<!--quoteo(post=1731486:date=Oct 8 2009, 10:59 PM:name=Sirot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sirot @ Oct 8 2009, 10:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1731486"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Actually, I like this point a lot. Kudos.
I just want NS2 to lose some of the weird things it had going on, like the chamber system and replace it with something more interesting and more intuitive. Win - win for everyone.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
what do you mean? I loved the chamber concept! It is one of the many unique elements that seperate the marines from the aliens. Though it will be harder for one newb player to mess up by dropping the wrong chamber (what is see as the only draw back) due to the alien commander.
I am still a crappy player though I have been around awhile. If this game didn't have that extra layer of skill you could peel back it wouldn't have lasted this long and have such a strong community/player base. You can make things only so intuitive before you have to rely on the players common sense.
On another note all of you that hate aliens or think they are hard to learn, what exactly do you mean? First time I died I figured out a direct assualt didn't work. Ambushes were the name of the game. Second time I died ambushing because I couldn't get that third bite off, noticed people parasite then bite twice. Bingo! 5 minutes later I had a great time! I don't mind a challenge. Players who quit after one game aren't the players I want to play with. NS can no be properly appreciated in one game.
While the chamber system was nice because it provided a hard asymmetry for the marine's way of building, it was an extremely clunky and ultimately unenjoyable system. I will honestly be gravely disappointed if it stays in place... though it seems like it won't be returning by the looks of it, since the gorge now drops combat only chambers.
<!--quoteo(post=1731297:date=Oct 7 2009, 09:09 PM:name=homicide)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (homicide @ Oct 7 2009, 09:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1731297"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ridiculous amount of resources have been put into "making NS2 newb friendly." How about we first concentrate on making the game awesome? Great game concepts are created with gameplay at the forefront. LASTLY, their design and implementation should be as simply and intuitive as possible.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Things tend to work better when you plan them out beforehand and make everything to work with everything else.
If you design something you think is awesome and then spend half an hour at the end trying to make it noob friendly you'll probably find you can't, and similarly if you spend your time designing something noob friendly and then try to make it into a game you will probably end up with a rather bland game.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1731531:date=Oct 9 2009, 09:31 AM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Oct 9 2009, 09:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1731531"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Things tend to work better when you plan them out beforehand and make everything to work with everything else.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Agree. <!--quoteo(post=1731531:date=Oct 9 2009, 09:31 AM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Oct 9 2009, 09:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1731531"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you design something you think is awesome and then spend half an hour at the end trying to make it noob friendly you'll probably find you can't, and similarly if you spend your time designing something noob friendly and then try to make it into a game you will probably end up with a rather bland game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Disagree. <!--quoteo(post=1731531:date=Oct 9 2009, 09:31 AM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Oct 9 2009, 09:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1731531"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Do both together.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Agree.
<!--quoteo(post=1731297:date=Oct 7 2009, 04:09 PM:name=homicide)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (homicide @ Oct 7 2009, 04:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1731297"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>The "NS is bad for new players" theory is WAY overplayed.</b> The fact that you are posting this topic makes you a hypocrite.
1) Most new players are INTRIGUED by the complexity, not turned off 2) New players expect to get dominated when they first join 3) You don't have to bhop to start the game 4) You don't even have to aim well to play the game 5) Most of the skills found in NS are mirrored in many other FPS games, there is a HUGE playbase for these skills 6) There is a lot more to NS than getting kills 7) Even a horrible player can spore lerk 8) Even a horrible player can kill LMGs as fade 9) Even a horrible player can kill marines as Onos 10) Even a horrible player can stand in a mob of marines 11) Most people are still horrible at NS1 12) NS2 will be a new game, EVERYONE will be horrible
I guarantee new players in MANY of the most popular multiplayer games will get DOMINATED the first time they play. NS has MORE THAN ENOUGH options to allow TERRIBLE players to beat AMAZING players. It is absolutely ludicrous to expect current day NS1, a 6 year old game full of stubbornly experienced players, to remain a new player friendly environment.
Ridiculous amount of resources have been put into "making NS2 newb friendly." How about we first concentrate on making the game awesome? Great game concepts are created with gameplay at the forefront. LASTLY, their design and implementation should be as simply and intuitive as possible.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1731531:date=Oct 9 2009, 01:31 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Oct 9 2009, 01:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1731531"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Things tend to work better when you plan them out beforehand and make everything to work with everything else.
If you design something you think is awesome and then spend half an hour at the end trying to make it noob friendly you'll probably find you can't, and similarly if you spend your time designing something noob friendly and then try to make it into a game you will probably end up with a rather bland game.
Do both together.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Where to start... <!--quoteo(post=1730920:date=Oct 5 2009, 10:46 PM:name=xmaine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xmaine @ Oct 5 2009, 10:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1730920"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A) If a new commander got in the chair, he would get booted out within 30 seconds. How would the new commander be able to get better if all the pubbers, veterans, and competitive players always boot him out?
B) Everybody seems to focused in on winning and not so much on gameplay. New/bad players would not be able to have any fun because of some commander not willing to give out lifeforms because his focus is to give all the lifeforms to all the good people and bam, expect to win like that whereas the new player is given the freedom to do whatever he wants with his res possibly contributing to the team by some well known noob tactics: Early onos Paper fade death: cause marines to waste money on guns and ups early on. Lerk Gassing Putting ocs in places Much like so in NS1.
C) No one wants a chore, people want a game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> A) People get booted from the chair cause other people hate them. drop guns meds and get a mic
B) Some people want to win the game, your point? The most common way to win the game is through said "gameplay" That list of N00B T@(T|&5 is perfectly legitimate "gameplay" strateges that usually lead to the win. Many of those mentioned are core "gameplay" mechanics.
<b>you've just complained that no one cares about gameplay, then called those that do noobs</b> Casualties: Chambers(ocs), Fades, Onoses, lerks gas attack, Guns, Upgrades,
I think thats most of them noobs, but I would have added: skulks, marines, fun.
C) Well doing your chores is part of being on the team. I take it you don't like gorges, you've already stated you don't like upgrades, and the whole idea of building the ip must be terrible. But were would we be if no one build the phase gate?
Now that I've flamed you post in an equaly long post, I think this whole thread should be buried along with every other thread about implementing nukeular bombs
<!--quoteo(post=1731492:date=Oct 9 2009, 07:06 AM:name=Sirot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sirot @ Oct 9 2009, 07:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1731492"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->While the chamber system was nice because it provided a hard asymmetry for the marine's way of building, it was an extremely clunky and ultimately unenjoyable system. I will honestly be gravely disappointed if it stays in place... though it seems like it won't be returning by the looks of it, since the gorge now drops combat only chambers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have a totally different experience than you, then. The chamber system felt quite naturally to me.
<!--quoteo(post=1731818:date=Oct 12 2009, 07:22 PM:name=ghost in the shell)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghost in the shell @ Oct 12 2009, 07:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1731818"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Where to start...
A) People get booted from the chair cause other people hate them. drop guns meds and get a mic
B) Some people want to win the game, your point? The most common way to win the game is through said "gameplay" That list of N00B T@(T|&5 is perfectly legitimate "gameplay" strateges that usually lead to the win. Many of those mentioned are core "gameplay" mechanics.
<b>you've just complained that no one cares about gameplay, then called those that do noobs</b> Casualties: Chambers(ocs), Fades, Onoses, lerks gas attack, Guns, Upgrades,
I think thats most of them noobs, but I would have added: skulks, marines, fun.
C) Well doing your chores is part of being on the team. I take it you don't like gorges, you've already stated you don't like upgrades, and the whole idea of building the ip must be terrible. But were would we be if no one build the phase gate?
Now that I've flamed you post in an equaly long post, I think this whole thread should be buried along with every other thread about implementing nukeular bombs<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Comments
I just want NS2 to lose some of the weird things it had going on, like the chamber system and replace it with something more interesting and more intuitive. Win - win for everyone.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
what do you mean? I loved the chamber concept! It is one of the many unique elements that seperate the marines from the aliens. Though it will be harder for one newb player to mess up by dropping the wrong chamber (what is see as the only draw back) due to the alien commander.
I am still a crappy player though I have been around awhile. If this game didn't have that extra layer of skill you could peel back it wouldn't have lasted this long and have such a strong community/player base. You can make things only so intuitive before you have to rely on the players common sense.
On another note all of you that hate aliens or think they are hard to learn, what exactly do you mean? First time I died I figured out a direct assualt didn't work. Ambushes were the name of the game. Second time I died ambushing because I couldn't get that third bite off, noticed people parasite then bite twice. Bingo! 5 minutes later I had a great time! I don't mind a challenge. Players who quit after one game aren't the players I want to play with. NS can no be properly appreciated in one game.
Things tend to work better when you plan them out beforehand and make everything to work with everything else.
If you design something you think is awesome and then spend half an hour at the end trying to make it noob friendly you'll probably find you can't, and similarly if you spend your time designing something noob friendly and then try to make it into a game you will probably end up with a rather bland game.
Do both together.
Agree.
<!--quoteo(post=1731531:date=Oct 9 2009, 09:31 AM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Oct 9 2009, 09:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1731531"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you design something you think is awesome and then spend half an hour at the end trying to make it noob friendly you'll probably find you can't, and similarly if you spend your time designing something noob friendly and then try to make it into a game you will probably end up with a rather bland game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Disagree.
<!--quoteo(post=1731531:date=Oct 9 2009, 09:31 AM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Oct 9 2009, 09:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1731531"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Do both together.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agree.
1) Most new players are INTRIGUED by the complexity, not turned off
2) New players expect to get dominated when they first join
3) You don't have to bhop to start the game
4) You don't even have to aim well to play the game
5) Most of the skills found in NS are mirrored in many other FPS games, there is a HUGE playbase for these skills
6) There is a lot more to NS than getting kills
7) Even a horrible player can spore lerk
8) Even a horrible player can kill LMGs as fade
9) Even a horrible player can kill marines as Onos
10) Even a horrible player can stand in a mob of marines
11) Most people are still horrible at NS1
12) NS2 will be a new game, EVERYONE will be horrible
I guarantee new players in MANY of the most popular multiplayer games will get DOMINATED the first time they play. NS has MORE THAN ENOUGH options to allow TERRIBLE players to beat AMAZING players. It is absolutely ludicrous to expect current day NS1, a 6 year old game full of stubbornly experienced players, to remain a new player friendly environment.
Ridiculous amount of resources have been put into "making NS2 newb friendly." How about we first concentrate on making the game awesome? Great game concepts are created with gameplay at the forefront. LASTLY, their design and implementation should be as simply and intuitive as possible.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<img src="http://www.abload.de/img/1253650536779w616.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
If you design something you think is awesome and then spend half an hour at the end trying to make it noob friendly you'll probably find you can't, and similarly if you spend your time designing something noob friendly and then try to make it into a game you will probably end up with a rather bland game.
Do both together.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Instinct > Plan
Why? Its obvious
obviously..
<!--quoteo(post=1730920:date=Oct 5 2009, 10:46 PM:name=xmaine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xmaine @ Oct 5 2009, 10:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1730920"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A)
If a new commander got in the chair, he would get booted out within 30 seconds. How would the new commander be able to get better if all the pubbers, veterans, and competitive players always boot him out?
B)
Everybody seems to focused in on winning and not so much on gameplay. New/bad players would not be able to have any fun because of some commander not willing to give out lifeforms because his focus is to give all the lifeforms to all the good people and bam, expect to win like that whereas the new player is given the freedom to do whatever he wants with his res possibly contributing to the team by some well known noob tactics:
Early onos
Paper fade death: cause marines to waste money on guns and ups early on.
Lerk Gassing
Putting ocs in places
Much like so in NS1.
C)
No one wants a chore, people want a game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A) People get booted from the chair cause other people hate them. drop guns meds and get a mic
B) Some people want to win the game, your point? The most common way to win the game is through said "gameplay"
That list of N00B T@(T|&5 is perfectly legitimate "gameplay" strateges that usually lead to the win. Many of those mentioned are core "gameplay" mechanics.
<b>you've just complained that no one cares about gameplay, then called those that do noobs</b>
Casualties:
Chambers(ocs),
Fades,
Onoses,
lerks gas attack,
Guns,
Upgrades,
I think thats most of them noobs,
but I would have added:
skulks,
marines,
fun.
C) Well doing your chores is part of being on the team. I take it you don't like gorges, you've already stated you don't like upgrades, and the whole idea of building the ip must be terrible. But were would we be if no one build the phase gate?
Now that I've flamed you post in an equaly long post, I think this whole thread should be buried along with every other thread about implementing nukeular bombs
I have a totally different experience than you, then. The chamber system felt quite naturally to me.
A) People get booted from the chair cause other people hate them. drop guns meds and get a mic
B) Some people want to win the game, your point? The most common way to win the game is through said "gameplay"
That list of N00B T@(T|&5 is perfectly legitimate "gameplay" strateges that usually lead to the win. Many of those mentioned are core "gameplay" mechanics.
<b>you've just complained that no one cares about gameplay, then called those that do noobs</b>
Casualties:
Chambers(ocs),
Fades,
Onoses,
lerks gas attack,
Guns,
Upgrades,
I think thats most of them noobs,
but I would have added:
skulks,
marines,
fun.
C) Well doing your chores is part of being on the team. I take it you don't like gorges, you've already stated you don't like upgrades, and the whole idea of building the ip must be terrible. But were would we be if no one build the phase gate?
Now that I've flamed you post in an equaly long post, I think this whole thread should be buried along with every other thread about implementing nukeular bombs<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
-snip-