Spark Editor Q&A thread
Crispy
Jaded GD Join Date: 2004-08-22 Member: 30793Members, Constellation
Jaded GD Join Date: 2004-08-22 Member: 30793Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">You ask a question, we provide the answers</div>First off I'd like to express my continued bewilderment as to why we don't have a separate Spark editor forum. I don't really want to go on about it, but the simple comparison is to look at this:
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=SF&f=4&st=0&changefilters=1" target="_blank">NS Mapping forum</a> vs <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showforum=92" target="_blank">NS2 General Discussion forum (temp home of NS2 mapping)</a> & <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/wiki/index.php/Natural_Selection_2_Mapping" target="_blank">NS2 Mapping Wiki section</a>
I'd love to be able to give each question its own thread, perhaps with a well-moderated 'common questions' thread or separate areas for questions (see the NS2MF above), but I know that realistically separate threads in this forum would make it even more spammy, and this is the best/only way we can do this for the moment. /shrug
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->The Format<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
For every question you ask give it a number, following on from the last number used. When people have an answer, they precede it with the corresponding number, or just quote the complete question including its number. I'll start.
1. Does anyone know how to delete unused vertices/points if you realise you don't need them?
2. Does leaving superfluous lines have any hit on a level's optimisation? (I.e. do lines split up geometry unnecessarily if left in or does this have no effect on optimisation?)
3. Where can I check and edit the editor shortcuts?
4. Is there an official or well-populated/frequented Steam Group for NS2 Mappers? (I'd prefer not to use IRC)
5. Is there any support or need in Spark to assign certain geometry to a 'func_detail' equivalent? Can I be safe in the knowledge that any of my geometry is not needlessly 'breaking up' faces and creating more work for either the editor or the end-user's machine? E.g. if I were to make a wall with vertical 'fins' sticking out (a la generic cargo bay motif), is there a 'best practise' for how this should be achieved?
6. Are there any "dos & don'ts" we should be aware of when mapping with the Spark editor? (akin to something like the prolific 'beware the Carve tool' in Hammer)
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=SF&f=4&st=0&changefilters=1" target="_blank">NS Mapping forum</a> vs <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showforum=92" target="_blank">NS2 General Discussion forum (temp home of NS2 mapping)</a> & <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/wiki/index.php/Natural_Selection_2_Mapping" target="_blank">NS2 Mapping Wiki section</a>
I'd love to be able to give each question its own thread, perhaps with a well-moderated 'common questions' thread or separate areas for questions (see the NS2MF above), but I know that realistically separate threads in this forum would make it even more spammy, and this is the best/only way we can do this for the moment. /shrug
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->The Format<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
For every question you ask give it a number, following on from the last number used. When people have an answer, they precede it with the corresponding number, or just quote the complete question including its number. I'll start.
1. Does anyone know how to delete unused vertices/points if you realise you don't need them?
2. Does leaving superfluous lines have any hit on a level's optimisation? (I.e. do lines split up geometry unnecessarily if left in or does this have no effect on optimisation?)
3. Where can I check and edit the editor shortcuts?
4. Is there an official or well-populated/frequented Steam Group for NS2 Mappers? (I'd prefer not to use IRC)
5. Is there any support or need in Spark to assign certain geometry to a 'func_detail' equivalent? Can I be safe in the knowledge that any of my geometry is not needlessly 'breaking up' faces and creating more work for either the editor or the end-user's machine? E.g. if I were to make a wall with vertical 'fins' sticking out (a la generic cargo bay motif), is there a 'best practise' for how this should be achieved?
6. Are there any "dos & don'ts" we should be aware of when mapping with the Spark editor? (akin to something like the prolific 'beware the Carve tool' in Hammer)
Comments
The best way so far is to remember which faces you made apart from an object. If you take a box want only 3 out of the 6 faces to make a corner, the best way is to delete vertexes in order to delete the faces and edges along. In the case that you start building your level and create planes apart from each others, when you want to delete a face and remove the vertexes and edges that goes with it, you must take the face and move it away from the geometry. There you can select it all and delete it.
<!--quoteo(post=1745486:date=Jan 2 2010, 04:48 PM:name=Crispy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Crispy @ Jan 2 2010, 04:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745486"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2. Does leaving superfluous lines have any hit on a level's optimisation? (I.e. do lines split up geometry unnecessarily if left in or does this have no effect on optimisation?)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Adding a "line" (edge) in between a face permenantly add 2 polygons in geometry. It is a best practice to certainly keep the polygons as low as possible in a mesh. When you delete the edge while keeping the faces (joining the 2 faces together) there will be still twice as much polygons. You can see that by enabling triangulation in the viewport options.
<!--quoteo(post=1745486:date=Jan 2 2010, 04:48 PM:name=Crispy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Crispy @ Jan 2 2010, 04:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745486"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->3. Where can I check and edit the editor shortcuts?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Tools > Settings > Key Bindings
<!--quoteo(post=1745486:date=Jan 2 2010, 04:48 PM:name=Crispy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Crispy @ Jan 2 2010, 04:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745486"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->6. Are there any "dos & don'ts" we should be aware of when mapping with the Spark editor? (akin to something like the prolific 'beware the Carve tool' in Hammer)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A lot of things are changing through out the updates that happens almost every week. But one good practice I can think of right now that applies specifically to NS mapping is that whenever you build something, sometimes take a look at your room from above to see the commander's view. You need a good view from above in this game so, you'll want to delete some faces or move some objects. You might consider building vents along the walls instead of over a room. Think that there is going to be an alien commander too.
<!--quoteo(post=1745486:date=Jan 3 2010, 12:48 AM:name=Crispy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Crispy @ Jan 3 2010, 12:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745486"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1. Does anyone know how to delete unused vertices/points if you realise you don't need them?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
By hand. Apparently those won't affect the map in any way.
<!--quoteo(post=1745486:date=Jan 3 2010, 12:48 AM:name=Crispy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Crispy @ Jan 3 2010, 12:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745486"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2. Does leaving superfluous lines have any hit on a level's optimisation? (I.e. do lines split up geometry unnecessarily if left in or does this have no effect on optimisation?)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't see this having anything other than absolutely abysmal effect on anything. If you're doing a couple thousand tessellations or more, that's when you should start worrying... Less about optimisation and more about what the hell you're doing.
<!--quoteo(post=1745486:date=Jan 3 2010, 12:48 AM:name=Crispy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Crispy @ Jan 3 2010, 12:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745486"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->3. Where can I check and edit the editor shortcuts?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Tools > Settings > Key Bindings
<!--quoteo(post=1745486:date=Jan 3 2010, 12:48 AM:name=Crispy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Crispy @ Jan 3 2010, 12:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745486"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->5. Is there any support or need in Spark to assign certain geometry to a 'func_detail' equivalent? Can I be safe in the knowledge that any of my geometry is not needlessly 'breaking up' faces and creating more work for either the editor or the end-user's machine? E.g. if I were to make a wall with vertical 'fins' sticking out (a la generic cargo bay motif), is there a 'best practise' for how this should be achieved?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To the best of my knowledge, there'll be only two prop types: prop_static (what we have now) and prop_physics (coming sometime). Spark should have a much more robust and flexible portal system than Source, so such round-about optimisations don't sound necessary.
<!--quoteo(post=1745486:date=Jan 3 2010, 12:48 AM:name=Crispy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Crispy @ Jan 3 2010, 12:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745486"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->6. Are there any "dos & don'ts" we should be aware of when mapping with the Spark editor? (akin to something like the prolific 'beware the Carve tool' in Hammer)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Texture scaling tends to remain screwed even if you undo a bad action. But this seems to be more of a bug with the alpha than anything big.
7. Sometimes I can't seem to be able to delete vertices. I'll delete an edge and then if I look really hard (usually by turning the camera behind the face) I can still see the vertices that joined the edge are still there. When I try to select and delete either one of them, it deletes the entire face. Is this a bug or is there a more reliable way of selecting vertices? Is there perhaps a way to merge faces into a single quad (and automatically delete the vertices and edge)?
Never saw that happen. What would you do to end up with this?
2. Draw a horizontal edge that goes all the way round the top of the room (dividing the room's vertical faces into two along the horizontal)
3. Select a wall of the room and extrude the upper face outwards slightly
4. Now delete the other 3 edges you created with the line tool
5. Observe you can delete the edges, but if you check the backfaces for where the edges connected, the vertices are still present
6. Attempt to delete one (or a corresponding pair) of these vertices
7. Observe the entire face is deleted
(It was at step 4 I realised I didn't really want to extrude outwards on all sides, so I wanted to get rid of the edges.)
I'm guessing it's a bug in that case.
2. Draw a horizontal edge that goes all the way round the top of the room (dividing the room's vertical faces into two along the horizontal)
3. Select a wall of the room and extrude the upper face outwards slightly
4. Now delete the other 3 edges you created with the line tool
5. Observe you can delete the edges, but if you check the backfaces for where the edges connected, the vertices are still present
6. Attempt to delete one (or a corresponding pair) of these vertices
7. Observe the entire face is deleted
(It was at step 4 I realised I didn't really want to extrude outwards on all sides, so I wanted to get rid of the edges.)
I'm guessing it's a bug in that case.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i lose you at step 4. are you talking about the horizontal edges you drew in step 2? if so, the reason your face is deleted is because the vertices from those horizontal edges break the vertical edges in the corners of the room into 2 edges joined by a common vertice. since an edge needs 2 vertices and you delete a vertice common to both, both edges get deleted and you lose your face.
some screenshots of your steps might help us understand your problem better
<img src="http://home.arcor.de/jim_west/ns2/Unbenannt.JPG" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Do I really need to select at this block all faces, all edges and all Vertics?
And when i do that, the hole floor will be deleted, too.
<img src="http://home.arcor.de/jim_west/ns2/Unbenannt.JPG" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Do I really need to select at this block all faces, all edges and all Vertics?
And when i do that, the hole floor will be deleted, too.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you cant do it easily. in your example, assuming you extruded from the floor up, you would delete the vertices (because deleting vertices removes connected faces and edges) and delete the face on the floor, then recreate the face on the floor.
2. Draw a horizontal edge that goes all the way round the top of the room (dividing the room's vertical faces into two along the horizontal)
3. Select a wall of the room and extrude the upper face outwards slightly
4. Now delete the other 3 edges you created with the line tool
5. Observe you can delete the edges, but if you check the backfaces for where the edges connected, the vertices are still present
6. Attempt to delete one (or a corresponding pair) of these vertices
7. Observe the entire face is deleted<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Impressive. I tried to replicate the steps and Spark keeps crashing on second one.