Tech Rooms -- are the Hives and CC located in the same spot?
edkrst
Join Date: 2009-09-11 Member: 68748Members
Join Date: 2009-09-11 Member: 68748Members
<div class="IPBDescription">or is it technically possible to have both a Hive and CC in a tech roo</div>I'm designing a map, as many of us are, and I need to know something about tech rooms. Does a tech room need to have space for both a CC and a Hive? Do they exist in separate spots in the tech room, or would they exist in the same spot, mutually exclusive?
If yes, doesn't this mean that it is technically possible to have both a Hive and CC in the same tech room (although not practical).
If no, does the hive have to be directly above where the CC would be? Doesn't this present some design difficulties?
And one other question: can every tech room (all 6 on the sample NS2 map) have a Hive or CC?
If yes, doesn't this mean that it is technically possible to have both a Hive and CC in the same tech room (although not practical).
If no, does the hive have to be directly above where the CC would be? Doesn't this present some design difficulties?
And one other question: can every tech room (all 6 on the sample NS2 map) have a Hive or CC?
Comments
(Keep in mind, this is really just speculation, but I think it's safe speculation!)
But why even ask about a CC and a Hive in the same room? I can't even imagine a scripted game mode where that would be useful.
Also, you really shouldn't be starting on a map proper just yet. The editor can barely support it, and we don't even have the mapping guidelines yet. At least wait for that doc and basic gameplay entities.
Marine + Alien vs. Marine + Alien
Wouldn't that be fun?
Wouldn't that be fun?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That would be ###### dope.
I don't understand why everyone is saying this. We have plenty of information to work from. And i'm not using Spark at all--for me, it all gets planned on paper first. Getting this map done in the next 6 months or so (my guess for how much longer NS2 has 'till it's done) is going to be really difficult. I'm looking for any kind of head-start I can get.
Less corridors, bigger rooms, "theme" rooms, and the "power grid" design--that's what i'm working from. Plus, the NS mapping guidelines are still a pretty good bet in lieu of NS2 guidelines. For example, i'm pretty certain the rule that "marines shouldn't have a clear line of sight to the hive from other rooms" is going to stay in NS2.
For NS mapping guidelines: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns/static/Mapping_Guidelines.html" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns/static/Map...Guidelines.html</a>
Wouldn't that be fun?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm thinking Marine & Alien vs Zombie Marine & Zombie Aliens. ;D
vs Zombie Shark & Zombie Grizzly Bear & Zombie Dolphin & Zombie Penguin & Zombie Corcodile/Alligator & Zombie Tiger.
Nanites created them, Neutral Zoological Creep Race (A.I. Controlled).
=D
I'm going to call you out on this one. I think in the official NS2 gameplay there will be moments, when you will see a hive and a Command "Center" (yes they changed the name) in the same tech point room. Aliens need to ambush a tech point somehow. Dropping a ninja hive would benefit the aliens for suprising the marines and taking out that tech point, currently like how it is in NS as it is already. Of course we don't have any details about Movement Chambers being in NS2, but I think the tunneling system, or even just using the hive to movement to a hive going up is how it will all work out. Possibly something to do with the dynamic infestation? Either way, I think we will see moments where you will see a hive being put up in a tech point room while that tech point room is occupied by the Marines. It's just a balance of fitting that huge hive in the room, while theres a CC. I think that was what that one twitter post was about and I think people were getting confused about it.
Good point, I totally forgot about hive rushes (assuming they're still in the game).
If the one room can be both Hive and CC, then it is possible for the game to do randomised spawns, so one game the marines start in point A and aliens point B, but the next game they start switched!
This would be really interesting and fun, and increase the replayability of each map!
keeping the random stuff in opens the door for some realy interesting things but should still be definable by the mapper, we dont want to have the same basic layout over and over again after all.
but a randomized marine spawn sounds pretty interesting for a twist.
But why even ask about a CC and a Hive in the same room? I can't even imagine a scripted game mode where that would be useful.
Also, you really shouldn't be starting on a map proper just yet. The editor can barely support it, and we don't even have the mapping guidelines yet. At least wait for that doc and basic gameplay entities.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1742346:date=Dec 4 2009, 12:41 AM:name=iopred)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(iopred @ Dec 4 2009, 12:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1742346"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is a valid question!
If the one room can be both Hive and CC, then it is possible for the game to do randomised spawns, so one game the marines start in point A and aliens point B, but the next game they start switched!
This would be really interesting and fun, and increase the replayability of each map!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The old NS map guidelines are pretty much pointless: this little rant is pretty much the new mapping guidelines. Based on the knowledge you can gain from <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/news/2009/4/marine_power_grid_design" target="_blank">this</a> and the Entities that are in Spark already you can guess how everything will work out. You will build your maps around 6 main room, your tech point rooms, then place the resource nodes between them (use <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/images/news/powergrid/NS2_powergrid_layout_6x8_6.jpg" target="_blank">this image</a> as a guide). This will give you the basic set up of your map.
The Tech Point are basically Marine Start and Hive Rooms combined.
"One more thing - in NS2 there are no hive rooms per se and the marines can't build their Command Stations anywhere. Both teams must build their Hives or Command Stations at special points on the map called "tech points". Building here lets the team have the ability to have another commander, and also is needed for "teching up" to tier 2 or tier 3." - Charlie on Marine "Power Grid" design
When you build your map in Spark, you will find a Tech_Point Entity and a Command_Station Entity, they currently look exactly the same (probably because they work together), there is currently no visible Hive entity, although there is a hive in the Entity list.
"Struggling with the size of the hive which affects the number of tech points which affects the "power grid" (http://bit.ly/52xuRC)." - Based on that tweet I would say that UW are hoping to release the Hive with the next Spark update, or soon after that. And this is probably why there is no visible hive entity.
And based on all this knowledge I would say, Tech_Point entities are placed in each Tech Point Room, and connected to a Hive and an area where Command Stations can be placed. These will all be put in by the mapper, all in the same room/area. When the game is played, a player will have to go into a Tech Point Room and start to build their Hive/CS. I assume, that when the Tech_Point Entity is functioning in Spark it will have details (such as who owns the TP Room at the start of the game and what other items are effected by the Tech_Point being taken by the other team, etc), I imagine it will work much like the Capture Points in TF2: <a href="http://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/TF2/Creating_a_Capture_Point" target="_blank">see this for details</a>.
Unlike TF2 more cool stuff will happen when you take a point, and it will probably take longer and involve more teamwork than TF2 did. Someone will have to build something, and others will have to protect them. When a hive is built DI will start and lights may or may not turn off/flicker. I guess this will be up to the mapper.
You should think of ever TP as a Hive room and a Marine Start, and allow space for players to spawn in. The distance between RN/TP (Res Nodes/Tech Points) and other RN/TP should be the same, except where the <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/news/2009/4/marine_power_grid_design" target="_blank">Power Grid Map</a> states that a TP and a RN can be on the same point.
We will have to wait and see if the Tech_Point entity allows for both a Marine CS and a Hive to be built at the same TP, this maybe why there is six TP as this would mean 3 CS and 3 Hives, at one point in the game.
Also, we don't really know if any of the Tech_Point entities will be set to be owned by a team at the start (something the mapper would do if it was a Capture Point in TF2) or if every game will have a slightly different spawn location... Think about how multiplayer maps work in RTS like Dawn of War and Red Alert to get the idea of how that would work. For those of you who haven't played them, let me explain: each multiplayer map has a mini map with points marked out on it, this is before the game starts, so you know that the other player will be at one of these points, but the game picks the start point. So one game you might be right next to each other, and the next you may have to go over the whole map to get to the other team. This way also allows multiple teams, and is the logical route for NS2, as it means the same map can be played over and over, each time the game will be different and players will start in different points.
For this reason you should make sure that each TP has a logical entry point for Marines and Kharaa. So players don't end up spawning in a nicely made hive room and thinking, "Hey! Aren't I a Marine?" or spawning in a Landing pad with an out of place Hive and thinking "Rawww... Hiss... Rawww!"... It's not hard to get around these new issues, but just placing in a door/ladder that looks like it leads up to somewhere nice and bright in rooms that would be Hive Rooms, and open cages/boxes/vents that lead to places that aren't very nice/dark/horrible for what would be an old MS style rooms. DI will hopefully take care of the rest.
This also means that we probably won’t have as many long map background stories to go with the maps, because players won’t start in the same place every time. So they can’t spawn in the area where the maps background story ends... It just means every maps background will be slightly more open.
I think that is pretty much the mapping guidelines so far... for sizes of things just look at props and the teaser video of the Onos, you should be able to work it out :P
But, is it possible to specify a tech point as [not alien start] (or [not marine start])? (So in the game you could theoretically still advance into it as aliens (or marines), but you'd never start there). Similarly, could you have a tech point that was [not alien start AND not marine start]? (So in the game you would advance into it as either team, but you'd never start there). And finally, is it possible to specify a single TP on either side of the map as [marine start] or [alien start], so you'd have a more classic gameplay, with a more consistent early game; so it's different to the randomised spawns thing, but uses the same elements.
Ok, answered.
Also, I know they have said they want marines always to be working in the same direction, always moving from a similar spot (south central) going north into the rest of the map. This is why there is both a tech entity and a command center entity... to designate that standard start location. I suspect the Hive entity is for a similar purpose, to designate the possible starting hive locations.
I also suspect there will be a server variable that allows this to be unlocked and for randomized (non-standard) start locations for both.
If there isn't it wouldn't be hard to make a very simple lua mod app to do this... provided it didn't mess with things we don't yet know about how tech works.