Zeal: Bhop replacement / Movement upgrade
Renegade.
Join Date: 2003-01-15 Member: 12313Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2003-01-15 Member: 12313Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">a movement-based gameplay substitute for the bunnyhop</div>It's become evident that bunnyhopping in its current form is not going to make it into NS2; however it's critical role in kharaa gameplay means it cannot be removed completely without an adverse affect on movement ability. "Zeal" is an idea that might offset this, and even ignoring bunnyhopping completely, may make an interesting Movement upgrade.
<!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Zeal<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
On keeping the enemy focused within its sight at a certain distance, the kharaa lifeform will move slightly faster to close the gap. The movement speed increase should be around the same given by bunnyhopping (i.e. this is <i>not</i> a leap replacement). The aiming tolerance and distance can be balanced as needed, an initial guess may be around 20 degrees and 6 metres (or the length of a small hallway/room). The player can be made aware when they are in Zeal by having the outer area of the view blurred to give the effect of heightened speed.
Alternatively, this can be shifted from an innate ability, to a researched "Movement" upgrade. If so, it would be adjusted to differ from celerity by giving the player a choice between constant speed (celerity) and faster speed in combat situations (zeal).
The primary intent is to give players a bunnyhopping replacement, but more importantly to heighten immersion and engagement as the pace of the player naturally adapts with the situation. How many times after an intense engagement as skulk do we find ourselves several inches closer to the screen, as if to get us that much closer to the target? Zeal attempts to enhance this natural response by manifesting it inside the game.
Another advantage of Zeal is that it can be made arbitrary hard or easy to perform by simply adjusting the aim tolerance (with 20 deg. being simple "looking at" and 4-5 deg. being equivalent to the type of accuracy you would need on marines). This nicely complements a point made by another forum member, that bunnyhopping is the skill equivalent of aiming on rines.
If the devs do not already have a plan for substituting the bhop, I hope they seriously consider this. It's intuitive, immersive, doesn't require button-mashing or extra binds, is unscriptable/unexploitable, and can be balanced on several factors (accuracy, distance, speed gain, and even class) to achieve the appropriate skill curve.
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To keep track of additions so far:<ul><li>Zeal - (original idea) movement speed is increased while focusing on an enemy</li><li>Zeal: <!--coloro:orange--><span style="color:orange"><!--/coloro-->Momentum<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> - maximum zeal is maintained while focus remains fixed</li><li>Zeal: <!--coloro:indigo--><span style="color:indigo"><!--/coloro-->Brethren<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> - zeal is also achieved while focusing on teammates</li></ul>
<!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Zeal<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
On keeping the enemy focused within its sight at a certain distance, the kharaa lifeform will move slightly faster to close the gap. The movement speed increase should be around the same given by bunnyhopping (i.e. this is <i>not</i> a leap replacement). The aiming tolerance and distance can be balanced as needed, an initial guess may be around 20 degrees and 6 metres (or the length of a small hallway/room). The player can be made aware when they are in Zeal by having the outer area of the view blurred to give the effect of heightened speed.
Alternatively, this can be shifted from an innate ability, to a researched "Movement" upgrade. If so, it would be adjusted to differ from celerity by giving the player a choice between constant speed (celerity) and faster speed in combat situations (zeal).
The primary intent is to give players a bunnyhopping replacement, but more importantly to heighten immersion and engagement as the pace of the player naturally adapts with the situation. How many times after an intense engagement as skulk do we find ourselves several inches closer to the screen, as if to get us that much closer to the target? Zeal attempts to enhance this natural response by manifesting it inside the game.
Another advantage of Zeal is that it can be made arbitrary hard or easy to perform by simply adjusting the aim tolerance (with 20 deg. being simple "looking at" and 4-5 deg. being equivalent to the type of accuracy you would need on marines). This nicely complements a point made by another forum member, that bunnyhopping is the skill equivalent of aiming on rines.
If the devs do not already have a plan for substituting the bhop, I hope they seriously consider this. It's intuitive, immersive, doesn't require button-mashing or extra binds, is unscriptable/unexploitable, and can be balanced on several factors (accuracy, distance, speed gain, and even class) to achieve the appropriate skill curve.
-
To keep track of additions so far:<ul><li>Zeal - (original idea) movement speed is increased while focusing on an enemy</li><li>Zeal: <!--coloro:orange--><span style="color:orange"><!--/coloro-->Momentum<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> - maximum zeal is maintained while focus remains fixed</li><li>Zeal: <!--coloro:indigo--><span style="color:indigo"><!--/coloro-->Brethren<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> - zeal is also achieved while focusing on teammates</li></ul>
Comments
And Dauntless...I don't see how that is very relevant to a skulk who can just leap about and stick to walls as he wants?
This. I can only see the speed boost from bhop transferred. That misses 95% of the awesomeness that comes from the route picks, map travel, interesting accelration gain, air curving, exact control and such.
In addition I'd much rather alien skill relying on something that isn't tracking related. Marines already have that.
We don't even know how is the new leap, how is the air movement of the engine, the skulk speed ratio compared to marines, the marines jump and back jump (I don't think the back jump will exist either)
<!--quoteo(post=1747084:date=Jan 13 2010, 02:29 AM:name=Dauntl3ss)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dauntl3ss @ Jan 13 2010, 02:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1747084"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This might be a good idea for the hardcore among us, but as far as I've comprehended, NS2 is going to be a bit easier for new players than NS1. And this seems to be targeted towards the pros. Personally I like the idea though, but what I'd really love to see in NS2 (as alien, mostly skulk) is this: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qT0vOEjF-ig" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qT0vOEjF-ig</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So that's what Bethesda has been working on !
Having to maintain line of sight is also a problem considering how much of skulk play in NS is about not maintaining line of sight. Additionally you wouldn't be able to aim your leaps while using this.
It's an interesting idea, though I don't think it could substitute for bunnyhopping for the above reasons and those others have posted.
Edit: some people have the impression that you would have to run directly at your target to take advantage of this, but that's not true. You could strafe.
Refer to the last part of OP, about adjusting the skill-curve. There are at least 4 different attributes you can use to adjust skill. As a simple example, if you make the aim radius 2-4% then you have an almost direct parallel to the skill-curve of marine aiming. Obviously this is not the best example, but through testing a better combination can be found.
<!--quoteo(post=1747155:date=Jan 13 2010, 11:03 AM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Jan 13 2010, 11:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1747155"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This. I can only see the speed boost from bhop transferred. That misses 95% of the awesomeness that comes from the route picks, map travel, interesting accelration gain, air curving, exact control and such.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can imagine a form of "slingshotting" being introduced where a player must pick targets wisely so as not to move in a straight line, but also attempt to maintain their Zeal. Do you focus on Target 1 while moving forward? Or you do strafe? Or do you use multiple targets to pick a random path among them, focusing on each for only a short while, but still maintaining Zeal?
<!--quoteo(post=1747158:date=Jan 13 2010, 11:09 AM:name=Pipi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pipi @ Jan 13 2010, 11:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1747158"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think that the Zeal is enough of a considerable idea to substitute bunny hopping. Your talking about a straight lined dash towards a marine feature. If I put the idea in NS1, it fails.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--><!--quoteo(post=1747179:date=Jan 13 2010, 01:45 PM:name=Draco_2k)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Draco_2k @ Jan 13 2010, 01:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1747179"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Good idea, but a player bolting forward in a straight line is the easiest target next to standing still, making it more of a sneak rather than attack move. Not sure what ramifications this would have on the gameplay, especially under currently unknown NS2 mechanics.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--><!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Dunno I prefer staying out of a rines sight for as long as instead of going in the open and walking in a straight line to him.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's hard to imagine exactly how this will be used in skilled hands, but the example I give above shows at least one way in which it doesn't have to be linear. Players will need to find the right balance between "direct attack" or "random movements while finding Zeal". Naturally the latter could give way to a certain Zeal "flow" that skilled players will see while attacking multiple targets. Like bunnyhopping or blink, it's hard to predict what these kinds of abilities will look like in skilled hands; In the least, it'd be interesting to see it tested for a while.
<!--quoteo(post=1747208:date=Jan 13 2010, 04:38 PM:name=a_civilian)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (a_civilian @ Jan 13 2010, 04:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1747208"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One potential problem: a player would need to use +moveup/+movedown to effectively utilize this while wallwalking (assuming wallwalking is handled similarly to NS).
Having to maintain line of sight is also a problem considering how much of skulk play in NS is about not maintaining line of sight. Additionally you wouldn't be able to aim your leaps while using this.
It's an interesting idea, though I don't think it could substitute for bunnyhopping for the above reasons and those others have posted.
Edit: some people have the impression that you would have to run directly at your target to take advantage of this, but that's not true. You could strafe.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Everything said here is a good point; I would go so far as to say that these are not "problems" but in fact skills to be learned:
Wallwalking while using Zeal, like navigating while bunnyhopping, shouldn't be inherently easy, it should require learning.
Staying out of line of sight means that Zeal is a thinking skill - players must choose when to use it carefully.
Leaping is a powerful skill, which means stacking it effectively with Zeal should not be easy - much like maintaining momentum off a leap, it will require practice.
You've got it - strafing will be one obvious method of breaking up linear movement while in Zeal. The other I imagine could be to use multiple targets as slingshots to navigate more quickly about the room. All this is speculation though, I don't even know myself!
<!--quoteo(post=1747211:date=Jan 13 2010, 05:47 PM:name=PSA)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PSA @ Jan 13 2010, 05:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1747211"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I guess when I was thinking about it I wasn't invisioning a "strait line to marine run," but more of a speed boost while zeal is activated/in use, and with that speed boost you can relateively pick your approach to your target, incorporating any number of jumps, wall runs, wall jumps, wiggle walking, etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed 100%, along with a_civilian's post.
<!--quoteo(post=1747232:date=Jan 13 2010, 09:44 PM:name=juice)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (juice @ Jan 13 2010, 09:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1747232"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This "replacement" makes me sad. It shows a lack of understanding/appreciation for what bhop+airspeed was and how dynamic it is in the right hands. It was a balance between confinement and freedom. This idea is nice, maybe it could be used to complement some classes, but the concept is too linear and does not self-interact so can't be thought of as substituting in any way for airspeed. Also, it rewards mouselook aim, which is a different skill set from that used in airspeed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lack of understanding? Hardly, I myself wrote a few articles on bunnyhopping; I know precisely what was rewarding about it, and likewise, what was frustrating. As I say, Zeal will never be a direct replacement;<b>nothing</b> will. It is only a substitute, possibly either more or less rewarding/useful.
Again, we've seen reasons why it need not be linear. Like blink or pancaking who could have predicted how players would have used it on paper? I think Zeal could unfold in depth if given a chance in players hands.
1.) It can't be used as any kind of travel method with tradeoffs.
2.) You can use it only while exposed to the enemy. What skulk does before entering the line of sight is a huge deal of present skulking. Bhop contributes to that far better than zeal. Once you're exposed as a skulk, there's only that much you can do.
3.) Because you're targetting, you can't use the precision of mouse driven controls to guide the skulk as much. Bhop is awesome because with mouse and strafe keys you can perform insane jump sets on rails, ceiling objects and almost anything else you find in the maps. Once you get natural with the bhop control, it's more accurate, responsive and adaptive than just using the directional movement keys.
4.) Tracking is the skill that marines use. Why make alien skill revolve around the same thing?
1.) It can't be used as any kind of travel method with tradeoffs.
2.) You can use it only while exposed to the enemy. What skulk does before entering the line of sight is a huge deal of present skulking. Bhop contributes to that far better than zeal. Once you're exposed as a skulk, there's only that much you can do.
3.) Because you're targetting, you can't use the precision of mouse driven controls to guide the skulk as much. Bhop is awesome because with mouse and strafe keys you can perform insane jump sets on rails, ceiling objects and almost anything else you find in the maps. Once you get natural with the bhop control, it's more accurate, responsive and adaptive than just using the directional movement keys.
4.) Tracking is the skill that marines use. Why make alien skill revolve around the same thing?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) You mention the tradeoff: exposure vs. speed.
2) You can only use bhop <i>before</i> engaging the enemy; contrast that with Zeal, which can be used while attacking. This not only counter-balances what you mention, it is also a surprise counter for knockback/shifty marines. To re-iterate, Zeal isn't bhop 2.0, it's a substitute; yes it's going to differ a little.
3) Any one of those can be seen as good or bad: a) bhop requires strafe keys, Zeal does not b) bhop cannot be used on walls, Zeal can, c) bhop restricts movement and aim, Zeal does not.
There is going to be an innumerable list of pros/cons for each difference, but please focus discussion on Zeal as a movement modifier substitute for bhop, not how it differs point-by-point from bhop.
4) I don't see a problem with this, just about every kharaa attack except for primal scream requires tracking. But even so Zeal only uses tracking, it is not the focus (unless the aiming tolerance is made very low). A large part of it is determining when, how long, and on which targets to use it.
only issues
-can't use this to move quickly around the map
-running is a straight line is not always good (bhop provided a means of being hard to shoot as well as speed)
This.
I don't see where the actual skill would come in here.
*gollum jumping up and down like on drugs springs to mind*
yeah, like that.
*gollum jumping up and down like on drugs springs to mind*
yeah, like that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So you play by running straight at the enemy? Solid.
I guess my biggest problem is that this ability is to help "aliens close the gap" but closing the gap is one of the most skillful parts of playing as an alien. Distance is some of the aliens weakness and a good player was able to close the gap through their own abilities. This sounds like the game is doing it for the player, thereby making the process devoid of any skill.
<!--quoteo(post=1747305:date=Jan 14 2010, 04:51 PM:name=R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e @ Jan 14 2010, 04:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1747305"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1) You mention the tradeoff: exposure vs. speed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I also mentioned a method of map movement. Being dependand on exposure as a skulk is going to give you 10 seconds of movement per lifetime at max, most often it's more like 3 seconds.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2) You can only use bhop <i>before</i> engaging the enemy; contrast that with Zeal, which can be used while attacking. This not only counter-balances what you mention, it is also a surprise counter for knockback/shifty marines. To re-iterate, Zeal isn't bhop 2.0, it's a substitute; yes it's going to differ a little.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The point was that skulk lives or dies based on what it does before becoming exposed to the enemy detection. Zeal completely misses a huge part of skulk gameplay and because of that it doesn't make a good substitute. I can see it being a feature, but not a substitute as long as it misses such important parts of the system it's supposed to replace.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->3) Any one of those can be seen as good or bad: a) bhop requires strafe keys, Zeal does not b) bhop cannot be used on walls, Zeal can, c) bhop restricts movement and aim, Zeal does not.
There is going to be an innumerable list of pros/cons for each difference, but please focus discussion on Zeal as a movement modifier substitute for bhop, not how it differs point-by-point from bhop.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can't see how bhop limits movement and zeal doesn't. Anyway, the main point is that bhop leaves mouse free to control the air curve, which allows <b>precision that can't be achieved with keyboard only</b>. That makes zeal a bad substitute once again.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->4) I don't see a problem with this, just about every kharaa attack except for primal scream requires tracking. But even so Zeal only uses tracking, it is not the focus (unless the aiming tolerance is made very low). A large part of it is determining when, how long, and on which targets to use it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No idea how you play aliens, but I can't see any lifeform tracking marines intensively. Anyway, you're both relying on tracking as a skill element and still claiming it doesn't have the focus in it. If aliens are going to have twitch skill, it's going to be based on the tracking on your theory. I can see the skill in picking targets, but once again mechanical skill is an essential part of bhop, a substitute should account it.
By all means call it a feature, but please don't call it a substitute.
-running is a straight line is not always good (bhop provided a means of being hard to shoot as well as speed)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
rightfully so, Zeal is a combat skill, not an always-on attribute like celerity.
see above why it's not necessarily a straight line.
<!--quoteo(post=1747394:date=Jan 14 2010, 10:35 PM:name=SentrySteve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SentrySteve @ Jan 14 2010, 10:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1747394"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't see where the actual skill would come in here.
...
I guess my biggest problem is that this ability is to help "aliens close the gap" but closing the gap is one of the most skillful parts of playing as an alien. Distance is some of the aliens weakness and a good player was able to close the gap through their own abilities. This sounds like the game is doing it for the player, thereby making the process devoid of any skill.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Zeal isn't some magical portal that sucks the skulk into the marine - you still have to figure out how to get from where you are to your target, the only thing that changes is you now have the option of speed vs. predictability. As it was already commented in the thread, you can still choose to strafe, climb up a wall, jump up and down in order to avoid fire; however skilled players will learn when to do this vs. when to use Zeal, or even to use evasive maneuvers <i>while</i> maintaining Zeal.
<!--quoteo(post=1747402:date=Jan 15 2010, 01:32 AM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Jan 15 2010, 01:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1747402"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I also mentioned a method of map movement. Being dependand on exposure as a skulk is going to give you 10 seconds of movement per lifetime at max, most often it's more like 3 seconds.
The point was that skulk lives or dies based on what it does before becoming exposed to the enemy detection. Zeal completely misses a huge part of skulk gameplay and because of that it doesn't make a good substitute.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is and always will be inevitable; all of bhop, zeal, leap, and celerity makes you exposed - you're always going to face exposure while engaging the target. And 3 seconds is about the same time bhop would buy in an engagement.
Your latter point: the only thing conferred pre-exposure to a skulk by bhop was speed (not to mention sound giveaway), so whether you spend 5 seconds achieving this speed beforehand (bhop), or you achieve it on sight (zeal) doesn't matter - you're still going to have the exact same speed going into the engagement with either two systems; in fact, the advantage is with Zeal since you neither a) require to "build up a hop" or b) give away your position by sound.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I can't see how bhop limits movement and zeal doesn't. Anyway, the main point is that bhop leaves mouse free to control the air curve, which allows <b>precision that can't be achieved with keyboard only</b>. That makes zeal a bad substitute once again.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Can you strafe freely while bhopping? Can you jump whenever you please or look wherever you please? If you're doing it properly it means you are moving in a very constricted figure-eight-like motion. Zeal allows any form of movement, as long as sight is maintained. But again this is reducing to bhop is X, Zeal isn't X, therefore Zeal is bad. That's not what this is about.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No idea how you play aliens, but I can't see any lifeform tracking marines intensively. Anyway, you're both relying on tracking as a skill element and still claiming it doesn't have the focus in it. If aliens are going to have twitch skill, it's going to be based on the tracking on your theory. I can see the skill in picking targets, but once again mechanical skill is an essential part of bhop, a substitute should account it.
By all means call it a feature, but please don't call it a substitute.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Replacing the "mechanics" you speak of means introducing finger gymnastics - I'm not opposed, but as I understand it that was the reason we were getting away from bhop in the first place. Tracking does a good job of making it skillful while intuitive. But here's something anyways:
<!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Zeal: <!--coloro:orange--><span style="color:orange"><!--/coloro-->Momentum<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
Zeal momentum is maintained while focusing on a target and minimizing head movement.
What this means is the less you move your head while in Zeal, the quicker and longer you will maintain maximum speed.
How does this introduce "mechanics"?
If a target changes position, instead of refocusing on the target by adjusting your aim (which will cause a slight loss of Z-momentum, if moved more than X deg.), the skilled player will seek to compensate this movement by <b>strafing</b> instead. Thus if the target moves to the right, strafing to the right to re-acquire the target will achieve better Zeal momentum than had the player turned to the right.
I am neutral against this addition, I think the original Zeal is fine without it and more intuitive; however for those looking for a "mechanic" skill that involves movement keys, the option is there to consider.
In my experience, climbing walls properly in NS, as opposed to AvP2 which uses a 'climb wall' key, requires you to actually be looking at the wall or whatever you're climbing on - which would make it kind of difficult to keep aiming at a marine.
You can move (horizontally) in an arbitrary smooth path while bunnyhopping as long as the path's curvature does not exceed some large value.
With zeal, you're restricted to motion along the line between you and your target, orthogonal to it, or at a 45° angle (granted, the path no longer needs to be smooth).
I see everyone contributing to and critiquing the idea, not just saying it "sucks". perhaps you should try that.
<!--quoteo(post=1747453:date=Jan 15 2010, 01:16 PM:name=barbarossa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (barbarossa @ Jan 15 2010, 01:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1747453"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Another way you could balance this is by making the skulk significantly louder while... zealing, for lack of better word.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It had considered this early on, but realized it would require the inclusion of a "disable" key; otherwise players will be forced to look away from the target if they want to bypass Zeal and achieve stealth...
<!--quoteo(post=1747469:date=Jan 15 2010, 03:01 PM:name=a_civilian)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (a_civilian @ Jan 15 2010, 03:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1747469"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You can move (horizontally) in an arbitrary smooth path while bunnyhopping as long as the path's curvature does not exceed some large value.
With zeal, you're restricted to motion along the line between you and your target, orthogonal to it, or at a 45° angle (granted, the path no longer needs to be smooth).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
With bhop, if your target is in some direction other than your current arc, then you have to wait half a cycle before switching directions, otherwise you lose momentum. Also that's only 1 degree of movement freedom, which is hardly "free" at that. Zeal grants three degrees of freedom: horizontal, vertical, and depth; granted you lose aiming freedom, but it is no worse than that of bhop, and add to that you gain in movement freedom thrice.
That's not true... You can change direction as often as it pleases you with no loss.
<!--quoteo(post=1747480:date=Jan 15 2010, 06:10 PM:name=R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e @ Jan 15 2010, 06:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1747480"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also that's only 1 degree of movement freedom, which is hardly "free" at that. Zeal grants three degrees of freedom: horizontal, vertical, and depth; granted you lose aiming freedom, but it is no worse than that of bhop, and add to that you gain in movement freedom thrice.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bunnyhopping may offer only one degree of freedom, but this degree of freedom is continuous. Zeal would offer only discrete degrees of freedom due to the reliance on keyboard control.
Incorrect. If a target is 90deg to your left you cannot sharply turn 90deg left mid-bunny hop, you have to "curve" left, slowly smoothing out your arc from 0-90 degrees.
here is an arc: <a href="http://hldj.org/ns/images/bhop.gif" target="_blank">http://hldj.org/ns/images/bhop.gif</a>
here is an engagement: <a href="http://hldj.org/ns/images/bhop_target.gif" target="_blank">http://hldj.org/ns/images/bhop_target.gif</a>
Changing direction "whenever you please" results in momentum loss (left), following through on the arc, although an in-direct approach, conserves momentum (right). The latter is what constitutes a good bunnyhop.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bunnyhopping may offer only one degree of freedom, but this degree of freedom is continuous. Zeal would offer only discrete degrees of freedom due to the reliance on keyboard control.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As explained above, the one degree isn't of total freedom. Though zeal may offer limited to discrete freedom, this freedom is three times that of bunnyhopping. But again, we're just listing wrote differences.
The goal is to weigh the <i>sum</i> of all differences (good and bad) to determine if Zeal may work as a substitute for bunnyhopping (and not necessarily a feature-for-feature replacement). And if not, to then judge it on it's own merits as an independent movement modifier/upgrade.
here is an arc: <a href="http://hldj.org/ns/images/bhop.gif" target="_blank">http://hldj.org/ns/images/bhop.gif</a>
here is an engagement: <a href="http://hldj.org/ns/images/bhop_target.gif" target="_blank">http://hldj.org/ns/images/bhop_target.gif</a>
Changing direction "whenever you please" results in momentum loss (left), following through on the arc, although an in-direct approach, conserves momentum (right). The latter is what constitutes a good bunnyhop.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are talking about something else now. It's true that the path has to be smooth (with sufficiently small curvature) and I already stated that. But you can switch the direction of curvature as often as you want.
You originally said "you have to wait half a cycle before switching directions". You never have to wait before switching directions. Again, you can follow an arbitrary smooth path (as long as its curvature does not exceed some large value).
Also, in the situation of your second image it's better to just break the bunnyhop and carry out a glidejump to start a bunnyhop in a new direction. Glidejumping is one of the most important bunnyhop skills actually and is probably worth mentioning for this discussion - it allows you to gain up to 75% of the maximum speed gain of bunnyhopping (~90% of the maximum speed) almost instantly. Naturally, that increases movement freedom a great deal.
No, I estimate where he's pointing and dodge as unpredictable as possible, often resulting in the marine bouncing like a nutjob as I'm between his legs.