Evolutionary points vs. hive requirement?
Temphage
Join Date: 2009-10-28 Member: 69158Members
Join Date: 2009-10-28 Member: 69158Members
Alright well admittedly I don't completely know how alien upgrades and ###### are going to work, but here's what's on my mind -
One of the more silly things I found about NS1 was the 'hive requirement' for certain abilities. It was artificially limiting and, to be honest, most Hive 3 abilities weren't worth it at all. The biggest payoff was in the 3x3 upgrades, Xenocide, and Charge (for destroying buildings, it was utterly worthless against marines). Nobody gave a damn about Web, or Acid Rocket, and while I'm sure people are going to bore me with anecdotal evidence about how they totally pwnz0red the entire marine team with web once, the point is it was hardly a game-breaking ability like Xenocide or Babblers were.
Anyway, why not give all alien lifeforms a handful of weapons/abilities and let players purchase the ones they want? Provide them with a second resource that is simply stocked based on the number of hives and assign a value to all upgrades and weapons, or base it on the current res system, or whatever, I don't care. Point is, given how the upgrades all revolved around the same 4 or 5, just make especially powerful ones more expensive.
Seeing as how the Marine side is going towards a blend of combat-esque upgrade system, why not let the Alien one do that too? Once upon a time, the alien team was <i>supposed</i> to be all about individual flexibility... but then again, NS3.0 inexplicably turned the Aliens into the teamworky side too, so **** knows what's going on.
One of the more silly things I found about NS1 was the 'hive requirement' for certain abilities. It was artificially limiting and, to be honest, most Hive 3 abilities weren't worth it at all. The biggest payoff was in the 3x3 upgrades, Xenocide, and Charge (for destroying buildings, it was utterly worthless against marines). Nobody gave a damn about Web, or Acid Rocket, and while I'm sure people are going to bore me with anecdotal evidence about how they totally pwnz0red the entire marine team with web once, the point is it was hardly a game-breaking ability like Xenocide or Babblers were.
Anyway, why not give all alien lifeforms a handful of weapons/abilities and let players purchase the ones they want? Provide them with a second resource that is simply stocked based on the number of hives and assign a value to all upgrades and weapons, or base it on the current res system, or whatever, I don't care. Point is, given how the upgrades all revolved around the same 4 or 5, just make especially powerful ones more expensive.
Seeing as how the Marine side is going towards a blend of combat-esque upgrade system, why not let the Alien one do that too? Once upon a time, the alien team was <i>supposed</i> to be all about individual flexibility... but then again, NS3.0 inexplicably turned the Aliens into the teamworky side too, so **** knows what's going on.
Comments
Webs and acid rockets were game stoppers.
Webs and acid rockets were game stoppers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First of all smartass, what does this have to do with the actual idea I posted? Don't bore me with your insipid bull###### anecdotal posts that I said in the original post were inevitable and yet still entirely irrelevant.
Finally, I'll bite: The only thing acid rocket was good for was harassing jetpack marines - and even then a good blink / swipe was way more effective. It did less damage than a lerk bite with the same energy cost of Devour. It's a TERRIBLE Hive 3 ability. Acid Rocket was great in earlier (better) iterations of NS, and as a consequence they moved it to Hive 3 and SEVERELY nerfed it in every aspect.
And web wasn't, by definition of the ability, a 'game stopper'. It's a defensive ability and by the time you had Hive 3, if your team weren't a pile of impotent goons, it was unlikely you were going to NEED defensive abilities. Additionally, it was completely negated by a welder which, by the time Hive 3 rolled around, was equipped by every single marine anyway - which is complete and total crap. Not like aliens have an ability that makes HMGs stop firing or siege cannons to jam.
Finally, maybe it's a testament to what an incredibly **** player you were, but most games were over before Hive 3 even rolled around. The epic two-hour comeback died years and years ago.
Then again if you learn to play through combat alone then I understand where you're coming from. Who would want to play a gorge in combat.
Great, temphate said I was a bad player. I think I'll go cut some wrists.
Then again if you learn to play through combat alone then I understand where you're coming from. Who would want to play a gorge in combat.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Welder train. Not 'welder parking lot'. Acid rocket does such pitiful damage you're on crack if you think a welder train would ever stop because of a whopping 50 damage. Oh no. Help. We're being crushed by a Fade who has no energy anymore now. Woe is us.
Hell in the thread just over there people are also saying Web was never used. Get back on the topic and stop boring me with your stupid stories.
They are locked till the late/endgame for a reason though. If you could choose between all abilities and number of hives only limits the amount of them to use, you'd have dominating aliens.
Just imagine early-game webs or xenocide, when marines don't have the means to counter or fight these abilities.
Of course it could be a solution to change these abilities and allow aliens to choose among all weapons, but UWE took the other route and made marines more like aliens regarding the techs.
Now marines also have to expand and occupy tech-rooms to unlock weapons and equipment and I like that approach, because it also means that marines can't turtle up in on room with all their tech and cause stalemates, while the alien team controls the rest of the map.
Edit: I fully agree with tjosan though. You seem to have no clue or it's some nice trolling.
Acid rocket does dbl damage to armor, that's why tjosan made that example, and 50 dmg is a lot considering the rate of fire.
In addition to splash/area damage, meta and probably nearby mc, this means perma-welding for marines.
On any other situation than pushing a big pub MS, AR and web are game breaking indeed. Can't picture any team being able to withstand 3 hive aliens for long, just because xeno and AR wear your numbers down like crazy. It's like spore^10 and even spore is a pain for the most of the round. In addition any mine defence you had becomes completely useless because of AR and xeno. Combine that with web stopping any kind of quick map progress and you're in terrible shape.
I can't see any particular need for such system. Commander being able to see what tech aliens have and adapting to it is strategy. Meanwhile in combat it quickly goes into a mess because you're forced to counter a gazillion thingys simultaneously.
<!--quoteo(post=1753808:date=Feb 18 2010, 08:09 AM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Feb 18 2010, 08:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1753808"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Finally, maybe it's a testament to what an incredibly **** player you were, but most games were over before Hive 3 even rolled around. The epic two-hour comeback died years and years ago.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, the guy who won ENSL at the arguable peak of NS teamplay and individual skill is a ###### player.
You can still lock out abilities to three hives by making them too expensive, and I'm not completely opposed to still restricting upgrades to a degree. Just moreso to remove how incredibly inflexible aliens are (doubly so given how in all NS versions, only about four or five upgrades were even viable anyway).
<!--quoteo(post=1753824:date=Feb 18 2010, 10:07 AM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Feb 18 2010, 10:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1753824"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Meanwhile in combat it quickly goes into a mess because you're forced to counter a gazillion thingys simultaneously.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
At the same time, we're facing a situation where marines are becoming less and less dependent on the commander and more self-reliant. To not allow the aliens to do the same is lunacy. If anything that just serves the augment the pro-marine bias NS slowly took around 2.0.
What I've understood, marines are going closer to what aliens are in NS1. Can't see direct justification for aliens to go further, especially if it eliminates half of the possible soft counter and strategy adaptations.
In combat I just blindly go for my upgrade routine 95% of the time, because there isn't one bit of upgrade strategy I can do. Everything gets thrown up at me, so I'm just better off going for a overall good upgrade path instead of trying to use my brain to figure out some kind of gameplay plan depending on what I see from my opponent's play. I want to avoid similar situation in NS2. The tech needs at least some indications and limitations.
Hive 2 is all you need to end the game.
Hive 3 is just overkill. Humiliation for marines. It allows for the third upgrade chamber.
Go back to combat. You don't know how to play classic NS.
haha yeah so true.
It still has the hives limit the abilities allowed, but gives a bit more flexibility and strategy. Should you spend for quick early abilities or save for a more expensive ability that you can only have for one life? Perhaps also have upkeep while you have those abilities to prevent people from waiting for the last one and surviving long enough with it to just re-buy again.
I will agree that typically Hive2 is all you need and really Hive3 was designed to help the Aliens end it. Kinda like Marines getting HA+JP and enough res to give to entire team is really supposed to end it for the Marines.
I got a great laugh out of this.
Original poster really doesn't understand why Hive 3 abilities are good. Just play NS1 in classic mode and you'll get it.
Xeno on the other hand is one of the most game decisive abilities, because not only its very effective against a pack of marines, it'll leave most jetpacks 1-hit against fades.
Just some time ago I played a pickup-game where I didn't check for a cloak hive, and got a unpleasant surprise few mins later. Well no problem, beacon, jetpacks to sub, shoot hive, beacon before they die, repeat, and hive down. Too bad the gorges didn't use web.
And Hive2 is not game-over for marines. Jetpacks with W3 HMG's and SG's will destroy equally-skilled fades. When jetpacks take off, aliens are on the verge of losing the game unless they get 3rd hive up or DC's up, 2 hives is not enough unless the jetpacks fail big time.
Suggestion is not good for simply the reason that currently 2-hives will crush LA's easily but in the end jetpacks or heavies will destroy 2-hive lifeforms. However Focus/Cele/Cara-fades practically dominate everything. Chainless chambers isn't that bad idea, but it'd need some serious balancing, because marines lose the game in current NS if aliens get all chambers up and a few fades. This means 3rd chamber would have to cost something, if not hives, then res, but in my opinion res is more boring than hives because then there're other options aswell (cloak hives, biting 2nd hive down, pg's etc.). Also chainless chambers bring out other problems aswell.
Is keeping on topic really that hard?
I love this idea. I think a tier system would do good, as to not let people simply play gorge, save up points, and then go straight to Onos with the LOL I STOMP AND THROW AND GO SUPERSAIYAN mutation.
I support this.
Is keeping on topic really that hard?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think that basically shut down his argumentation why it should be in the game.
Then there's just left the counter argument that tech shouldn't be too individualistic as it hinders the strategical play by huge amounts.
Are you dopes even presuming to assume I don't understand that 90% of games end <b>because of Hive 2</b>? Generally speaking, most of the time you see Hive 3 go up it's when you've already got the marine team on the ropes. And that's if you even get to Hive 3 at all. I've ended plenty of games without it. Everyone who's played NS even for the briefest amount of time knows this, to the extent that I can't believe I actually have to explain to you that I know how the ****ing game works. What's next, you want to explain to me what TFacts do?
The entire point of this idea is that you no longer have to 'lock out' some sort of endgame super-ability (that is artificially boosted to justify it being 'hive 3'). Webs are a nice tool that would greatly augment alien defenses earlier in the game than 'the last 3 minutes' when you get Hive 3. This makes the weapon practically non-existent as far as gameplay considerations go. Why? Why not allow this weapon to be unlocked earlier? With a set price value for the weapon you could easily require a tradeoff of other abilities and better upgrades to get the things you want. Hell, you could even apply the same upgrade tiers to weapons as you do to upgrades - Hive 1 webs vs. Hive 3, for example.
Nope, they just fail at reading. They saw "LoL Hive 3 is underpowered" or something and rage quit....
Oh for ****s sake.
And really, it's not necessarily a bad thing if Hive 3 abilities exist specifically to end the game. If you've got 3rd Hive up that means you basically own the whole map and are winning easily, so all that's really left to do is finish off the Marine base. Any time you spend doing that is probably going to be garbage time until the next game can begin, so it makes sense if 3rd hive abilities are primarily designed to shorten that process.
The only ability that really suffers from this is Web, since it's a good ability that doesn't accomplish much when the Marines can't get more five steps away from their IP.
Indeed. In optimal situation there aren't any game finisher abilities. The map control and economical advantage through it should be enough to finish the game. I don't know how it works with melee vs ranged and infinite resoucres though.
I guess alien commander could help a lot, since in NS1 some of the problem originates from the fact that aliens can't get lifeforms out quick enough even if it's 8 RTs for them. Maybe alien comm can either direct the res flow to get lifeforms quicker or just overwhelm the marines with some res intense spell support.
Actually I would support chainless chambers and/or upgrades, but I really hope the cost of hive3 abilities would something more tactically interesting than res.