprites being drawn at once. Pre-compiling the sprites might work, but it would have to recompile them every time a dwarf picked something up, or got some blood on them. Additionally, Toady's OCD is such that any inaccuracy in the display is unforgivable. Better to hold your tongue than to tell a lie.
I've long since learned the futility of trying to reason with you Chris, since even if I make an irrefutable argument you'll redefine the parameters you started with until the entire discussion was rendered moot. So whatever.
In the end: If you don't like it, don't play. It sucks that it's not more accessible, but hey, Toady can steer his boat wherever he pleases. I'm just happy to enjoy the (free) ride.
--Scythe--<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
All of that information is more or less irrelevant, you only need to know a few things.
1: What type of dwarf is it?
2: What is it doing?
3: How healthy/equipped is it?
So, different sprites for different dwarf types (as in most graphics packs) would be the start, then you would add some sort of floating icon to indicate what it's doing, like a small pickaxe above its head to denote mining, a bushel of grain to indicate farming, a bow to indicate hunting, swords to indicate fighting or performing military duties and so on. Similar to something like the sims or the settlers (I think one of the settler versions had those? Not sure). Underneath the dwarf you can put a HP bar, while DF doesn't technically have HP you can boil down the limb system into 'how close is the dwarf to death from damage?' and represent it on a scale. For equipment you can have a status icon to the side of the dwarf which flashes if the dwarf needs something, it can flash food or water or a tool or whatever.
All this is doable with a proper sprite based system, rather than a tileset which changes based on what occupies the tile. Instead you make the dwarf a sprite, and can draw things around it on neighbouring tiles, and scale the icons independently of the grid, so if you zoom in the icons can stay the same on-screen size to allow multiple icons per grid square. Which would help display particularly crowded locations.
For other creatures you can probably just go with 'what creature is it' and a hitpoint bar, nobody gives a damn if the goblin happens to have cooking skills and red hair, how dead is the goblin and what is it wielding?
Prioritisation is key, the interface has to show important things before pointless fluff, to that end you can probably remove the rock items entirely and just have them be visible if you activate look around, you don't really need to know that the entire floor is covered with rocks which are taking up your limited display space and stopping you seeing the horde of cave crocodiles or whatever that climbed out of the well.
Combine that with more mouse control for the interface, being able to select dwarves or buildings with the mouse and click it to do stuff is useful, rather than having to press Q arrow keys A B A B A B A B A B I can just double click the still half a dozen times to order a quick run of booze. Much simpler. Or I can click a goblin and in the menu it will list my military squads and I can just click one and they will go attack this goblin. Basic interface advances that have been done in all sorts of games in the past decade, progress, playability, fun.
Yeah, that totally sounds like it wouldn't be confusing or cluttered at all.
The thing is, you can already see those things with reasonable accuracy. Your dwarves are color coded based on what they're most skilled in. You can propably deduce what job a dwarf is doing based on what it's supposed to be doing, what it's carrying, where it's headed etc. A farmer dwarf walking towards a farm is propably going to farm. You can already see if a dwarf is seriously wounded, hungry, thirsty, tired, nauseous, etc. If you need any more detail on any of these, you can look at them with a cursor to get more detail.
Sure, the interface isn't great, but it works and I don't mind it. Really, if you can't handle it, make a utility program that adds your thousand floating icons or don't play it.
The thing is, you can already see those things with reasonable accuracy. Your dwarves are color coded based on what they're most skilled in. You can propably deduce what job a dwarf is doing based on what it's supposed to be doing, what it's carrying, where it's headed etc. A farmer dwarf walking towards a farm is propably going to farm. You can already see if a dwarf is seriously wounded, hungry, thirsty, tired, nauseous, etc. If you need any more detail on any of these, you can look at them with a cursor to get more detail.
Sure, the interface isn't great, but it works and I don't mind it. Really, if you can't handle it, make a utility program that adds your thousand floating icons or don't play it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah it can be confusing I guess, although I think most people can read two intutive icons and a coloured bar for each unit, most games give the option to toggle them on and off. You could perhaps hide the extra info unless you mouseover, hitpoint bars are often done like that, although some alerts should probably be displayed always. Just general interface things you see in most RTS games you know? Find intuitive and effective ways of displaying the info the players need to know, when they need to know it.
I can certainly play dwarf fortress, I can use 3dstudio max so I'm not exactly overwhelmed by the idea of a bunch of weird stuff I don't know what it does, but it still isn't good, it still should be improved. Being able to hop on one leg does not make two legs any less of a good idea.
Soo a HP bar?
It doesn't have to actually have HP, it's just a bar is a good way of representing health, you can make it different colours, it's easy to read in any language, it's standard so people will know what it means, and it provides very accurate information.
All of which make it an ideal interface solution.