Newsflash About Leagues

Akiro · November 2002

<div class="IPBDescription">they suck thus far</div> Ok, i've been an avid clan player since.... 1998 at the latest. I've done q2 LMCTF matches, tribes matches, aq2 matches, cs, dod and now im on to NS. What is **obscenity** me off is that, people don't understand for every DIFFERENT game with new gameplays.... you need a NEW type of match. From what i see cal is doing they are turning this into cs with bases. WHY do they take the good parts of this game and then limit it because the cs players don't have that much "time". Yet they pick saturday as the match nigth they want, apparently they spend too much time pretending to be mature and pretending to have lives because my whole clan will be OUT saturdays.... we are 18+ and do not want to sit here and be limited by stupid rules and be asked to play on a night we don't have classes/exams for college and so on (and work as well).

I suggest we get some new leagues fast, that will let the game be the way it is supposed to be.

If anytime limit make it.... 60 min. This way when a good game is going it can at least be fun before it ends. Last night we tried playing by "cals rules", we ended up qinning both sides in under 35 min BUT we rushed our **obscenity** off to do it and not one side saw a Onos, the fatherst our team managaed was HA and grenade lauchers...... yes it was exciting... did it have all the essence of NS....?

**obscenity** NO <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='mad.gif'>

(p.s: i don't care if you all say..... "maybe this game was meant to be like this"....... if you believe that... i think you're wrong because they would of had built in timelimits for the first release. It's obviously an afterthought because incomptent people can only do so much as you can see)

Tweedle · November 2002

Yep, I agree with you. CAL is just jumping in with everyone else to try to take a hold of the league "market." CAL gets money from sponsorships, so if they jump in early enough, and have enough "followers" (regardless of how much their entire setup blows **obscenity**) they can make their money.

Ideally, get a handful of neutral 18+ admins (ever notice how other leagues have admins that are fourteen and also play in the same leagues they admin? <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='mad.gif'> ) and set up shop at <a href='http://league.natural-selection.org/' target='_blank'>http://league.natural-selection.org/</a> . The NS team did a great job coming up with the game. They obviously know what they want in it, so who better to set up the rules and regulations? Keep it all official and run off of there. Competition is good, but when your competition is trying to make money instead of providing a fun, competitive environment, screw them.

UGLLeif · November 2002

Hey,

If your looking for another NS league check out United Gaming League. Unlike CAL we dont have matches only Saturday nights, or Friday nights. Matches are on Thursday and Sunday. We are still tuning the rules and the .cfg with the new versions comming out all the time so the method of scoring is still to be determined. However, we aren't looking to turn NS into CS as you said. Its obvious that it takes time to play this game even if it does take a couple hours of ur ever so <u>precious</u> time.

You can check out our website @ <a href='http://www.ugleague.net' target='_blank'>http://www.ugleague.net</a>
Or on irc @ #ugl for the main channel
or #ugl.ns for the Natural Selection Channel

-Leif
<a href='http://www.ugleague.net' target='_blank'>http://www.ugleague.net</a>
Leif@ugleague.net

Akiro · November 2002

i'm glad you guys read past my.... sort of vicious nature and saw i had a good point.

i will definitly check out the UGL league, and will most likely be joining.

thanks guys.

btw.... the main prob i saw with cal is the rules and the match night. i would expect any teenage to adult aged person to want to go out and not have to be forced to spend a ngith in for a game. and i sure as hell do not wanna ditch the game because match nights are bad, but if they were saturday i'd have to.

othell · November 2002

Man...

You people are silly. You claim to be 18+ yet you do not fully recognize the intricacies of running a league. So lets just look at a few things real quick.

I'm the Head Admin for CAL-NS and for one thing I hate CS. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'> I dont even know why you want to compare CAL-NS to CAL-CS anyways. Totally different games with totally different objectives. But whatever... I'm an avid TFC player and realize what real teamwork is. This game actually has the potential to require more teamwork and strategy than TFC, to an extent that most of you probably do not even realize. This is an online based game, which means that matches must be completed within a timely manner. You cannot have rounds that last for 60 mins or longer or else the game will face an ugly death in leagues. Regardless of what you think, the potential support that NS is looking for will not be found in leagues if individual rounds last for 60 minutes or more. CAL has set each round at 45 minutes, which is plenty of time to get to even the highest levels in the tech tree. You cannot really expect people to have fun at their computer playing 2 - 3 hours straight. It's unreal and a lie if you think you could do that week after week. We are working closely with Flayra in the format that we are going to take. You may not like there being ways other than totally annihilating the other team to win a match. That's just too bad. We've had open discussions about different aspects of scoring for NS and I'll assure you that the spirit of NS will not change because of what we do.

You dont even know the official rules yet and you're complaining. Then you complain about what day is picked when there was a poll done on the website. Over 400 people participated in the poll (actually, I think it may have been over 500). 1/3 of those that participated in it chose Saturday, not to mention a full 1/4 chose Sunday. That's over half of the participants that chose Saturday or Sunday. The rest were pretty evenly spread out across the week. Now which day do you think would be the best for us to choose?? A day that very few chose or a day that the most chose?

The rules for CAL-NS have actually been written and I'm just waiting for a few things to post them. They promote fun and agressive gameplay. But until they are released, hold off on your statements about what CAL-NS will be like, because you obviously have no idea.

Get real people. Grow up. Before you start attacking leagues or their admins get all the facts. I'm 21 yrs old and fixing to graduate from college. I have plenty of experience and maturity to realize most things that can and cannot be good for online play. You have most likely played NS just as much as I have, but you have not conducted playtests and realized how NS will work in league play. CAL has. So we kind of think we have a better idea than almost anyone out there, except the dev team. That is why we are working with Flayra.

If you do not want to play in CAL... fine. That's your decision, but we will be offering the chance for clans to participate in the best NS league on the net.

My staff is not here to make money. I do this on a completely voluntary basis. CAL really isnt even here to make money like you think. Its primary purpose is an online extension of the CPL (who's job it is to make money). CAL's primary purpose is to be the best online league. End of story. It has always been a place where admins work hard to maximize the level of fun players experience.

Moleculor · November 2002

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (othell @ Nov 13 2002, 06:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>This is an online based game, which means that matches must be completed within a timely manner. You cannot have rounds that last for 60 mins or longer or else the game will face an ugly death in leagues. Regardless of what you think, the potential support that NS is looking for will not be found in leagues if individual rounds last for 60 minutes or more.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
I think you'll find this thread facinating then:

<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=10815' target='_blank'> I Was In A Stalemate For 3 Hours, and it was the best round ever!</a>

othell · November 2002

try doing that week after week.

UGLLeif · November 2002

I'm pretty sure people don't play games like Star Craft, WC3, and NS because they want a stragy game that lasts 15 mins. Its a game that takes time, However, a 3 hour game week after week isn't too much fun either. There IS a medium in between that I belive the game should be played in for leagues like UGL (Even CAL too).

Rue · November 2002

read my other post, the 3rd way of league play , so far i think its the best
<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'>

Akiro · November 2002

othell, not once did i say the CAL admins were at fault, no but because of CAL's past and its general nature. It will always be dominated by former cs players. I don't care how old you are, and i don't need a lecture on how i "don't understand how hard your job is". One day you will realize that CAL-NS is not the best league because it carries the name CAL. Take a look at cal-dod, my clan Highball will not participate in it because we think its a horrid league. Yet we have joined 2 others (STA, UGS, and IGL) and have been parcipating in those 3 for a while now.

#2 your taking my argument about a day from "Please do not make it on saturday", to "OMFG I WANT IT WHEN I DAM WELL WANT IT AND **obscenity** EVERYONE ELSE"

#3: You say i claim to be 18+ ? what now im a liar just because you personally don't agree with my statements??? Well welcome to life, the day you start telling people they are below you because you don't agree with them is the day you're gonna **obscenity** off half the world.

#4
</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>From what i see cal is doing they are turning this into cs with bases. WHY do they take the good parts of this game and then limit it because the cs players don't have that much "time". Yet they pick saturday as the match nigth they want, apparently they spend too much time pretending to be mature and pretending to have lives because my whole clan will be OUT saturdays.... we are 18+ and do not want to sit here and be limited by stupid rules and be asked to play on a night we don't have classes/exams for college and so on (and work as well).</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

now i may not have made that clear, but im talking about the PLAYERS in cal. But guess what, as long as you do whatever the players vote for..... then you are gonna have to live with that fact that if the majority of the cal players wnat cs with bases and a **obscenity** match night..... then YOU to are assumed to want it as well.

either way, most of my bias comes from dealing with the dod div of CAL, also, don't post tentative rules with a almsot done label and then yell at us when we make assumptions based off of that.

for a soon to be college grad, it seems funny you get so defensive over 1 mans remarks.

EiseNz · November 2002

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Over 400 people participated in the poll (actually, I think it may have been over 500). 1/3 of those that participated in it chose Saturday, not to mention a full 1/4 chose Sunday. That's over half of the participants that chose Saturday or Sunday. The rest were pretty evenly spread out across the week. Now which day do you think would be the best for us to choose?? A day that very few chose or a day that the most chose?
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

that makes sense, choose the day that 1/3 of the people on the poll voted for. so the other 2/3 voting for other days, are unable to play. makes so much sense, you said around 500 people were in the poll, so thats around 165 people voting for saturday, and are able to attend matches on saturdays, so chosing that day for the matches would put 335 players out of the league, unable to play, due to work / life / anything else you can think of that has more priority than gaming, like picking my nose.

also, you have a point about chosing a day that less people voted for, so why dont you be cooperative and negotiate and choose a few days that matches can be played on, give a week or a little less for the matches to be reported, and let the matches be played from thursday-sunday. makes sense, more can play, making the league popular, helping your status, and the leagues status.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>CAL's primary purpose is to be the best online league. End of story. It has always been a place where admins work hard to maximize the level of fun players experience. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

you said it, now act upon it. CAL wont be the best online league, CAL needs to take player input and work harder to make the "fun" level higher, needs to use the input from the players who will drive the league to be the "best league online league", right now CAL is lacking in that department, so fix it, do your job, chop chop, CAL has a lot of work to do match the maturity level and "fun" level of other leagues.

take suggestions, use them, negotiate, dont use data from polls that eliminates 2/3 of the future cal-ns gamers.

UGLLeif · November 2002

This is from the <a href='http://www.ugleague.net/?gid=rules#B' target='_blank'>UGL Rules</a>.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>We recognize that scheduling and real life can sometimes cause headaches and would encourage clans to be as flexible as possible in trying to accommodate scheduling issues when they arise.

If you wish to reschedule, you must contact the opposing clan’s leader and work it out with them in advance. Make sure you reschedule the match with a member of the opposing clan who has the authority to reschedule the match.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Seems resonable to me, and i'm sure EiseNz will agree

Flayra · November 2002

Akiro, simmer down, your tone is completely uncalled for.

While I don't like the idea of timed matches, the timed nature of the CAL matches is a temporary solution. My ultimate goal is to have the average NS game last in the 20-30 minute range (originally 20, now 20-30). I've been working on this for months, and it's not going to happen over night. That said, in the meantime, I don't want to crippled NS' league popularity because of it. While CAL can play NS however they want and I can't stop them <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'>, I could decide not to support them in any way. I've chosen to support them and their (blasted!) timelimit, because it's good for NS and good for the NS community. I believe the timelimit is a fine compromise for now, but don't get me wrong: I fully expect the timelimit to be hit less and less as NS is more refined.

I'm not sacrificing my vision for NS here, I'm temporarily compromising. For the good of everyone. If a lot of matches end by hitting the timelimit, you can bet that I'll be spending more time working on shortening the game length.

othell · November 2002

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (EiseNz @ Nov 13 2002, 10:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>that makes sense, choose the day that 1/3 of the people on the poll voted for. so the other 2/3 voting for other days, are unable to play. makes so much sense, you said around 500 people were in the poll, so thats around 165 people voting for saturday, and are able to attend matches on saturdays, so chosing that day for the matches would put 335 players out of the league, unable to play, due to work / life / anything else you can think of that has more priority than gaming, like picking my nose.

also, you have a point about chosing a day that less people voted for, so why dont you be cooperative and negotiate and choose a few days that matches can be played on, give a week or a little less for the matches to be reported, and let the matches be played from thursday-sunday. makes sense, more can play, making the league popular, helping your status, and the leagues status.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>CAL's primary purpose is to be the best online league. End of story. It has always been a place where admins work hard to maximize the level of fun players experience. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

you said it, now act upon it. CAL wont be the best online league, CAL needs to take player input and work harder to make the "fun" level higher, needs to use the input from the players who will drive the league to be the "best league online league", right now CAL is lacking in that department, so fix it, do your job, chop chop, CAL has a lot of work to do match the maturity level and "fun" level of other leagues.

take suggestions, use them, negotiate, dont use data from polls that eliminates 2/3 of the future cal-ns gamers.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
you're missing the entire point. 33% vote for Saturday. almost 25% vote for sunday. 7% vote for monday. 14% vote for tuesday... etc etc etc. the other days got fewer than half the votes that saturday got. so understand the math for once. the only post on our forums concerning the when matches would be scheduled was a reply to that question. it states that saturday was the day the most people picked and then gave reasons why that was likely the case. it never once said that was the day it will be, nor did it say how we will be scheduling matches. we may do multiple days, but until the rules are released you will have no idea.

i will tell you this though. whatever day is picked for matches is really only the FINAL day that matches can be held. if both teams agree to have the match on a date and time prior to the match day, as long as they tell the admins, that is perfectly acceptable.

othell · November 2002

Flayra said stuff so i'm just going to not say anything for the moment.

UGLLeif · November 2002

I don't belive this should be about league rules at all. Its about having a <u>fun</u> game that can be played week after week so that it is feasible for a league situation. There is no dispute that there MUST be a timelimit due to the fact that there is going to be a stalemate's occuring. The length of 'how long' the game should be ~20-30mins as Flayra said with a maximum time of ~1hour.

Akiro · November 2002

well heres the thing, if i want a 20-30 min game i'll go play dod, because well....... that game is meant to be short. NS to fully enjoy every part of it needs to be longer. Like i said, we played as marines and aliens agaisnt a clan monday night, now we won the marine round in..... 35 min and 30 seconds. That was a fun game, the aliens side we won it with skulks pretty much, we were able to get 4 to there commander and take it down, as we saw they were too busy trying to take down a hive while we had another being built and nother on the way, so by the last 5 min of the match we fianlly got fades. No side ever saw the light of an onos, nor a fade for that long. We won the alien side in 22 min. See the reason we rushed to finish off the marines was because we set a 35 minute timelimit, and because we killed their base in 35 min and 30 seconds as marines we had to total it br frags. so it was 90-31, now we made sure we killed them asap because we did not want to lose by a simple frag ratio. Luckily had we been held to a notehr stalemate i think we would of been able to beat the ratio cause as it was we ended 58-38 for aliens, so we only had a 20 point deficit.

now this was a fun match, but i felt constircted by the fact that we were rsuhing to defeat them and all we did was rush attack spanws and guys and die. Noone even used any abiliry besides the defense ones. If the game had gone on long enough to allow us onos, we would have tied once again. i think games should have a 45-60 min timelimit, because realistically that where most games will land between good clans. Either way i doubt most rounds would go that long thus it's only a *possible* 2 1/2 hour match with the possibility it could be 1 1/2 hours.

P.S: Flayra, my tone may have been uncalled for but all i'm doing is trying to ensure that everyone will have a place to play the ganme in a league, and i think my tone brought more attention then a simple "I'm unhappy post". Either way it does not mean i don't show respect, i jsut have a different way of accomplishing things.

UGLLeif · November 2002

Personaly I like the idea of trying to beat the clock. If the Kahraa (team A) beat the marines (team B) in 34.20 then lose as Marine in 15mins. Then Team B wins.

Race against the clock, play against each other.

MarineSGT · November 2002

I think putting a time limit on a round makes the game into something that it's not. there is now scoring system like other games, just live or don't live. So putting a time limit is going to force a new scoring system or something and that's not what this game is about. Besides..those who play NS at a league level are usually those who have the time to play full rounds.

Necro · November 2002

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Flayra @ Nov 14 2002, 10:00 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Akiro, simmer down, your tone is completely uncalled for.

While I don't like the idea of timed matches, the timed nature of the CAL matches is a temporary solution. My ultimate goal is to have the average NS game last in the 20-30 minute range (originally 20, now 20-30). I've been working on this for months, and it's not going to happen over night. That said, in the meantime, I don't want to crippled NS' league popularity because of it. While CAL can play NS however they want and I can't stop them <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'>, I could decide not to support them in any way. I've chosen to support them and their (blasted!) timelimit, because it's good for NS and good for the NS community. I believe the timelimit is a fine compromise for now, but don't get me wrong: I fully expect the timelimit to be hit less and less as NS is more refined.

I'm not sacrificing my vision for NS here, I'm temporarily compromising. For the good of everyone. If a lot of matches end by hitting the timelimit, you can bet that I'll be spending more time working on shortening the game length.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
amen. i think the resource limit would SEVERLY injure ns clan play, and i really hope the good european/internation leagues don't use it (clanfission, jolt.co.uk and clanbase)

ns is PART RTS, which means the games are supposed 2 take long, the only time rts matches are short is when someone rushes. just like NS!

othell · November 2002

Akiro, just so you know. CAL-NS right now has the timelimit set a 45 minutes, so you had another 20 minutes or so to play as aliens.

And as for the argument against the timelimit. That's just silly. There are plenty of people who play in leagues just to play the game. They dont necessarily have the time to play until one side is dead or not. I would wager that's the way it is for most people. Besides that, I seriously doubt many people would like to play a game that takes 2 + hours week after week after week ...

Something else that needs to be realized is that this will only be the first season of match play. We dont plan on just sitting back and saying "Well thats it. No more changes. This should be good enough for the life of the game." We'll be constantly reviewing and tweaking that which needs to be tweaked. CAL-NS will evolve as NS evolves.

MarineSGT · November 2002

Othell says, "Besides that, I seriously doubt many people would like to play a game that takes 2 + hours week after week after week ... " and you say this to people who haven't had much sleep since this mod came out? I mean heck..there are numeroud threads where people are talking about how much they play and how the time just seems to..well fly! check this out though...could something like this work? -->

<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=22&t=10944' target='_blank'>NS League Concept</a>

othell · November 2002

i've actually had plenty of sleep and played it quite alot since it was released. I actually havent pubbed in TFC since it came out. Only played in a few matches here and there. People will not want to play this in a league format for hours on end. I'm not saying that playing it for hours on end isnt fun, I'm saying playing it hours on end week after week after week isnt fun.

The attributes which make NS so much fun will still be present in CAL-NS... even with our (blasted!! <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'> ) timelimit. Playing like that mentally wears on people. I'm sure there are some that could do it... hell, they'd probably enjoy it, but the majority of people would not be able to.

Necro · November 2002

yes but think of it like this, okay, round 1 team A wins, so all they gotta do is hold them off, they don't have 2 be afraid of losing because all they have 2 do is hold it off for 45 minutes. Timelimits won't be good with ns imho.

Never · November 2002

personally, i dig the idea that was presented by MarineSGT (involving side-specific teams). your clan could have an alien and a marine division, too (and it could be set so they dont play eachother incase the players are the same).

i see this as reasonable. see, i play TFC. and, in matches, after round 1 you basically know where you stand and how you wanna run round 2. but w/ NS, your status is SO dynamic, that i feel like it would be hurt if there was a break in the middle of a match. therefore, this idea seems feasable. its one fight. stright through to the end. no ifs ands or buts. there is no tie. there is no timelimit. the only constraint is that you are limited to a team (unless you have clan divisions for each team. and dont forget, those divisions could include the same players).

but, im not a league admin or a PT or a dev. i dont know THAT much about the game. so, its just an idea. but i like it far and away above the other ideas presented.

P.S.
i really do appreciate all the work you guys are putting in. personally, id love to do anything to help. but, either way, a massive GG to all you guys for trying to make this work. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'>

SovKhan · November 2002

i wont be playign on any league that has saturday matches. its clear these people dont think we have lives.
i like ns but i like my life better

othell · November 2002

Just so that you know... We did run a poll and at least half of those who participated (which was 400 - 500 people) chose Saturday and Sunday.

But you know what else??

We haven't even released match day. So please settle down.

Warfare · November 2002

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (othell @ Nov 13 2002, 10:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>try doing that week after week.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Sure, no problem.

UGLLeif · November 2002

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Warfare @ Nov 15 2002, 02:22 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (othell @ Nov 13 2002, 10:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>try doing that week after week.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Sure, no problem.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
lol

Mr_Radical_Ed · November 2002

<span style='color:darkslategray'>I Agree with most people on this subject. I was in my clan's channel while the votes were going on, and hoping that CAL would go with Wednesday/Thursday/Sunday as major possibilities, but Saturday just isn't going to work for me, and most of the other members of Critical eXtinction. I assumed most other clans participating with CAL would have wanted another day besides Saturday, but nothing is set in stone.. so I'm going to ride it out an see.</span>

<span style='color:midnightblue'>What saddens me the most is the statement Flayra made about aiming for games to be 20-30 minutes long. I personally like the hour long games. I see a need for a time limit, but also, and this is coming from my perspective, that when I joined this clan for league play I am looking for a full NS game experience even if its an hour and thirty minutes long. I enjoy long dedicated games like. I do get sick of the 2+ hour games, but I feel 1 hour can be tolerated. I see NS as more of a RTS game than a FPS like CS or DoD, and playing a RTS game that ends in 20-30 minutes would not be fun in my opinion.</span>

anyway that was just a few of my opinions I felt I had to express <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'>

Bluee · November 2002

I haven't read through the rules (because the timelimit disgusts me), but I was curious about what would decide the winner if the same race won both sides of the map?

Would it be total accumulated resources? Time taken to win? Or that funky Team Score value? What is factored into that Team Score value?

Newsflash About Leagues

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