<!--quoteo(post=1743254:date=Dec 10 2009, 01:29 PM:name=Amran)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Amran @ Dec 10 2009, 01:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1743254"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Huzzah! Now that registrations are finally functional again, here's my contribution. Looking forward to being able to play with the effects that atmospheric lights might pose as well.
<img src="http://www.polybemani.net/uploader/userfiles/3/NS2Test8.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You wouldn't happen to be a professional level designer, would you?
<!--quoteo(post=1743254:date=Dec 10 2009, 10:29 AM:name=Amran)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Amran @ Dec 10 2009, 10:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1743254"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Huzzah! Now that registrations are finally functional again, here's my contribution. Looking forward to being able to play with the effects that atmospheric lights might pose as well.
The geo seems very intersting. The lightning need more work though. Most of the lights are white and the picture look entirely brown. And you should avoid having dozens of light, it make the picture flat and a bit unreadable. Try to have one big light to do a hierarchy.
Also, even if the fan with sunray passing through it is looking good, it's quite dumb imho. Who is the architect who designed a room full of electronic stuff and makde a hole in the roof to bring fresh air and... cold rain. :)
Ps : I dont know why, but this room reminds me quake2
<!--quoteo(post=1743267:date=Dec 10 2009, 02:41 PM:name=Genova)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Genova @ Dec 10 2009, 02:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1743267"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->... need more work though ... try to ... quite dumb imho ...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It generally helps if you explain the reasons for the any criticism, otherwise anyone is in full right to dismiss it if not get offended by it: unsubstantiated opinion is a big no-no when you're going the route of logic. Per se, explain why exactly it's bad for the outdoor-lit room to look brown, or why one should do a light hierarchy.
(The irony, criticising the criticism. Ahem.)
I think the lighting in that shot is exceptional: it makes the entire level very visible, has enough uniformity so as not to overly confuse the eye, yet enough contrast spots to make it both interesting and easy to orient in.
Lol no one seems to care about my big boring concrete room so far but oh well ill keep posting. Made some big changes to the rooms itself now pretty much everything is textured. (Yes most of it is concrete) BUT! I have found something amazing, put a walkway texture ontop of a concrete texture and you get reinforced concrete!
What you guys think keep or bin?
First difference in editer <a href="http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/2576/stationgrabnonconclight.jpg" target="_blank">http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/2576/st...onconclight.jpg</a> <a href="http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/5571/stationgrabconcnonlight.jpg" target="_blank">http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/5571/st...oncnonlight.jpg</a>
Then with lighting effects <a href="http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/999/stationgrabnonconcnolig.jpg" target="_blank">http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/999/sta...onconcnolig.jpg</a> <a href="http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/8563/stationgrabconclight.jpg" target="_blank">http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/8563/st...abconclight.jpg</a>
I like it because it picks up light a little better than the concrete and thus gives some definition to the massive surface instead of just BOOORING. + Makes more sence to have reinforced concrete because it is more support for the massive room without many supports.
<!--quoteo(post=1743279:date=Dec 10 2009, 01:30 PM:name=Draco_2k)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Draco_2k @ Dec 10 2009, 01:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1743279"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It generally helps if you explain the reasons for the any criticism, otherwise anyone is in full right to dismiss it if not get offended by it: unsubstantiated opinion is a big no-no when you're going the route of logic. Per se, explain why exactly it's bad for the outdoor-lit room to look brown, or why one should do a light hierarchy.
(The irony, criticising the criticism. Ahem.)
I think the lighting in that shot is exceptional: it makes the entire level very visible, has enough uniformity so as not to overly confuse the eye, yet enough contrast spots to make it both interesting and easy to orient in.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Didnt meant to be rude, that why i used smileys, and I have the bad habit to summarize my thought, and hope people will think about it and try to find the answer themself (and learn while trying)
And I've explained why vents on ceiling leading to the outside is weird, because of the rain (and also wind, and other bad wheather)
I absolutely have nothing against brown colors, it's just that most of the lights in this scene are white and you expect the room to be lighten as it is (otherwise the light props looks disconnected from the scene)
About the light hierarchy, its just to have a better look and make the scene more readable. When every lights have almost the same brightness, it make the picture a bit flat and less readable, so you try to have a dominant light that will "lead" the lightning. It's especially useful in a 3d environment, where you can get easily get confused with a high detailed architecture and have trouble to orient yourself.
<!--quoteo(post=1743291:date=Dec 10 2009, 03:00 PM:name=Genova)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Genova @ Dec 10 2009, 03:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1743291"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I absolutely have nothing against brown colors, it's just that most of the lights in this scene are white and you expect the room to be lighten as it is (otherwise the light props looks disconnected from the scene)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Currently cant do owt about that no matter what colour light you apply infront of a light prop the prop will as of yet always glow very bright white. Eventually he will be able to change this.
<!--quoteo(post=1743289:date=Dec 10 2009, 05:51 PM:name=PsympleJester)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PsympleJester @ Dec 10 2009, 05:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1743289"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Lol no one seems to care about my big boring concrete room so far but oh well ill keep posting.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No quality of work, bad or good, is guarantee of reply on a message board. So yeah, keep us posted, that's what the thread is for.
...And how the crikey do you put textures "on top" of one another?
<!--quoteo(post=1743291:date=Dec 10 2009, 06:00 PM:name=Genova)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Genova @ Dec 10 2009, 06:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1743291"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Didnt meant to be rude, that why i used smileys, and I have the bad habit to summarize my thought, and hope people will think about it and try to find the answer themself (and learn while trying)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You don't have to try to be rude to be offensive. Hence, the advice.
<!--quoteo(post=1743291:date=Dec 10 2009, 06:00 PM:name=Genova)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Genova @ Dec 10 2009, 06:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1743291"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And I've explained why vents on ceiling leading to the outside is weird, because of the rain (and also wind, and other bad wheather)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Everything's insulated, and the scene is outdoor-lit :p
Otherwise, yep, details like that help a lot (as in, letting the original creator make a better decision). Good job.
<!--quoteo(post=1743296:date=Dec 10 2009, 03:13 PM:name=Draco_2k)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Draco_2k @ Dec 10 2009, 03:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1743296"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No quality of work, bad or good, is guarantee of reply on a message board. So yeah, keep us posted, that's what the thread is for.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I know heh it was a joke. :)
<!--quoteo(post=1743296:date=Dec 10 2009, 03:13 PM:name=Draco_2k)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Draco_2k @ Dec 10 2009, 03:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1743296"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->...And how the crikey do you put textures "on top" of one another?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Duplicate a face and change the texture, if you pick one with a transparent alpha channel you have a double layered texture... Normally havng 2 textures in the EXACT same space would cause them to do awkward things however in the editor they dont if one is transparent in places... I dunno whether they wll in game or not but I cant really test that can i? :P
Anyway its a difficult process to do seen as once you have finnished manipulating your top texture you cant really go back due to always selecting the bottom one and thus you need to either do it all in one go and be happy with it... Or know voo-doo (a long process works but cant be bothered explaining.)
Thank you for the comments Draco, though no, sadly I've not delved into that career path at this point. Have certainly had a lot of good feedback though and just might pursue such things again!
<!--quoteo(post=1743267:date=Dec 10 2009, 04:41 AM:name=Genova)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Genova @ Dec 10 2009, 04:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1743267"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The geo seems very intersting. The lightning need more work though. Most of the lights are white and the picture look entirely brown. And you should avoid having dozens of light, it make the picture flat and a bit unreadable. Try to have one big light to do a hierarchy.
Also, even if the fan with sunray passing through it is looking good, it's quite dumb imho. Who is the architect who designed a room full of electronic stuff and makde a hole in the roof to bring fresh air and... cold rain. :)
Ps : I dont know why, but this room reminds me quake2<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It does seem like it could be an interesting experiment to add more contrast between the brown/yellow light of the outdoors and the actual lights in the interior. I think I may have been aiming for a bit more of a brighter style then average and playing into the idea that there are a fair number of openings to the exterior. Though realistically, some areas might still be able to use more shadow from the natural sources.
And I guess you could say that, or maybe I could just make some crazy claims like a dry climate or having installed shutters for such cases! May benefit from visible indications of such though. :D
I do appreciate the feedback, and it's some good advice to play with!
<!--quoteo(post=1743299:date=Dec 10 2009, 06:20 PM:name=PsympleJester)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PsympleJester @ Dec 10 2009, 06:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1743299"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Duplicate a face and change the texture, if you pick one with a transparent alpha channel you have a double layered texture... Normally havng 2 textures in the EXACT same space would cause them to do awkward things however in the editor they dont if one is transparent in places...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Thanks a bunch.
That's weird, you do normally expect z-fighting in such cases... I think you can move the new face up or down a bit to make sure (and maybe be able to select it at all).
<!--quoteo(post=1743300:date=Dec 10 2009, 06:23 PM:name=Amran)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Amran @ Dec 10 2009, 06:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1743300"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Thank you for the comments Draco, though no, sadly I've not delved into that career path at this point. Have certainly had a lot of good feedback though and just might pursue such things again!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> NS2 team promised to buy out the better maps the community makes for the game, so that may just be about the place to start. Keep it up, you certainly know what you're doing.
<!--quoteo(post=1743304:date=Dec 10 2009, 03:50 PM:name=Bulletcatcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bulletcatcher @ Dec 10 2009, 03:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1743304"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->@ PsympleJester, Your work is really good. The fencing over the concrete wall is actually a great idea, but I'm not sure I like that fencing texture.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Is all lies its crap, I just post it anyway! :D I dunno all the others seem to look out of place.
No worries draco, yes moving forward would work but it would distort when moving position due to perspective and the closer you stood the worse it would distort as you moved. So a skulk on my wall would be like... "Woah, the ######..."
Also look guys! Concrete textures are boring... but look what lots of light sorces do to a big room full of boring concrete (I still have a lot more lights to add too!)
Here is my first try. For some reason, the shadows fade away as soon as you are not very close to the light source, so my big spot lights he ground where it should be occluded by the catwalk.
Of course the light colors in the hallways are placeholder to better see he different exit paths from the room.
keep up the great work guys. especially you new folks! psymple, keep practicing, as long as youre having fun keep it up!
ill have to post some of the stuff ive done. ive been itching to post, but registration has been down so long, and now im at work :(
theres some really awesome work out there, with all the props and stuff, ive seen some really sweet work. being forced to sit on the sidelines and watch this thread grow from but a page or two, i do have some raw commentary.
keep in mind, though everyone is more than welcome to share their opinions, try to also keep in mind, the map maker is an artist, architect and strategist. its perfectly okay to have a room thats "too dark" if it fits your theme, format and strategy. balance is important, but extremes help accent your work (just make sure to be gentle!) Remember, some of the hallways and rooms need more than just props, they need depth. I see a few instances of people putting down props, with which a few adjustments, could add more play depth to rooms and hallways. It might be wise to spend as few polys as you can on props, until we know more about how the engine can handle them. It's really easy to go nuts with lighting and props, but that may seriously hamper the gameplay in the long run. Who cares how good it looks if no one can play it (Crysis *cough cough*.)
Amran, that room transports me back to 2.5d shooter days. great job! i feel as if im looking at a screenshot straight from the Doom movie (which is also an excellent place to get inspiration, Aliens isn't the only series in gritty space.)
Bullet, your work is awesome!
Everyone keep up the awesome work, there are alot of mappers out there I forgot to mention, but everyone has such great material. I mapped from 7th grade to about 12th. After four years, NS2 has inspired me to start mapping again. I'll get some screenies and see what you guys think. I'm a little rusty (and I was never exceptional).
I suppose it's important to keep in mind what the team told us: this isn't an editor yet, it's a just a test run.
So while starting out your NS2 level might sound attractive at the moment, it means you'll be missing out on major features and changes that could have made your job easier or more spectacular, if not risk incompatibility or performance issues. I'm guessing it's thus best to accommodate yourself with the editor and modding in general rather than embarking on a full-scale project head-on (which is sort of true in any field, really).
More specifically, I'm pretty sure we'll eventually have at least... Grouping, layer support for level geometry, prop skins, decals, parenting, movers, scripting, light controllers, atmospheric lighting, fog, particle systems, colour correction, physics, texture tools, in-editor playtesting, official mapping guidelines, myriads more props and overall drastic changes in look and performance... And, of course, the game itself so we know what the hell to do in the first place.
id be happy with grouping and very basic scripting. :)
ive resorted to make very small pieces of maps becuase of how poor performance tends to be. i suppose you could also wait till youre all done then throw in the lighting, but that seems like it would have its own problems. you might either rush through lighting, or find out how ugly it all looks after you get your lighting done :)
I have to say Dracos shots were the best yet, simply because they're so bright (good for gameplay) and at the same time manage to make the brightness atmospheric.
The_Real_QuasarHas the I.Q. of 12,000 P.E. TeachersJoin Date: 2002-11-26Member: 9998Members
<!--quoteo(post=1743339:date=Dec 10 2009, 10:39 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Dec 10 2009, 10:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1743339"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I have to say Dracos shots were the best yet, simply because they're so bright (good for gameplay) and at the same time manage to make the brightness atmospheric.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed. Draco, any chance of some lighting-based hints? You seem to have a keen eye for such things.
A tight quarters "hallway". Like most of you guys, I'm trying to avoid stereotypical 'halls'. Hopefully, if I release a map, it will have loads of rooms connecting larger rooms, with but a few hallways, when necessary. I dig the spooky green, its dark enough to be spooky, but theres enough light to get along without a flashlight. I tried to put some player models in to give examples, but green light on green models doesn't show well.
The obligatory hall, packed with junk to make it look shiny. <img src="http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/7295/hall1o.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
The 'green room' and the hall were both 3-4 hour projects. The hall took a long time, that was just a few days after the release of the editor. Using worldcraft (pre steam hammer) got me into some real bad habits. It's hard to unlearn alot of brush use and abuse, also, i learned to lean alot on your own craftiness with nothing but brush, textures and grid size. Now all you guys got props. Lucky... :)
Thanks shaq, you just made me figure how easy it is to avoid repetitive textures with the line tool. Good work, too.
<!--quoteo(post=1743382:date=Dec 11 2009, 07:57 AM:name=The_Real_Quasar)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The_Real_Quasar @ Dec 11 2009, 07:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1743382"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Agreed. Draco, any chance of some lighting-based hints? You seem to have a keen eye for such things.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Thanks, but I'm really just a beginner. I generally try to evaluate what exactly I want in a scene specifically: brightness, contrast, colour variety, depth, dramatic shadows, etc. may or may not be needed depending on the situation, looks, feel, fiction, function, gameplay and so on. I suppose what Align meant is that it's highly important in any game to see what the hell you're doing at any given moment, which is certainly something level design should strive for.
One thing I can imagine in that regard... The level generally needs to be both uniformly (not necessarily brightly) lit to provide visibility, but also have points of high contrast to avoid disorientation - generally this should result in not just better utility, but better looks as well. It's a rather delicate balance, but Spark makes delicate operations a breeze.
great use of the wall prop for the ceiling. thats one of my favorite props, because its just so mellow. it can jive with alot of the other props and still look good. good lighting too :)
I like the cables running along the side of the walkway. that kind of stuff can make or break the look of that walkway. its simple, but its very easy to overlook. what prop is that on the right side of the hall? some sort of _truss? or is it the refinery support? im not at my home computer, so its hard for me to tell :)
<!--quoteo(post=1743387:date=Dec 10 2009, 10:22 PM:name=Draco_2k)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Draco_2k @ Dec 10 2009, 10:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1743387"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Thanks shaq, you just made me figure how easy it is to avoid repetitive textures with the line tool. Good work, too.
Thanks, but I'm really just a beginner. I generally try to evaluate what exactly I want in a scene specifically: brightness, contrast, colour variety, depth, dramatic shadows, etc. may or may not be needed depending on the situation, looks, feel, fiction, function, gameplay and so on. I suppose what Align meant is that it's highly important in any game to see what the hell you're doing at any given moment, which is certainly something level design should strive for.
One thing I can imagine in that regard... The level generally needs to be both uniformly (not necessarily brightly) lit to provide visibility, but also have points of high contrast to avoid disorientation - generally this should result in not just better utility, but better looks as well. It's a rather delicate balance, but Spark makes delicate operations a breeze.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're amazing for a beginner. Lol youre better than me and I have years of practice (admittedly, not with this tool and years ago, but still!) My main concern is poly count. With time and concentration, its fairly easy to make a good looking hallway. But, will it perform? I sacrificed my floor in the 'green room' and tried to tone it down on on the wall props in my map. I indulged on the ceiling cables and the area above the RT. I also got a little lazy with the RT point itself. I just plopped it down and threw the cable and computer in there. It looks a little trite, in retrospect. It's hard though, without knowing reasonable limitations, to make a good looking, playable map.
<!--quoteo(post=1743403:date=Dec 11 2009, 03:20 PM:name=shaq_mobile)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (shaq_mobile @ Dec 11 2009, 03:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1743403"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You're amazing for a beginner. Lol youre better than me and I have years of practice (admittedly, not with this tool and years ago, but still!) My main concern is poly count. With time and concentration, its fairly easy to make a good looking hallway. But, will it perform? I sacrificed my floor in the 'green room' and tried to tone it down on on the wall props in my map. I indulged on the ceiling cables and the area above the RT. I also got a little lazy with the RT point itself. I just plopped it down and threw the cable and computer in there. It looks a little trite, in retrospect. It's hard though, without knowing reasonable limitations, to make a good looking, playable map.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Thanks a bunch! But I don't think I'm better than anyone right now: the editor and assets are just really damn good, very easy to pick up.
I think we'll have to worry less about polys and more about lights and shadows this time around - especially since they're all dynamic; a couple props may be deleted or replaced by a snappy wall texture, but shutting down lights or their shadows breaks pretty much everything. Max also said that current performance is no indication of the final one so, considering NS2 is built with older hardware in mind, we just may be able to plop down whatever we want anyway.
<!--quoteo(post=1743408:date=Dec 11 2009, 05:01 AM:name=borgking)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (borgking @ Dec 11 2009, 05:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1743408"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->JAGNS2C This time a little bit brighter: <img src="http://borgkinghome.bo.funpic.de/images/ns2editor08.JPG" border="0" class="linked-image" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
maybe a little darker :)
corners tend to be 'busy' by themselves. its good to have transitions, transitions are intuitive enough of a concept for people to notice when they dont exist (like if you removed the props used in the upper left, it would look rather unnatural). you did a good job matching up the side of the texture to the prop, but try a different prop for that upper left corner. some sort of utility pipe. use the fancier wall on the right as a theme. where the lights are in the bottom left corner, try and make their transition into the corner a little more natural. you could probably skate by okay with just lowering the lighting (or reducing the lighting originationg on the right side, and increasing the left side). right now, the hallway is exposed with lighting equally, so its very unforgiving. looks great though, i dig the use of that particular wall texture on the left and the incline on the bottom right works well with the prop.
<!--quoteo(post=1743254:date=Dec 10 2009, 12:29 PM:name=Amran)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Amran @ Dec 10 2009, 12:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1743254"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Huzzah! Now that registrations are finally functional again, here's my contribution. Looking forward to being able to play with the effects that atmospheric lights might pose as well.
Comments
<img src="http://www.polybemani.net/uploader/userfiles/3/NS2Test8.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You wouldn't happen to be a professional level designer, would you?
<img src="http://www.polybemani.net/uploader/userfiles/3/NS2Test8.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The geo seems very intersting. The lightning need more work though. Most of the lights are white and the picture look entirely brown.
And you should avoid having dozens of light, it make the picture flat and a bit unreadable. Try to have one big light to do a hierarchy.
Also, even if the fan with sunray passing through it is looking good, it's quite dumb imho. Who is the architect who designed a room full of electronic stuff and makde a hole in the roof to bring fresh air and... cold rain. :)
Ps : I dont know why, but this room reminds me quake2
<img src="http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/8880/ns2testmap2.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Not as epic as most of the work here, but I'm still learning. (:
It generally helps if you explain the reasons for the any criticism, otherwise anyone is in full right to dismiss it if not get offended by it: unsubstantiated opinion is a big no-no when you're going the route of logic. Per se, explain why exactly it's bad for the outdoor-lit room to look brown, or why one should do a light hierarchy.
(The irony, criticising the criticism. Ahem.)
I think the lighting in that shot is exceptional: it makes the entire level very visible, has enough uniformity so as not to overly confuse the eye, yet enough contrast spots to make it both interesting and easy to orient in.
Made some big changes to the rooms itself now pretty much everything is textured. (Yes most of it is concrete)
BUT! I have found something amazing, put a walkway texture ontop of a concrete texture and you get reinforced concrete!
What you guys think keep or bin?
First difference in editer
<a href="http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/2576/stationgrabnonconclight.jpg" target="_blank">http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/2576/st...onconclight.jpg</a>
<a href="http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/5571/stationgrabconcnonlight.jpg" target="_blank">http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/5571/st...oncnonlight.jpg</a>
Then with lighting effects
<a href="http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/999/stationgrabnonconcnolig.jpg" target="_blank">http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/999/sta...onconcnolig.jpg</a>
<a href="http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/8563/stationgrabconclight.jpg" target="_blank">http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/8563/st...abconclight.jpg</a>
I like it because it picks up light a little better than the concrete and thus gives some definition to the massive surface instead of just BOOORING.
+ Makes more sence to have reinforced concrete because it is more support for the massive room without many supports.
(The irony, criticising the criticism. Ahem.)
I think the lighting in that shot is exceptional: it makes the entire level very visible, has enough uniformity so as not to overly confuse the eye, yet enough contrast spots to make it both interesting and easy to orient in.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Didnt meant to be rude, that why i used smileys, and I have the bad habit to summarize my thought, and hope people will think about it and try to find the answer themself (and learn while trying)
And I've explained why vents on ceiling leading to the outside is weird, because of the rain (and also wind, and other bad wheather)
I absolutely have nothing against brown colors, it's just that most of the lights in this scene are white and you expect the room to be lighten as it is (otherwise the light props looks disconnected from the scene)
About the light hierarchy, its just to have a better look and make the scene more readable. When every lights have almost the same brightness, it make the picture a bit flat and less readable, so you try to have a dominant light that will "lead" the lightning. It's especially useful in a 3d environment, where you can get easily get confused with a high detailed architecture and have trouble to orient yourself.
Hope it answers your questions.
Currently cant do owt about that no matter what colour light you apply infront of a light prop the prop will as of yet always glow very bright white.
Eventually he will be able to change this.
No quality of work, bad or good, is guarantee of reply on a message board. So yeah, keep us posted, that's what the thread is for.
...And how the crikey do you put textures "on top" of one another?
<!--quoteo(post=1743291:date=Dec 10 2009, 06:00 PM:name=Genova)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Genova @ Dec 10 2009, 06:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1743291"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Didnt meant to be rude, that why i used smileys, and I have the bad habit to summarize my thought, and hope people will think about it and try to find the answer themself (and learn while trying)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You don't have to try to be rude to be offensive. Hence, the advice.
<!--quoteo(post=1743291:date=Dec 10 2009, 06:00 PM:name=Genova)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Genova @ Dec 10 2009, 06:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1743291"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And I've explained why vents on ceiling leading to the outside is weird, because of the rain (and also wind, and other bad wheather)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Everything's insulated, and the scene is outdoor-lit :p
Otherwise, yep, details like that help a lot (as in, letting the original creator make a better decision). Good job.
I know heh it was a joke. :)
<!--quoteo(post=1743296:date=Dec 10 2009, 03:13 PM:name=Draco_2k)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Draco_2k @ Dec 10 2009, 03:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1743296"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->...And how the crikey do you put textures "on top" of one another?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Duplicate a face and change the texture, if you pick one with a transparent alpha channel you have a double layered texture...
Normally havng 2 textures in the EXACT same space would cause them to do awkward things however in the editor they dont if one is transparent in places...
I dunno whether they wll in game or not but I cant really test that can i? :P
Anyway its a difficult process to do seen as once you have finnished manipulating your top texture you cant really go back due to always selecting the bottom one and thus you need to either do it all in one go and be happy with it... Or know voo-doo (a long process works but cant be bothered explaining.)
<!--quoteo(post=1743267:date=Dec 10 2009, 04:41 AM:name=Genova)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Genova @ Dec 10 2009, 04:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1743267"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The geo seems very intersting. The lightning need more work though. Most of the lights are white and the picture look entirely brown.
And you should avoid having dozens of light, it make the picture flat and a bit unreadable. Try to have one big light to do a hierarchy.
Also, even if the fan with sunray passing through it is looking good, it's quite dumb imho. Who is the architect who designed a room full of electronic stuff and makde a hole in the roof to bring fresh air and... cold rain. :)
Ps : I dont know why, but this room reminds me quake2<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It does seem like it could be an interesting experiment to add more contrast between the brown/yellow light of the outdoors and the actual lights in the interior. I think I may have been aiming for a bit more of a brighter style then average and playing into the idea that there are a fair number of openings to the exterior. Though realistically, some areas might still be able to use more shadow from the natural sources.
And I guess you could say that, or maybe I could just make some crazy claims like a dry climate or having installed shutters for such cases! May benefit from visible indications of such though. :D
I do appreciate the feedback, and it's some good advice to play with!
Normally havng 2 textures in the EXACT same space would cause them to do awkward things however in the editor they dont if one is transparent in places...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks a bunch.
That's weird, you do normally expect z-fighting in such cases... I think you can move the new face up or down a bit to make sure (and maybe be able to select it at all).
<!--quoteo(post=1743300:date=Dec 10 2009, 06:23 PM:name=Amran)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Amran @ Dec 10 2009, 06:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1743300"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Thank you for the comments Draco, though no, sadly I've not delved into that career path at this point. Have certainly had a lot of good feedback though and just might pursue such things again!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NS2 team promised to buy out the better maps the community makes for the game, so that may just be about the place to start. Keep it up, you certainly know what you're doing.
@ PsympleJester, Your work is really good. The fencing over the concrete wall is actually a great idea, but I'm not sure I like that fencing texture.
Is all lies its crap, I just post it anyway! :D
I dunno all the others seem to look out of place.
No worries draco, yes moving forward would work but it would distort when moving position due to perspective and the closer you stood the worse it would distort as you moved.
So a skulk on my wall would be like... "Woah, the ######..."
Also look guys!
Concrete textures are boring... but look what lots of light sorces do to a big room full of boring concrete (I still have a lot more lights to add too!)
<a href="http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/4952/whatlightsdo.jpg" target="_blank">http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/4952/whatlightsdo.jpg</a>
<a href="http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/4333/whatlightsdo2.jpg" target="_blank">http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/4333/whatlightsdo2.jpg</a>
For some reason, the shadows fade away as soon as you are not very close to the light source, so my big spot lights he ground where it should be occluded by the catwalk.
Of course the light colors in the hallways are placeholder to better see he different exit paths from the room.
<img src="http://pix.wefrag.com/i/b/8/3/9/a/8880a6dc8e301ad3c6b8a385bacb13c.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
ill have to post some of the stuff ive done. ive been itching to post, but registration has been down so long, and now im at work :(
theres some really awesome work out there, with all the props and stuff, ive seen some really sweet work. being forced to sit on the sidelines and watch this thread grow from but a page or two, i do have some raw commentary.
keep in mind, though everyone is more than welcome to share their opinions, try to also keep in mind, the map maker is an artist, architect and strategist. its perfectly okay to have a room thats "too dark" if it fits your theme, format and strategy. balance is important, but extremes help accent your work (just make sure to be gentle!) Remember, some of the hallways and rooms need more than just props, they need depth. I see a few instances of people putting down props, with which a few adjustments, could add more play depth to rooms and hallways. It might be wise to spend as few polys as you can on props, until we know more about how the engine can handle them. It's really easy to go nuts with lighting and props, but that may seriously hamper the gameplay in the long run. Who cares how good it looks if no one can play it (Crysis *cough cough*.)
Amran, that room transports me back to 2.5d shooter days. great job! i feel as if im looking at a screenshot straight from the Doom movie (which is also an excellent place to get inspiration, Aliens isn't the only series in gritty space.)
Bullet, your work is awesome!
Everyone keep up the awesome work, there are alot of mappers out there I forgot to mention, but everyone has such great material. I mapped from 7th grade to about 12th. After four years, NS2 has inspired me to start mapping again. I'll get some screenies and see what you guys think. I'm a little rusty (and I was never exceptional).
So while starting out your NS2 level might sound attractive at the moment, it means you'll be missing out on major features and changes that could have made your job easier or more spectacular, if not risk incompatibility or performance issues. I'm guessing it's thus best to accommodate yourself with the editor and modding in general rather than embarking on a full-scale project head-on (which is sort of true in any field, really).
More specifically, I'm pretty sure we'll eventually have at least... Grouping, layer support for level geometry, prop skins, decals, parenting, movers, scripting, light controllers, atmospheric lighting, fog, particle systems, colour correction, physics, texture tools, in-editor playtesting, official mapping guidelines, myriads more props and overall drastic changes in look and performance... And, of course, the game itself so we know what the hell to do in the first place.
So... Sometime during beta, I guess?
ive resorted to make very small pieces of maps becuase of how poor performance tends to be. i suppose you could also wait till youre all done then throw in the lighting, but that seems like it would have its own problems. you might either rush through lighting, or find out how ugly it all looks after you get your lighting done :)
Agreed. Draco, any chance of some lighting-based hints? You seem to have a keen eye for such things.
<img src="http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/7039/33038795.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<img src="http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/1878/49587501.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<img src="http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/7610/41413778.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
The obligatory hall, packed with junk to make it look shiny.
<img src="http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/7295/hall1o.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
The 'green room' and the hall were both 3-4 hour projects. The hall took a long time, that was just a few days after the release of the editor. Using worldcraft (pre steam hammer) got me into some real bad habits. It's hard to unlearn alot of brush use and abuse, also, i learned to lean alot on your own craftiness with nothing but brush, textures and grid size. Now all you guys got props. Lucky... :)
<!--quoteo(post=1743382:date=Dec 11 2009, 07:57 AM:name=The_Real_Quasar)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The_Real_Quasar @ Dec 11 2009, 07:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1743382"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Agreed. Draco, any chance of some lighting-based hints? You seem to have a keen eye for such things.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks, but I'm really just a beginner. I generally try to evaluate what exactly I want in a scene specifically: brightness, contrast, colour variety, depth, dramatic shadows, etc. may or may not be needed depending on the situation, looks, feel, fiction, function, gameplay and so on. I suppose what Align meant is that it's highly important in any game to see what the hell you're doing at any given moment, which is certainly something level design should strive for.
One thing I can imagine in that regard... The level generally needs to be both uniformly (not necessarily brightly) lit to provide visibility, but also have points of high contrast to avoid disorientation - generally this should result in not just better utility, but better looks as well. It's a rather delicate balance, but Spark makes delicate operations a breeze.
<a href="http://i.imagehost.org/0151/keker.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i.imagehost.org/0017/keker_s.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /></a>
<a href="http://i.imagehost.org/0151/keker.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i.imagehost.org/0017/keker_s.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /></a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
great use of the wall prop for the ceiling. thats one of my favorite props, because its just so mellow. it can jive with alot of the other props and still look good. good lighting too :)
I like the cables running along the side of the walkway. that kind of stuff can make or break the look of that walkway. its simple, but its very easy to overlook. what prop is that on the right side of the hall? some sort of _truss? or is it the refinery support? im not at my home computer, so its hard for me to tell :)
Thanks, but I'm really just a beginner. I generally try to evaluate what exactly I want in a scene specifically: brightness, contrast, colour variety, depth, dramatic shadows, etc. may or may not be needed depending on the situation, looks, feel, fiction, function, gameplay and so on. I suppose what Align meant is that it's highly important in any game to see what the hell you're doing at any given moment, which is certainly something level design should strive for.
One thing I can imagine in that regard... The level generally needs to be both uniformly (not necessarily brightly) lit to provide visibility, but also have points of high contrast to avoid disorientation - generally this should result in not just better utility, but better looks as well. It's a rather delicate balance, but Spark makes delicate operations a breeze.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're amazing for a beginner. Lol youre better than me and I have years of practice (admittedly, not with this tool and years ago, but still!)
My main concern is poly count. With time and concentration, its fairly easy to make a good looking hallway. But, will it perform? I sacrificed my floor in the 'green room' and tried to tone it down on on the wall props in my map. I indulged on the ceiling cables and the area above the RT. I also got a little lazy with the RT point itself. I just plopped it down and threw the cable and computer in there. It looks a little trite, in retrospect. It's hard though, without knowing reasonable limitations, to make a good looking, playable map.
My main concern is poly count. With time and concentration, its fairly easy to make a good looking hallway. But, will it perform? I sacrificed my floor in the 'green room' and tried to tone it down on on the wall props in my map. I indulged on the ceiling cables and the area above the RT. I also got a little lazy with the RT point itself. I just plopped it down and threw the cable and computer in there. It looks a little trite, in retrospect. It's hard though, without knowing reasonable limitations, to make a good looking, playable map.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks a bunch! But I don't think I'm better than anyone right now: the editor and assets are just really damn good, very easy to pick up.
I think we'll have to worry less about polys and more about lights and shadows this time around - especially since they're all dynamic; a couple props may be deleted or replaced by a snappy wall texture, but shutting down lights or their shadows breaks pretty much everything. Max also said that current performance is no indication of the final one so, considering NS2 is built with older hardware in mind, we just may be able to plop down whatever we want anyway.
This time a little bit brighter:
<img src="http://borgkinghome.bo.funpic.de/images/ns2editor08.JPG" border="0" class="linked-image" />
I look at all your work and see your props looking perfect in most situations.
But I cant find them! :|
This time a little bit brighter:
<img src="http://borgkinghome.bo.funpic.de/images/ns2editor08.JPG" border="0" class="linked-image" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
maybe a little darker :)
corners tend to be 'busy' by themselves. its good to have transitions, transitions are intuitive enough of a concept for people to notice when they dont exist (like if you removed the props used in the upper left, it would look rather unnatural). you did a good job matching up the side of the texture to the prop, but try a different prop for that upper left corner. some sort of utility pipe. use the fancier wall on the right as a theme. where the lights are in the bottom left corner, try and make their transition into the corner a little more natural. you could probably skate by okay with just lowering the lighting (or reducing the lighting originationg on the right side, and increasing the left side). right now, the hallway is exposed with lighting equally, so its very unforgiving. looks great though, i dig the use of that particular wall texture on the left and the incline on the bottom right works well with the prop.
<img src="http://www.polybemani.net/uploader/userfiles/3/NS2Test8.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I bow before you
Great combination of models and geometry.
Looking forward to see more :)