Skulks too big?

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Comments

  • EnragedPlatypusEnragedPlatypus Join Date: 2009-05-30 Member: 67567Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1735254:date=Nov 1 2009, 08:22 AM:name=blackpiranha)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (blackpiranha @ Nov 1 2009, 08:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1735254"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If the skulk model is really that big in the first version I'd be a bit worried. <b>As you know it's a small, fast and vulnerable lifeform which got it's advantages in scouting, sneak attacks, movement and team attacks.</b> This worked great in Ns1 - no need to change that.

    Also the LMG is kinda oversized in the screenshot.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    This seems to be the biggest issue I have with complaints about the game. You're basing all of your information off of NS1. This is called NS2 for a reason. If the team finds that most people weren't as scared by a vicious ferret as a rabid dog, then I hope they go with it. Because I agree, bigger is scarier. As for the people saying "Oh, bigger means less hiding spots", again... You're grouping a model from the new game, with the maps of the old. How can people start thinking about less hiding spots when the second screenshot released, are two skulks hiding/sneaking around in some vents?

    I find too many people want their NS2 to just be NS1 on a new engine. I don't think that's what the devs are going for. If that upsets you- Well, get a group of people to make a mod for NS2 called NS1.
  • homicidehomicide Join Date: 2003-11-10 Member: 22451Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1735620:date=Nov 2 2009, 12:06 PM:name=zex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zex @ Nov 2 2009, 12:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1735620"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Its kind of hard for me to respond to this because I don't know exactly how Spark deals with animation, and I can't speak to the mathematics behind animation either. All I can say is, having worked with several 3d software packages and several 3d game engines, everything goes to hell when you rescale a skinned 3d model. It's got something to do with the relative transformation of vertex co-ordinates, but I can't get any more specific than that...I don't have a background in math...the problem is something like, when you change the scale, you are changing the position at which transformations are occurring, so for example if a bone rotates 25% to drive the location of a vertex on the model at position 2,3,6... and you change the vertex position to 6,8,10 because you have scaled the whole model, when the bone rotates 25% in its animation, the end result is different because all the numbers have changed. Does this make sense?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Except math doesn't work that way.
  • homicidehomicide Join Date: 2003-11-10 Member: 22451Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1735730:date=Nov 2 2009, 06:49 PM:name=EnragedPlatypus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (EnragedPlatypus @ Nov 2 2009, 06:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1735730"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This seems to be the biggest issue I have with complaints about the game. You're basing all of your information off of NS1. This is called NS2 for a reason. If the team finds that most people weren't as scared by a vicious ferret as a rabid dog, then I hope they go with it. Because I agree, bigger is scarier. As for the people saying "Oh, bigger means less hiding spots", again... You're grouping a model from the new game, with the maps of the old. How can people start thinking about less hiding spots when the second screenshot released, are two skulks hiding/sneaking around in some vents?

    I find too many people want their NS2 to just be NS1 on a new engine. I don't think that's what the devs are going for. If that upsets you- Well, get a group of people to make a mod for NS2 called NS1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    This seems to be the biggest issue I have with complaints about complaints. You're basing all of your information off of nothing. This is called NS2 for a reason.
  • Mr.BanThatNoobMr.BanThatNoob Join Date: 2009-11-02 Member: 69233Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1735722:date=Nov 2 2009, 07:54 PM:name=SentrySteve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SentrySteve @ Nov 2 2009, 07:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1735722"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Don't forget that skulks now have leap at level one. Twitch may still very well be a factor.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    More bunnyhops come to my mind
  • Invader_ScootInvader_Scoot Join Date: 2003-10-13 Member: 21669Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    <!--quoteo(post=1735735:date=Nov 2 2009, 10:10 PM:name=homicide)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (homicide @ Nov 2 2009, 10:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1735735"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This seems to be the biggest issue I have with complaints about complaints. You're basing all of your information off of nothing. This is called NS2 for a reason.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Oh wow, I love this. Sig'd!
  • zexzex Join Date: 2009-10-07 Member: 68978Members
    edited November 2009
    <!--quoteo(post=1735734:date=Nov 3 2009, 03:07 AM:name=homicide)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (homicide @ Nov 3 2009, 03:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1735734"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Except math doesn't work that way.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    okay, fair enough - I knew I shouldn't have tried to explain the math behind it. I have no idea how or why matrix multiplication works, maybe "homicide" can enlighten me about matrix transformations and how they are "relative the ether frame," but I do know how 3d graphics software works, and trust me - scaling skinned models and their rigs is a hairy proposition, and no 3d engine that I am aware of can deal with it natively.
  • homicidehomicide Join Date: 2003-11-10 Member: 22451Members
    No, all 3D modeling software allows rescaling. In fact, all vector based graphics are inherently infinitely scalable within the capability of the floating point values. Point is, it is actually impossible to make a 3D engine that doesn't support rescaling.
  • zexzex Join Date: 2009-10-07 Member: 68978Members
    I'm not sure what your point about "vector based graphics" is, Homicide, but be advised I never said it was impossible for 3d engines to support scaling. That's a non-sequiter, like most of the replies you've been posting. I said it was a difficult process, at very least it involves re-exporting every animation associated with the scaled model, as well as any secondary animation that needs to line up properly with the model.
  • JAmazonJAmazon Join Date: 2009-02-21 Member: 66503Members
    a(x,y,z) = (ax,ay,az)

    That is all you need to know to see that vector based graphics scaling is pretty easy both arithmetically and computationally. The only point of technicality is in the definition of the origin, if your model is centered at (0,0,0) then the scaled one will be at (0,0,0). If you have a model that's offset from the origin at some point (x0,y0,z0) then your model will be displaced by a distance of a(x0,y0,z0) after the transformation. Its called a similarity transformation and preserves all angles and relative distance ratios. So there's no real technical barrier to re-sizing models/animations as long as you remember to select all of your bones and vertices when performing the operation.
  • homicidehomicide Join Date: 2003-11-10 Member: 22451Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1735786:date=Nov 2 2009, 11:40 PM:name=zex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zex @ Nov 2 2009, 11:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1735786"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not sure what your point about "vector based graphics" is, Homicide, but be advised I never said it was impossible for 3d engines to support scaling. That's a non-sequiter, like most of the replies you've been posting. I said it was a difficult process, at very least it involves re-exporting every animation associated with the scaled model, as well as any secondary animation that needs to line up properly with the model.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    No, it involves opening notepad and changing a number from 1.0 to 0.8.

    Anyways, the point is that the models are too large right now, but it doesn't really matter because UWE will change them <b>extremely</b> easily.
  • FortuneFortune Join Date: 2009-04-27 Member: 67290Members, Constellation
    edited November 2009
    The Skulks in the original picture look menacing, the resized smaller Skulks are kinda laughable. It looks fine as it is, I hope UWE don't change it.

    Also having larger Skulks is a good thing, it will force more people to use (Lovingly decorated) vents for ambushing and stealth as opposed to just running and jumping at a marine trying to bite his ankles.
  • zexzex Join Date: 2009-10-07 Member: 68978Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1735788:date=Nov 3 2009, 07:46 AM:name=JAmazon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (JAmazon @ Nov 3 2009, 07:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1735788"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->vector based graphics scaling<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Why are you guys still talking about <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vector_graphics" target="_blank">vector based graphics?</a> It's a non-sequiter.
  • Chris0132Chris0132 Join Date: 2009-07-25 Member: 68262Members
    edited November 2009
    <!--quoteo(post=1735488:date=Nov 2 2009, 07:54 AM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 2 2009, 07:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1735488"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well everything in that picture works a lot better from a style and atmosphere perspective. Bigger skulks are a lot more menacing than the tiny little hotdogs on legs that we had before, and the tight corridor and somewhat claustrophobic feeling you get from that marine POV works a lot better than, say, giant bright orange hallways of Eclipse...

    Like I said, I like the big gun - it feels more like you're actually USING it, not spraying from your hip.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Style and atmosphere are important but if it means everyone has to pack into tiny corridors then I don't think you'll have much time to admire the style and atmosphere because you'll be too busy swearing at the game.

    If you have the skulk vs marine element from NS1 still in the game, you can't do it if the skulk has no room to dodge left and right and jump around. The skulk can be made bigger but you can't get rid of the room to move, otherwise a skulk of any size will be forced to run straight at the marine every time.

    <!--quoteo(post=1735539:date=Nov 2 2009, 04:02 PM:name=monopolowa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (monopolowa @ Nov 2 2009, 04:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1735539"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I also remember reading a while back that the focus will be more on rooms and not on the hallways connecting them (hallways will be much shorter than some of the ones in NS1), so hopefully this will make things a bit less claustrophobic<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Yes that's what I was thinking too, hopefully this corridor section won't actually be in a map because even if it's just connecting a room it's still a bit ripe for camping if the aliens have to go through the tiny gap.

    <!--quoteo(post=1735834:date=Nov 3 2009, 03:22 PM:name=zex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zex @ Nov 3 2009, 03:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1735834"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why are you guys still talking about <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vector_graphics" target="_blank">vector based graphics?</a> It's a non-sequiter.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    All videogame models are vector based, you specify the vertices and then link them with vectors, then fill in the space between the vectors which gives you a polygon.

    You can scale a model to any size and it doesn't become pixellated, only textures are pixel based.
  • zexzex Join Date: 2009-10-07 Member: 68978Members
    edited November 2009
    <!--quoteo(post=1735854:date=Nov 3 2009, 04:36 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Nov 3 2009, 04:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1735854"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->All videogame models are vector based, you specify the vertices and then link them with vectors, then fill in the space between the vectors which gives you a polygon.You can scale a model to any size and it doesn't become pixellated, only textures are pixel based.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Like I keep saying, this true but not relevant to the transormation issues you run into when you try to scale a skinned, rigged, and animated character model. It has nothing whatsoever to do with whether something is pixelated or not. I don't know how to explain it any more clearly so I guess I'll just drop it.
  • NurEinMenschNurEinMensch Join Date: 2003-02-26 Member: 14056Members, Constellation
    Amazing how they are able to scale down models that are further away so they appear smaller on the screen, in real time, without messing anything up. Almost a miracle according to some of you.
  • zexzex Join Date: 2009-10-07 Member: 68978Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1735875:date=Nov 3 2009, 05:39 PM:name=NurEinMensch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NurEinMensch @ Nov 3 2009, 05:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1735875"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Amazing how they are able to scale down models that are further away so they appear smaller on the screen, in real time, without messing anything up. Almost a miracle according to some of you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


    <img src="http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/picard-facepalm.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
  • NurEinMenschNurEinMensch Join Date: 2003-02-26 Member: 14056Members, Constellation
    You realize there isn't really any difference between drawing something smaller on the screen, and drawing something smaller on the screen. The /facepalm is on you.
  • AlignAlign Remain Calm Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5216Forum Moderators, Constellation
    Actually there is a huge difference, and you don't know what you're talking about.
  • JAmazonJAmazon Join Date: 2009-02-21 Member: 66503Members
    I hope this is relevant enough for you zex. I used to do alot of modding back in the day. one thing I remember very vividly was modding HomeWorld2. First of all, everything about the model (light sources, turret positions, origin) was specified by hand using vectors. Second of all (and more relevant) there was a parameter in the configuration file for that specific unit in the game where I could specify "size" and put in any decimal I so chose (1 corresponding to the unity scale of the model in the 3D editor). It then fixed all the rigging and thruster trails and blinking lights and turret offsets by itself based on that one parameter using the simple similarity transformation on all relevant quantities. So it really is as simple as changing one number...
  • monopolowamonopolowa Join Date: 2004-05-23 Member: 28839Members
    Difficult or not, it's something they will need to be able to adjust. I don't understand the point of this debate...
  • blackpiranhablackpiranha Germany Join Date: 2003-03-11 Member: 14375Members, Constellation
    The Devs will resize the models so why discussing it any further?
  • NurEinMenschNurEinMensch Join Date: 2003-02-26 Member: 14056Members, Constellation
    <!--quoteo(post=1735900:date=Nov 3 2009, 08:45 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Nov 3 2009, 08:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1735900"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Actually there is a huge difference, and you don't know what you're talking about.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    <i>Actually</i> no and you're wrong, but you will surely be able to explain what this supposed difference is, since you surely know what you're talking about.





    Or not?
  • zexzex Join Date: 2009-10-07 Member: 68978Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1735921:date=Nov 3 2009, 08:12 PM:name=NurEinMensch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NurEinMensch @ Nov 3 2009, 08:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1735921"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><i>Actually</i> no and you're wrong, but you will surely be able to explain what this supposed difference is, since you surely know what you're talking about.
    Or not?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    The difference between "perspective" and "scale" is so fundamental that no explanation should be necessary. Thus, the proper response is in fact to put ones face in one's palm and marvel at the ignorance implied in the question.
  • Cereal_KillRCereal_KillR Join Date: 2002-10-31 Member: 1837Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1735834:date=Nov 3 2009, 04:22 PM:name=zex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zex @ Nov 3 2009, 04:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1735834"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why are you guys still talking about <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vector_graphics" target="_blank">vector based graphics?</a> It's a non-sequiter.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    From that very link:

    "In 3D computer graphics, vectorized surface representations are most common"
    +
    "Vector graphics editors typically allow rotation, movement, mirroring, <b>stretching</b>, skewing, affine transformations, changing of z-order and combination of primitives into more complex objects."


    I really don't see how a polygon (defined as two points in relation to the first) can be hard to resize: just multiply lengths by the same factor 'a'. As opposed to a full triangle (all the pixels composing a triangle)




    Also, World of Warcraft: Noggenfogger elixir, raid bosses, etc. Guess how long that take to model?
    And in NS, turrets and chambers were larger in 1.0x.
  • AlignAlign Remain Calm Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5216Forum Moderators, Constellation
    edited November 2009
    <!--quoteo(post=1735921:date=Nov 3 2009, 09:12 PM:name=NurEinMensch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NurEinMensch @ Nov 3 2009, 09:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1735921"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><i>Actually</i> no and you're wrong, but you will surely be able to explain what this supposed difference is, since you surely know what you're talking about.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    <a href="http://xs.to" target="_blank"><img src="http://xs745.xs.to/xs745/09452/raytracer772.png" border="0" class="linked-image" /></a>

    Spheres 2 and 3 will take up the same amount of space (number of pixels) on the screen, but only sphere 1 and 2 have the same properties, bar world position of course.
    What you are suggesting is that spheres 2 and 3 are the same, which is insane.
  • JAmazonJAmazon Join Date: 2009-02-21 Member: 66503Members
    I think hes just implying that the projection onto a 2D screen is mathematically similar. Not that the actual geometry is the same.
  • locallyunscenelocallyunscene Feeder of Trolls Join Date: 2002-12-25 Member: 11528Members, Constellation
    <!--quoteo(post=1735935:date=Nov 3 2009, 04:24 PM:name=JAmazon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (JAmazon @ Nov 3 2009, 04:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1735935"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think hes just implying that the projection onto a 2D screen is mathematically similar. Not that the actual geometry is the same.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Which is facetious because you all are talking about resizing a 3d model in a 3D space. I don't know how easy/hard it would be and if they would have to redo animations or textures. Maybe you really can just change a ratio and suddenly it's smaller. There's a lot going on behind the scene in that case though and isn't "just drawing it smaller on your screen".
  • linfosomalinfosoma Join Date: 2009-05-28 Member: 67523Members
    edited November 2009
    Lots of games have cheats that allows you to change the size of characters freely.
    I know for fact (because Im a student for character modeler) that the size of the armature (skeleton) and the mesh itself can be changed itself very easily in-game.

    The only question is how hard will it be to find said code in the Spark engine, but considering all i've read about it Im going to bet that you'll be able to have kitty sized skulks in less than a few lines of code, probably by simply changing an in-game variable too (not in the menu, but in the console duh!).
  • jaminjamin Join Date: 2008-01-03 Member: 63332Members
    Why are we even having this discussion? Even Half life has a scale model tool when compiling (That doesn't mess up animations) all it takes is a line in the .QC file.
    I'm pretty sure Spark will have a tool to do this.
  • NurEinMenschNurEinMensch Join Date: 2003-02-26 Member: 14056Members, Constellation
    <!--quoteo(post=1735935:date=Nov 3 2009, 11:24 PM:name=JAmazon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (JAmazon @ Nov 3 2009, 11:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1735935"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think hes just implying that the projection onto a 2D screen is mathematically similar. Not that the actual geometry is the same.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


    You're on the right track here, while the others are going out of their way in making something that is very simple and straight forward look hard, in an attempt to make their initial claim, that scaling a model is hard, remain valid.

    Which is of course fruitless. A model does not have an inherent size. Size is assigned to it as a property and only starts to become visible when it's translated into the games coordinate system.

    As far as the math is concerned it doesn't matter whether you change the factor of the coordinate translation (scale) or the the position inside the coordinate system (perspective). One is as simple or as hard as the other.
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