Tranquilizer Gun
Battle-Bug
Join Date: 2010-02-11 Member: 70523Members
Join Date: 2010-02-11 Member: 70523Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Impair, not immobilize</div>This is a topic that has been discussed a few times before. I'd like to suggest something a bit different. There's a lot of non-supporters of marine stun weaponry. So, I've come up with a weapon that doesn't immobilize the aliens, only impairs them.
<!--coloro:#00BFFF--><span style="color:#00BFFF"><!--/coloro--><b>Tranquilizer Gun</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
It shoots darts at a slow velocity to make accuracy difficult. It can only pierce a certain amount of armor to reduce the combat effectiveness on bigger aliens. It distorts, blurs, darkens, etc. the alien vision and HUD (not too much). Its effects are based on the alien's hp and not its class to make wounded aliens vulnerable (loss of strength).
I suggest that it is a pistol replacement, it fires at a rate of 2 darts/sec, it is semi-automatic (like the pistol), and it has a clip of 4-10 darts.
<!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro--><b>Pros</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
1. Allows marines to impede alien mobility. However, a good alien player can still navigate out of the room and out of harms way. We're not talking a flash bang effect, just something to make the craziness of combat a bit crazier.
2. Effect of tranquilizer will be increased with each shot up to the maximum effect. (see picture below)
3. Could cause a failure chance of redemption (if you guys like that idea).
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro--><b>Cons</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
1. Doesn't pierce thick armor. 250-500ap should be the max. Once the armor is depleted (damage can do this), the alien then becomes vulnerable. Otherwise, it has no effect.
2. Has most effect on low hp aliens and little effect on high hp aliens. If an onos and a skulk are both down to 50hp, then they will be effected the same. (see picture below)
3. Darts travel at a slow speed (50-150 feet/sec) to make it difficult to hit a fast moving alien.
4. No actual damage is done to hp or ap.
5. Effect wears off quickly. (see picture below)
6. It takes many hits to create the full effect. (see picture below)
7. Slow rate of fire (compared to pistol).
Suggested values:
<img src="http://img704.imageshack.us/img704/2981/hpveffect.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<img src="http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/1633/hpvduration.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Sample tranquilizer effects at 100% (click next line enlarge):
<img src="http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/7221/effectsamples.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Reference Thread:
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=100447" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=100447</a>
<!--coloro:#00BFFF--><span style="color:#00BFFF"><!--/coloro--><b>Tranquilizer Gun</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
It shoots darts at a slow velocity to make accuracy difficult. It can only pierce a certain amount of armor to reduce the combat effectiveness on bigger aliens. It distorts, blurs, darkens, etc. the alien vision and HUD (not too much). Its effects are based on the alien's hp and not its class to make wounded aliens vulnerable (loss of strength).
I suggest that it is a pistol replacement, it fires at a rate of 2 darts/sec, it is semi-automatic (like the pistol), and it has a clip of 4-10 darts.
<!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro--><b>Pros</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
1. Allows marines to impede alien mobility. However, a good alien player can still navigate out of the room and out of harms way. We're not talking a flash bang effect, just something to make the craziness of combat a bit crazier.
2. Effect of tranquilizer will be increased with each shot up to the maximum effect. (see picture below)
3. Could cause a failure chance of redemption (if you guys like that idea).
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro--><b>Cons</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
1. Doesn't pierce thick armor. 250-500ap should be the max. Once the armor is depleted (damage can do this), the alien then becomes vulnerable. Otherwise, it has no effect.
2. Has most effect on low hp aliens and little effect on high hp aliens. If an onos and a skulk are both down to 50hp, then they will be effected the same. (see picture below)
3. Darts travel at a slow speed (50-150 feet/sec) to make it difficult to hit a fast moving alien.
4. No actual damage is done to hp or ap.
5. Effect wears off quickly. (see picture below)
6. It takes many hits to create the full effect. (see picture below)
7. Slow rate of fire (compared to pistol).
Suggested values:
<img src="http://img704.imageshack.us/img704/2981/hpveffect.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<img src="http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/1633/hpvduration.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Sample tranquilizer effects at 100% (click next line enlarge):
<img src="http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/7221/effectsamples.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Reference Thread:
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=100447" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=100447</a>
Comments
there is a table. on the table lies a Machine gun, and a tranquillizer gun. there is a door leading to a room with a skulk inside.
which do you pick?
why should we be interested in something like that if he can simply kill it effortlessly?
I wouldn't call killing an alien an effortless endeavor. Lets look at the skulk and fade. If you can tranq them pretty well, they will be less likely to hit their intended target when leaping and flying (NS1 blinking). So, in a dark room with lots of bullets, explosions, and such, a tranq'd alien will have trouble finding its target. An experienced player can still see what is going on, but his or her vision is impaired. However, most players may escape to recover.
I don't see this as a Rambo weapon. I see this as more of a team support weapon. It softens up the aliens to help the marines with the big guns.
Ex: A squad has 5 marines (2 hmg, 1 gl, 1 shotgun, 1 lmg/tranq). The tranq marine is obviously the one who won't put much of a dent in an attacking alien force. However, he can impair some of those aliens (if he can hit them). That impairment might mean one less swipe taken or one less teammate killed. Thus, he can fulfill a role as a useful member of the team.
It won't be easy because the devs idea of balancing requires that aliens be very very hard to kill... i.e. all marine weapons will be very ineffective until theirs 4 marines shooting the same alien with heavy weapons (and multiple commanders on standby for med and ammo spam).
The tranquilizer dart idea would be very useful in support of the marines shooting the "deadly" future weapons.
what the hell are you even talking about
Play NS1 and find out :)
I'm sorry but I played NS1 for years and years on end, and still do recently from time to time. I'm quite familiar with the game and how it plays. It is for this reason that I find it so hard to understand what hes claiming. FocusedWolf has, countless times, made posts blatantly ignorant to how NS actually works, and sometimes it sounds like hes talking about an absolutely different game. I believe you should direct your suggestion to to FocusedWolf himself to "play NS1 and find out :)"
People who can aim can shoot down a skulk on their own (infact, a good marine taking down 2 skulks charging him at once is nowhere near out of the question either). They can shoot down a Lerk on their own. With decent upgrades two skilled player can take down a mediocre fade on their own, even. The only exception I see here is, obviously, a very skilled alien playing against total beginner marines who aren't familiar with aliens movement, or just plain don't have aim; xmenu combat servers where fades get tanked out and you literally need tons of hmgs and shotguns shooting at them to take them down. I'm not even talking about the "super-marines" who can solo LMG/Pistol a fade, or short of that, easily drop one with a shotgun by themselves.
I'm just having trouble grasping what exactly FocusedWolf is referencing to. Is it how Fades or Onos are hard to kill? If thats the case, isn't that slightly the point, being that Fade and the Onos are the more beefy aliens which are also more resource heavy? If a fresh spawned marine can walk up and easily dispatch a fade on his own then that screams balance problems. Or is he instead somehow saying that skulks or lerks take 4 marines with heavy weapons and med spam to kill? I'm sorry but if thats the case, you're doing it wrong.
I see a little feasability with this if its put into a secondary fire in another weapon, such as the pistol, thus not forcing players to "gimp" themselves by picking something non-lethal. I just don't think it would be attractive enough of a weapon to grab on ones own.
A tranquilizer gun doesn't seem to fit into the marine arsenal very well either.
I don't like the idea of non-lethal weaponry used on the alien team. In my opinion non-lethal weapons will be a death sentence for a marine. A tranquilizer gun that blurs vision will be like a marine running around trying to blind aliens by throwing a blanket over their heads.
A smoke grenade seems to be a better fit. It could be hand thrown or maybe a secondary ammo type for the grenade launcher. (I prefer hand thrown because loading up a grenade launcher with non-lethal rounds seems kind of risky).
As I said in the example above, this is more for the arsenal of a marine that is in a supporting role. He doesn't have the big guns. A cheap tranq gun can help his teammates more than his pistol or lmg when fighting larger aliens. He still has that lmg, but a few accurate tranq darts at the beginning of combat can put a bigger dent in the alien's offense.
This is probably going to be very helpful for jetpackers too since they are the fastest moving targets.
<!--quoteo(post=1753552:date=Feb 16 2010, 06:53 PM:name=Hybridclaw)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hybridclaw @ Feb 16 2010, 06:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1753552"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A tranquilizer gun doesn't seem to fit into the marine arsenal very well either.
A smoke grenade seems to be a better fit. It could be hand thrown or maybe a secondary ammo type for the grenade launcher. (I prefer hand thrown because loading up a grenade launcher with non-lethal rounds seems kind of risky).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A welder doesn't seem to fit very well into the marine arsenal either when you think about it. If it makes you feel better, we can add the possibility of a cat pack injection as a secondary function :)
As for the smoke, it'll impair the marines more than the aliens because you can't see very far in smoke and the marines need to see far more than the aliens.
As for the smoke, it'll impair the marines more than the aliens because you can't see very far in smoke and the marines need to see far more than the aliens.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True but the welder was never meant to be used in combat and as such is usually never pulled out when confronting aliens.
And as for impairing marine vision, I would assume both teams equally depend on their ability to see. Also marine can control where they want a smoke grenade would land. So unless a marine accidentally drops it in their base, it shouldn't cause a problem.
Side note:
I never really liked cat packs. It felt like primal scream for marines.
The tranquilizer dart idea would be very useful in support of the marines shooting the "deadly" future weapons.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or just one guy with a Shotgun and decent twitch aim.
There's no shame in being bad at NS; it's one of the least friendly games out there for new players. However, the fact that you're unable to play it doesn't make it inherently <i>bad</i>, just like an F1 Car isn't designed "wrong" just because <i>you</i> can't make it through the first turn without going through a wall. If you're really desperate for a game that will hold your hand all the way through, Valve's done some great things with TF2 to make sure absolutely anyone can get kills.
There's no shame in being bad at NS; it's one of the least friendly games out there for new players. However, the fact that you're unable to play it doesn't make it inherently <i>bad</i>, just like an F1 Car isn't designed "wrong" just because <i>you</i> can't make it through the first turn without going through a wall. If you're really desperate for a game that will hold your hand all the way through, Valve's done some great things with TF2 to make sure absolutely anyone can get kills.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thank you for posting exactly what I wanted to say, but in the seemingly-nicest way possible. It goes without saying I agree with this post.
I've been told that it originally was a strong alternative to the knife. In any case, it does do a small amount of damage. That shows combat potential.
<!--quoteo(post=1753569:date=Feb 16 2010, 08:55 PM:name=Hybridclaw)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hybridclaw @ Feb 16 2010, 08:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1753569"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And as for impairing marine vision, I would assume both teams equally depend on their ability to see. Also marine can control where they want a smoke grenade would land. So unless a marine accidentally drops it in their base, it shouldn't cause a problem.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem is that if you blanket an area with smoke, you can't see what is in it or behind it. As a marine with a long range weapon, that doesn't help much (in my opinion). It gives the enemy a place to hide while you have the range advantage.
<!--quoteo(post=1753573:date=Feb 16 2010, 09:25 PM:name=PSA)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PSA @ Feb 16 2010, 09:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1753573"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But who do you expect to TAKE the tranq gun over a "real" gun? Conventional thinking has it as nearly all players are going to voluntarily take the "real," damage doing gun". This is the point I'm trying to bring up. Unless you're suggesting bringing in "classes" of marines and thus having a forced-support-class, ala TF2? *shudder*<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's meant to replace your secondary weapon (the weapon that is normally used the least). If your potential 10 pistol bullets hit and do the possible 200 dmg, then it might be worth having the pistol. However, chances are that you do about enough damage to kill a skulk. If instead you could reduce the number of times your teammates are hit by messing with the aim of the aliens, then it might be more useful.
Note: We could change it to an additional weapon, but that doesn't feel balanced to me because you're not sacrificing anything.
The tranq is designed to enhance the gameplay of support personnel, but it also yields alternate strategies to combat personnel. A jetpack who tranqs the crap out of a fade will have an easier time killing it. However, he has to risk his neck for a few seconds to get in some good shots that have a limited effect on a healthy fade. Then he'll have greater ease in eluding its hits. Or... a heavy could stand by the entrance of a room with the tranq gun and disorient incoming aliens so that his teammates in the room can kill them before they find their way out (disoriented)
<!--quoteo(post=1753578:date=Feb 16 2010, 10:45 PM:name=pSyk0mAn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (pSyk0mAn @ Feb 16 2010, 10:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1753578"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not so fond of this idea either, but I'm basicly just posting, because I want to applaud you for a rather good presentation of your idea.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thank you. These aren't my first suggestion forums. I've seen a variety of discussion boards with different rules of organization and presentation of ideas.
It's called teamwork. Not very hard to imagine... For example in the movie Aliens they were thinking of using 7 canisters of CN-20 nerve gas...
I wonder if that would be a better way for marines to have the "tranqulizer gun" ability, but in the form of a launchable grenade (we'll just assume at this point the LMG has an integrated or attachable grenade launcher like the infamous M41A Pulse Rifle). Hmm that would be not bad because you can just right click to fire those and left click to spray 99 rounds on incendiary rounds.... i like it :)
Anyways Battle-Bug, you're starting to slowly convince me. It has some potential, but I still think it wouldn't be used enough to warrent inclusion into the game, but thats just me I guess. I think a lot of it will depend exactly how our new pistol performs as well. In the current NS1 model, having that sniping pistol is pretty useful for long ranges when you're a shotgunner, or even HMGer.
Thanks for the compliment :)
We haven't discussed Pro #3. The tranq gun could present a failure rate of redemption. Lets say that full effect gave a possibility of 50% redemption failure. Most of the time, a full effect will not be present. Not only does it take several hits to get to full effect, but it immediately starts to diminish, so the 50% is only a theoretical value.
I'd guess that the average might be more like 15%. So, one out of every 6 2/3 redemptions would fail on average. So, on average, the alien team will have less higher lifeforms if the tranq is used. However, this difference isn't huge, so it shouldn't upset the balance too much. Also, a tranq'd alien that can't see (or hear) well and knows that its redemption has a good chance of failing will be likely to flee, so the tranq gun should gain an intimidation factor.
Also, we could talk about the possibility of draining alien energy (adrenaline). A tranquilizer usually puts an animal to sleep. Sleep = loss of energy... So, full effect might reduce energy regeneration by 50%. I guess that the average might be more like 15%... etc.
<!--quoteo(post=1753751:date=Feb 17 2010, 05:11 PM:name=Voyager I)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Voyager I @ Feb 17 2010, 05:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1753751"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The idea might have some merit, but would probably be about a million times more annoying for the Alien team than it will be fun or useful for the Marines. Can you imagine how many people are gonna ragequit when they lose lifeforms (that they can't get back easily) because of an interface screw?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is why I suggested that takes several hits through a low amount of armor to get the full effect... and it has little use on high hp aliens. This should help make it balanced.
I can tell you from playing Perfect Dark on N64 (which had a tranq gun), that you can play with burred vision and muffled sound with no problem. However, dark rooms with lots of action can be confusing.
As a side note, the tranq gun in Perfect Dark had "Lethal Injection" as its secondary function. It was a 1 hit kill (I'm not in favor of those) if it hit an enemy at point blank range (within arms length).
So if i blast a fade a few times with my shotgun... he shouldn't be able to escape like i'm shooting blanks right? I forget if NS1 possessed some mechanism that caused the alien to loose adrenaline as they took damage, but that can also be considered an effect.
Be careful with the word "stun" around pro-khaara people. Why do you think I'm aiming for impairment and not immobilization?
I'll make some threads later on some other ideas on the topic (I've got a list of about 40 ideas)... now back to the tranq gun discussion.
I'm going to take advantage of that "ignore" button now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Please quit being a hostile ###### and actually listen to his points.
None of what you have posted has been constructive, just "Feed me more and see if I like it lol".
<!--quoteo(post=1753732:date=Feb 17 2010, 02:08 PM:name=PSA)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PSA @ Feb 17 2010, 02:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1753732"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->the current NS1 model<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Enough said.
In other news, I like this idea. I am against PP effects that take <i>that</i> much control of your vision (the examples you posted)...
But if you're a bad enough alien to get hit by that many shots (keep in mind that these are slower than bullet projectiles), then you deserve to be punished (by the player that sacrificed firepower for teamwork and support).
On the other hand, if you are a charging Onos, a few players shooting tranqs with a few players spraying LMGs will quickly get you into the danger zone. Thinking of a 4v1 situation, this is fair to the Onos player. He paid good <strike>money</strike> resources for those mutations and that lifeform, but charged in recklessly. If he had some skulks nipping at their heels, or even a spore lerk, the marines would have a far lower chance of hitting the beast while distracted by all the other lifeforms.
Let's culture this beauty.
They actually aren't that bad. I tried to make sure that you could see decently well. Remember that those are the FULL EFFECT and that it takes a many hits with slow darts while you don't have a real gun out. If it is truly too hard to see, then we can back off. Those were just examples that I quickly made.
You can see well enough to gtfo if you know where the exits are. Most of the time, people are familiar with a map or at least remember where they entered.
Its effectiveness isn't really against the smaller creatures. For skulks/lerks/gorges, you don't need a tranq gun. The primary weapon coupled with a pistol is enough to take them down without too much hassle. In my opinion, the tranq gun is more for the heavier units like the fade or the onos. It does encourage teamwork since a lone wolf with a tranq gun + primary weapon isn't going to far much better than if he had a secondary weapon + primary weapon. It would be much more effective however, if one guy in a group had the tranq gun.
I'm only for the disorientation of the alien player, and not the lowering of its energy, or reducing health, or affecting any of its upgrades like redemption.
At this point in time, the Devs probably have got the weapons in their head all set in stone already. So I think the tranq gun would be an interesting idea for a mod or a future patch.
I'm only for the disorientation of the alien player, and not the lowering of its energy, or reducing health, or affecting any of its upgrades like redemption.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You got the right idea as far as strategy goes. It will be very affective against smaller aliens, but they're weak and fast enough that any gun is preferred over the tranq.
As for the second part, there may be some miscommunication. The idea behind the tranq affecting energy is that it reduces the speed with with it replenishes. It does not actually drain energy. It does not affect health at all. I don't have my heart set on the redemption failure, but I'd like to reiterate that it is a low chance.
Something we haven't discussed much is the effect on audio. I believe that a muffling, echoing, and even mono-ing (reducing stereo effect to mono) would be sufficient. Also, the degree to which these are done is scalable.