7.1 / spatialisation and NS
Tgaud
Join Date: 2009-05-01 Member: 67323Members
Join Date: 2009-05-01 Member: 67323Members
I want to change my headset and i have the choice between
7.1 headset (with a lot of little separate speakers for each ears)
and
A very good stereo headset.
I wanted to know what will be the best to choose ?
because it would be very helpfull to have a 7.1 spatialisation to detect very precisely a skulk leaping at your face from behind..
But if the game doesn't calculate this sound information and send it to the headset it will be useless.
So i dont know what is best.
I'm very ignorant about videogames sounds systems, spatialisation in games, and differents things like EAX etc
I dont know what technology are used nowadays and if i have to choose between different "sound" option in the game, i am a little lost.
So what about NS2 ?
I think that sound spatialisation will be really important in this game..
7.1 headset (with a lot of little separate speakers for each ears)
and
A very good stereo headset.
I wanted to know what will be the best to choose ?
because it would be very helpfull to have a 7.1 spatialisation to detect very precisely a skulk leaping at your face from behind..
But if the game doesn't calculate this sound information and send it to the headset it will be useless.
So i dont know what is best.
I'm very ignorant about videogames sounds systems, spatialisation in games, and differents things like EAX etc
I dont know what technology are used nowadays and if i have to choose between different "sound" option in the game, i am a little lost.
So what about NS2 ?
I think that sound spatialisation will be really important in this game..
Comments
So why choose a stereo if i can get a good spatialisation ?
(knowing where the skulk attack from is more useful than listening a better hmg sound or not, dont you think ?)
So why choose a stereo if i can get a good spatialisation ?
(knowing where the skulk attack from is more useful than listening a better hmg sound or not, dont you think ?)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It doesn't work, they use all sorts of really bad tricks to try to fake it but it never works. If you are really interested, get a stereo pair and re-route the multichannel output of your computer back into a low latency IR setup and get real surround from your headphones. Anything short of it is really bad, its just a gimmick.
Anyway, go for the good stereo headphones.
read first before making stuff up
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haas_effect" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haas_effect</a>
That's not true. The brain can interpret patterns caused by the way the sound is scattered off the outer ear (and other appendages) and this is one of its tools for localizing sound. See, for example, <a href="http://www.aip.org/pt/nov99/locsound.html" target="_blank">http://www.aip.org/pt/nov99/locsound.html</a>.
(In principle you should be able to easily reproduce these cues in stereo headphones, but the problem is that different people have different outer ears, and their brains are adapted to localizing sound using their set of ears.)
So why choose a stereo if i can get a good spatialisation ?
(knowing where the skulk attack from is more useful than listening a better hmg sound or not, dont you think ?)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
two words: credible source
<!--quoteo(post=1747002:date=Jan 12 2010, 04:38 PM:name=CyberMantis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CyberMantis @ Jan 12 2010, 04:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1747002"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It doesn't work, they use all sorts of really bad tricks to try to fake it but it never works. If you are really interested, get a stereo pair and re-route the multichannel output of your computer back into a low latency IR setup and get real surround from your headphones. Anything short of it is really bad, its just a gimmick.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
no matter how many times I read this, it doesn't make sense. If he has a stereo headset, where exactly is he going to re-route the other 5 channels and how is that going to help anyways?
no matter how many times I read this, it doesn't make sense. If he has a stereo headset, where exactly is he going to re-route the other 5 channels and how is that going to help anyways?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have listed the procedure, everything you need to know is stated. I am not being cryptic here.
Maybe I'm just dense, but it read like an underpants gnomes scheme:
1) get a pair of stereo headphones
2) connect channels 3-7.1 to a low latency setup... of what? headphones, speakers, mixer?
3) ???
3) get real surround from stereo headphones (!?)
Can you elaborate on what sort of IR setup you refer to? Or how real surround sound is achieved through stereo headphones?
theres this techniquie of making a mold of your head and ears and placing mics in there to record. when u listen back to a recording made this way apparently its uncanny and sounds apear behind u ubove u ect, the headfones are stereo tho. but a second person wouldent get the same effect.
(In principle you should be able to easily reproduce these cues in stereo headphones, but the problem is that different people have different outer ears, and their brains are adapted to localizing sound using their set of ears.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh, I was wrong. Thanks for the link!
theres this techniquie of making a mold of your head and ears and placing mics in there to record. when u listen back to a recording made this way apparently its uncanny and sounds apear behind u ubove u ect, the headfones are stereo tho. but a second person wouldent get the same effect.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think you're referring to <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binaural_recording" target="_blank">Binaural</a> and <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holophonics" target="_blank">Holophonic</a> recordings, though the effects are still readily tangible. Just pop the terms into a search engine and check out some of the clips, the results can be quite creepy.
7.1 headset (with a lot of little separate speakers for each ears)
and
A very good stereo headset.
I wanted to know what will be the best to choose ?
because it would be very helpfull to have a 7.1 spatialisation to detect very precisely a skulk leaping at your face from behind..
But if the game doesn't calculate this sound information and send it to the headset it will be useless.
So i dont know what is best.
I'm very ignorant about videogames sounds systems, spatialisation in games, and differents things like EAX etc
I dont know what technology are used nowadays and if i have to choose between different "sound" option in the game, i am a little lost.
So what about NS2 ?
I think that sound spatialisation will be really important in this game..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wait wait wait.... The game isn't even out yet... isn't even in any kinda beta.... and you want to know what the best headset would be? How the hell would we know?! We can only guess, and even then it goes down to personal preference. To me, I say buy the cheapest pair that will last for a while and spend the rest of the money on other games, food, or maybe a lap dance. Either way, it's better than going out and buying the best headset for the best game, that isn't even out yet, and is a wasting that money.
If you can localize the action with only two speakers ?
It make no sense.
How with a left/right headphone you can both localize :
_left right action (that seems ok)
_Front/behind action (some people talk of different "volume" system, to distinguish both... hmm not convinced)
_Top/Bottom action ????? No one speaking about that. How can i know that the skulk coming on me from behind, is on the air or on the ground with a ###### dump stereo headset (where only two information are transmitted LEFT and RIGht).
Edit: and i dont understand why the topic has been put here...
it's not an idea neither a suggestion, and it's speaking of NS sound like the others topic "ns graphic" and "ns physic".
How can your left speaker tell your ear that the sound come from
Top
Bottom
Behind
Bottom-Behind
Front Top
etc.
It's just a dumb speaker, all he can say to your ear is "hey there is a sound on my side !!"
After, with some sound traitement and volume you can distinguish sound difference so you think it's front/behind
But what about the Top/bottom thing ?
It's like saying how can you tell the position of some object when all you have is a dumb monitor/eyes?
However it doesn't mean you can just "spatialize" stuff. A given spatialization represents information for an exact location of your head. In order for that to work in-game you would need to record every sound in 3D in every possible location it could occur or use an algorithm. Obviously the former is impossible, and if the latter were feesible/ it would have already been available in OpenAL or DirectX.
For example, to a skulk to the marine
The skulk position have x y z position, and the marines does too.
So you just have to take three number in consideration to have effective 3d sound..
(i'm not talking about reverberation here) .
That's why I said it's up to the game audio engine to emulate the sounds depending on location of sound source. Computers are dumb too, software might be smart.
It's feasible (you don't have to simulate everything exactly); the problem is that it would only work for some people because people have differently shaped ears.
And you're basing that on what?... different ear shape isn't the problem - they can provide options for selecting that. The problem is there's no way you're going to model the reflections off the intricate folds of an ear, wall, materials, etc. in real-time. If I am wrong about this, you need only point me to an implementation. The best sound effects we have to date are doppler, occlusion, and a handful of others found in DirectSound or EAX, but none of which are capable of generating binaural 3D sound.
The fact that you don't need to do all the modeling in real time. You can reduce all of that information to a single (complex) function of frequency and angle, which relates the output amplitude and phase to the input amplitude and phase. See, for example, <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatomical_transfer_function" target="_blank">Anatomical transfer function</a> or the article I linked earlier.
Edit: also,
<!--quoteo(post=1747106:date=Jan 13 2010, 08:48 AM:name=R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e @ Jan 13 2010, 08:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1747106"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->different ear shape isn't the problem - they can provide options for selecting that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The space of complex functions of (frequency, azimuth, inclination) is quite large. I don't know how much of it humans occupy, but I suspect it's much more than you could realistically provide options to select (keep in mind you'd need to select such an option from a continuum, and probably a very high-dimensional one).
The space of complex functions of (frequency, azimuth, inclination) is quite large. I don't know how much of it humans occupy, but I suspect it's much more than you could realistically provide options to select (keep in mind you'd need to select such an option from a continuum, and probably a very high-dimensional one).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm aware of the article and the maths behind it, and although I can agree with what you're saying, until an implementation is found, common sense prevails. As this is not a new technology, the conclusion is either a) it is not interesting to the gaming industry, or b) it is not feasible to implement in real-time.
Seeing as there is a healthy appetite for sound effects (EAX, DirectX, OpenAL) (a) does not seem likely; so we must conclude (b), unless one is willing to believe that no one has thought of it for gaming until now.
Considering we're at the point of having things like 3D Video and amBX, I'd think the industry would have at least given 3D audio in games a try. I dunno, I'd be interested to see what Max has to say on this.