<!--quoteo(post=1734478:date=Oct 29 2009, 11:27 PM:name=SentrySteve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SentrySteve @ Oct 29 2009, 11:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1734478"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Constructing long and elaborate sentences to create a novel doesn't make you sound smart or help get your point across.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I prefer reading long and elaborate sentences to 'lol, no u" and empty boasting :D
Also, your post wasn't the shortest of the bunch...
<!--quoteo(post=1734487:date=Oct 30 2009, 08:56 AM:name=snooggums)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (snooggums @ Oct 30 2009, 08:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1734487"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I prefer reading long and elaborate sentences to 'lol, no u" and empty boasting :D<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Clearly, saying "lol, no u" is exactly what I had in mind. You're able to read between the lines <i>very</i> well.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, your post wasn't the shortest of the bunch...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And it sure wasn't the longest... it's almost the perfect length. Thanks bud.
A game lives on by its community. If nothing is done to bring in new players, and retain those new players, then the community stagnates and eventually dies.
I'm hoping that one of the biggest things the UW focuses on with the pre-order money is implementing a very good tutorial or hint system for new players. What would be even better is to tie this system into an online server that updates itself as things change.
It's okay to have a complex game that requires you to learn it, it's definitely not okay if you drop new players into the middle of the traditionally very competitive (and often very harsh, egoistic, and unfriendly) multiplayer world and expect them to learn it on their own. It's very likely that the first thing a new player will experience in NS2 or NS1 is spawning, dying after they step out of the base, then having someone call him a racial or sexual insult.
I'm not advocating dumbing down mechanics, but I am advocating accessibility in the design, and also paying attention to what makes sense or is intuitive. That whole Gorge reverse damage/energy thing is a good example, that brings little to the game and is just another confusing thing for new players, and another thing that will cause veteran players to yell at new players as if it made sense in the first place. After all, shooting something = damage. Even if it's up armoring itself making itself harder to kill it should be damaged.
<!--quoteo(post=1734904:date=Oct 31 2009, 06:47 AM:name=Turtle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Turtle @ Oct 31 2009, 06:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1734904"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not advocating dumbing down mechanics, but I am advocating accessibility in the design, and also paying attention to what makes sense or is intuitive. That whole Gorge reverse damage/energy thing is a good example, that brings little to the game and is just another confusing thing for new players, and another thing that will cause veteran players to yell at new players as if it made sense in the first place. After all, shooting something = damage. Even if it's up armoring itself making itself harder to kill it should be damaged.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think it's pretty obivious how the gorge cover works after a few encouters. As long as the animation is cearly noticeable, it has got pretty clear responsivity. No matter how well the game works, some features are going to mess up newbies a few times. I don't know how the gorge cover is going to serve the gameplay though, but I guess they've got it figured.
If you ask me, NS had a lot more trouble on getting people to understand the situational nature of the game. In general a lot of players don't understand what's their main job is at a certain point and what their options for doing it are. For example marines often passivate when they are supposed to be running by OCs, aliens charge headlong when they are supposed to fall back and play guerilla and so on.
<!--quoteo(post=1734904:date=Oct 31 2009, 06:47 AM:name=Turtle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Turtle @ Oct 31 2009, 06:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1734904"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's okay to have a complex game that requires you to learn it, it's definitely not okay if you drop new players into the middle of the traditionally very competitive (and often very harsh, egoistic, and unfriendly) multiplayer world and expect them to learn it on their own. It's very likely that the first thing a new player will experience in NS2 or NS1 is spawning, dying after they step out of the base, then having someone call him a racial or sexual insult.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Speaking as someone who's just picking up NS, I'll say that the community has mostly been passive, sometimes helpful, and only rarely taken enough notice of me as an individual to be hostile. When I actually talk to people, most of them seem to understand that the game is barely intelligible to new players and don't get mad at me for learning. It probably helps that I know enough not to ninja a bunch of expensive equipment and then run off by myself and die.
My thoughts on this are that on an individual fight basis, NS wasn't very hard. Even my first time playing it, I was able to handle the "marines have ranged and aliens don't" and could figure out what to do based on any individual encounter. I also used alien size as a rough estimate of whether I should shoot something or run away.
However, my single worst noob moment in the game was when I was ramboing around because I had no idea the general flow of the game, after my 2 partners I had been following got killed off, I was left alone in an empty hive. Just then, the base got attacked and the comm decided to relocate to my hive. Oh joy. So the commander puts the chair down and recycles the old base and jumps out, and tells me to get in the chair and get a new base rolling.
I had no idea what I was doing. I get in the chair, have the whole team telling me what I'm supposed to be doing, and I had never even been in the chair before. I couldn't even figure out how to get OUT of the chair. Eventually we lost because I had no idea what I was doing.
The single biggest hurdle for new players is figuring out the flow of the game. This by no means implies I think the flow should be dumbed down, but a nice tech-tree chart with detailed explanations would be great. For the first week while playing, I couldn't figure out why aliens were invisible sometimes, so I was terribly paranoid. I was also reluctant to spend res points on things which seem to have unknown value (what's better: a hive, 3 chambers or a fade?).
Some sort of popup system might help this, but if you think of say, starcraft, they hand-hold you through these complicated tech trees with a single player campaign. If you don't have a campaign, you really need some way to get this information out there. It's not absolutely necessary that you know why you are building this Phase Cannon, but knowing that "Phase Cannons can destroy alien structures by shooting through walls" would at least be more helpful than just listening to comm chatter.
<!--quoteo(post=1730339:date=Oct 2 2009, 11:26 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Oct 2 2009, 11:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1730339"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In NS1 your basic encounter is a marine with low health but a highly accurate and powerful gun, which requires the utmost control and precision to use, being pitted against a small, fast, high-damage alien with a range of mobility skills which require the utmost control and precision to use.
Even unreal tournament isn't that crazy, in unreal tournament most of the guns have infinite clips, slow moving projectiles/broad spreads, or splash damage, any idiot can hit someone else with a rocket launcher or a minigun. In CS all the guns have spreads and you'll get as many kills from random headshots as you will from anything else, in NS you absolutely have to positively be right on otherwise you're dead. This does go away a bit in the later game for marines with shotguns and especially the HMG, and for the aliens the fade acid rockets and onos can be less taxing, but the real important stuff, capturing the ground early on, and the high damage fade and skulk abilities and even lerks, they still require vast amounts of skill to use.
There is no way in hell a new marine would stand any chance against a decent skulk, it's hard enough for good marines to consistently kill skulks, whereas in other games there is always the possibility the new player will get a rocket launcher, or that they'll save up a few rounds with the automatic cash income and buy an AK47.
NS needs things which let new players get into the game and which put less emphasis on skill, or at least on only one kind of skill, which is why things like this which give you considerable bonuses to ease of weapon use in exchange for a bit of forward planning are a good thing. More ways to be good at the game and/or less rewards for being good are neccesary.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1735653:date=Nov 2 2009, 09:50 PM:name=tjosan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tjosan @ Nov 2 2009, 09:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1735653"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So a new marine doesnt stand a chance against a decent skulk, and a new skulk doesnt stand a chance against a decent marine. What's the problem?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS needs things which let new players get into the game and which put less emphasis on skill, or at least on only one kind of skill, which is why things like this which give you considerable bonuses to ease of weapon use in exchange for a bit of forward planning are a good thing. More ways to be good at the game and/or less rewards for being good are neccesary.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The entire point of this thread is how you keep new players. Maybe you missed that part. If you really care about the health of the game, people need to get off their high-horse of 'TEH SKILZ'.
I know what the point of the thread is, I'm not illiterate. As for my point: it seems good players generally beat bad players. I don't see this as a problem, and I think anything that aims at changing this relationship will make the game worse in the end. Remove a piece of why the game is good in the first place or something to that effect. I liked how it was said in the other thread.
<!--quoteo(post=1735655:date=Nov 2 2009, 10:01 PM:name=tjosan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tjosan @ Nov 2 2009, 10:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1735655"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I know what the point of the thread is, I'm not illiterate. As for my point: it seems good players generally beat bad players. I don't see this as a problem, and I think anything that aims at changing this relationship will make the game worse in the end. Remove a piece of why the game is good in the first place or something to that effect. I liked how it was said in the other thread.
Stop being fastidious.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You still are <i>completely</i> missing the point.
He said there needs to be less emphasis on just ONE KIND OF SKILL, which is how NS is now. You all start as skulks and LMG marines, and if you're not good at that, you'll never get more guns or resources. Yes, good players will beat bad players - the point is that if you're a bad player at the ultra-precise bhop twitch aspect of NS's combat, there's not really ###### else you can do. So if I'm bad at that style of combat, I get to spend the entire game getting the ###### kicked out of me.
I mentioned Tribes earlier - I'm not that great at the mouse-whip insta-headshot skill... but I'm absolutely deadly with a jetpack and a spinfusor. One is not any 'MOAR NOOB' than the other, they're just different skill mechanics at work. 80%+ of NS, I'm willing to wager, is just the same skill mechanic over and over.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't see this as a problem, and I think anything that aims at changing this relationship will make the game worse in the end.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Of course it'll make the game worse for some people. Those who ARE good at that skill, and are used to viciously monopolizing other players, are suddenly going to find themselves with stiffer competition that they're unfamiliar with themselves. Why would anyone want the game changed in a way that cheapens an advantage they already hold? It's selfish, elitist, and greedy, but it's how it's always worked in every game that's tried to change gameplay whatsoever.
Being able to aim and being able to position yourself to make the most of yourself whether it be defense or offense on a map. These are universal skills in all FPS (and RTS if you replace aim with micro) which also happen to be the most important factors in NS1. What other types of skill are you talking about?
Or are you perhaps getting the idea that good players should beat bad players as being wrong mixed up with the fact that every skill type is forced onto a few servers for the majority of the lifespan of NS1?
I honestly don't know what you propose other than "make everything really easy for everyone." There are already several support roles available for those not able to actually aim. However, when games are fairly matched, marines who cant aim and skulks who cant land bites do quite equally against one another.
Comments
I prefer reading long and elaborate sentences to 'lol, no u" and empty boasting :D
Also, your post wasn't the shortest of the bunch...
Clearly, saying "lol, no u" is exactly what I had in mind. You're able to read between the lines <i>very</i> well.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, your post wasn't the shortest of the bunch...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And it sure wasn't the longest... it's almost the perfect length. Thanks bud.
I'm hoping that one of the biggest things the UW focuses on with the pre-order money is implementing a very good tutorial or hint system for new players. What would be even better is to tie this system into an online server that updates itself as things change.
It's okay to have a complex game that requires you to learn it, it's definitely not okay if you drop new players into the middle of the traditionally very competitive (and often very harsh, egoistic, and unfriendly) multiplayer world and expect them to learn it on their own. It's very likely that the first thing a new player will experience in NS2 or NS1 is spawning, dying after they step out of the base, then having someone call him a racial or sexual insult.
I'm not advocating dumbing down mechanics, but I am advocating accessibility in the design, and also paying attention to what makes sense or is intuitive. That whole Gorge reverse damage/energy thing is a good example, that brings little to the game and is just another confusing thing for new players, and another thing that will cause veteran players to yell at new players as if it made sense in the first place. After all, shooting something = damage. Even if it's up armoring itself making itself harder to kill it should be damaged.
I think it's pretty obivious how the gorge cover works after a few encouters. As long as the animation is cearly noticeable, it has got pretty clear responsivity. No matter how well the game works, some features are going to mess up newbies a few times. I don't know how the gorge cover is going to serve the gameplay though, but I guess they've got it figured.
If you ask me, NS had a lot more trouble on getting people to understand the situational nature of the game. In general a lot of players don't understand what's their main job is at a certain point and what their options for doing it are. For example marines often passivate when they are supposed to be running by OCs, aliens charge headlong when they are supposed to fall back and play guerilla and so on.
Speaking as someone who's just picking up NS, I'll say that the community has mostly been passive, sometimes helpful, and only rarely taken enough notice of me as an individual to be hostile. When I actually talk to people, most of them seem to understand that the game is barely intelligible to new players and don't get mad at me for learning. It probably helps that I know enough not to ninja a bunch of expensive equipment and then run off by myself and die.
But yeah, you die. A lot.
However, my single worst noob moment in the game was when I was ramboing around because I had no idea the general flow of the game, after my 2 partners I had been following got killed off, I was left alone in an empty hive. Just then, the base got attacked and the comm decided to relocate to my hive. Oh joy. So the commander puts the chair down and recycles the old base and jumps out, and tells me to get in the chair and get a new base rolling.
I had no idea what I was doing. I get in the chair, have the whole team telling me what I'm supposed to be doing, and I had never even been in the chair before. I couldn't even figure out how to get OUT of the chair. Eventually we lost because I had no idea what I was doing.
The single biggest hurdle for new players is figuring out the flow of the game. This by no means implies I think the flow should be dumbed down, but a nice tech-tree chart with detailed explanations would be great. For the first week while playing, I couldn't figure out why aliens were invisible sometimes, so I was terribly paranoid. I was also reluctant to spend res points on things which seem to have unknown value (what's better: a hive, 3 chambers or a fade?).
Some sort of popup system might help this, but if you think of say, starcraft, they hand-hold you through these complicated tech trees with a single player campaign. If you don't have a campaign, you really need some way to get this information out there. It's not absolutely necessary that you know why you are building this Phase Cannon, but knowing that "Phase Cannons can destroy alien structures by shooting through walls" would at least be more helpful than just listening to comm chatter.
<!--quoteo(post=1730339:date=Oct 2 2009, 11:26 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Oct 2 2009, 11:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1730339"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In NS1 your basic encounter is a marine with low health but a highly accurate and powerful gun, which requires the utmost control and precision to use, being pitted against a small, fast, high-damage alien with a range of mobility skills which require the utmost control and precision to use.
Even unreal tournament isn't that crazy, in unreal tournament most of the guns have infinite clips, slow moving projectiles/broad spreads, or splash damage, any idiot can hit someone else with a rocket launcher or a minigun. In CS all the guns have spreads and you'll get as many kills from random headshots as you will from anything else, in NS you absolutely have to positively be right on otherwise you're dead. This does go away a bit in the later game for marines with shotguns and especially the HMG, and for the aliens the fade acid rockets and onos can be less taxing, but the real important stuff, capturing the ground early on, and the high damage fade and skulk abilities and even lerks, they still require vast amounts of skill to use.
There is no way in hell a new marine would stand any chance against a decent skulk, it's hard enough for good marines to consistently kill skulks, whereas in other games there is always the possibility the new player will get a rocket launcher, or that they'll save up a few rounds with the automatic cash income and buy an AK47.
NS needs things which let new players get into the game and which put less emphasis on skill, or at least on only one kind of skill, which is why things like this which give you considerable bonuses to ease of weapon use in exchange for a bit of forward planning are a good thing. More ways to be good at the game and/or less rewards for being good are neccesary.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS needs things which let new players get into the game and which put less emphasis on skill, or at least on only one kind of skill, which is why things like this which give you considerable bonuses to ease of weapon use in exchange for a bit of forward planning are a good thing. More ways to be good at the game and/or less rewards for being good are neccesary.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The entire point of this thread is how you keep new players. Maybe you missed that part. If you really care about the health of the game, people need to get off their high-horse of 'TEH SKILZ'.
Stop being fastidious.
Stop being fastidious.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You still are <i>completely</i> missing the point.
He said there needs to be less emphasis on just ONE KIND OF SKILL, which is how NS is now. You all start as skulks and LMG marines, and if you're not good at that, you'll never get more guns or resources. Yes, good players will beat bad players - the point is that if you're a bad player at the ultra-precise bhop twitch aspect of NS's combat, there's not really ###### else you can do. So if I'm bad at that style of combat, I get to spend the entire game getting the ###### kicked out of me.
I mentioned Tribes earlier - I'm not that great at the mouse-whip insta-headshot skill... but I'm absolutely deadly with a jetpack and a spinfusor. One is not any 'MOAR NOOB' than the other, they're just different skill mechanics at work. 80%+ of NS, I'm willing to wager, is just the same skill mechanic over and over.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't see this as a problem, and I think anything that aims at changing this relationship will make the game worse in the end.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Of course it'll make the game worse for some people. Those who ARE good at that skill, and are used to viciously monopolizing other players, are suddenly going to find themselves with stiffer competition that they're unfamiliar with themselves. Why would anyone want the game changed in a way that cheapens an advantage they already hold? It's selfish, elitist, and greedy, but it's how it's always worked in every game that's tried to change gameplay whatsoever.
Or are you perhaps getting the idea that good players should beat bad players as being wrong mixed up with the fact that every skill type is forced onto a few servers for the majority of the lifespan of NS1?
I honestly don't know what you propose other than "make everything really easy for everyone." There are already several support roles available for those not able to actually aim. However, when games are fairly matched, marines who cant aim and skulks who cant land bites do quite equally against one another.