Leap (as secondary fire) and Parasiting
StixNStonz
Join Date: 2006-11-06 Member: 58439Members, Reinforced - Shadow
Join Date: 2006-11-06 Member: 58439Members, Reinforced - Shadow
My suggestion for skulk secondary fire:
ALL secondary fires for Skulk are Leap.
Just like how every worthwhile player in NS1 bound mouse2 to +movement, and always had leap / blink on their mouse2 once they had 2 hives. Please, please, please keep this model, by trying this suggestion. It drastically lowers the learning curve for the ability, and simply makes all players able to use it for awesome combat!
And with whatever other abilities are available for the skulk, he'll always have Leap ready. If para is kept in, skulks will be able to leap in, para, and leap out, just like in NS1 where it is such amazing gameplay.
My suggestion for parasite:
I highly recommend keeping it in, at least in some form.
If you want to integrate the Alien Comm that much, make it so only he can see Para. Perhaps all aliens can see Paras, but the alien comm can see exactly what kind of marine it is, with what gun, etc.
Hell, even give the alien comm an ability to do something with a parasited marine. Something like: be able to take over a parasited marine's view for 3 seconds, and only able to use this ability once every 2 minutes. So the alien comm can see para'd marines on a map or such, see one that's in a marine base, take him over (which freezes that marine's controls), look around (just turning, no movements or actions) and then lose control. Since he can only do this somewhat rarely and it only effects one para'd marine, it's almost like a Scan. That marine would probably flip out over the mic, telling the comm he'd just been 'farsighted' or whatnot.
Thoughts?
ALL secondary fires for Skulk are Leap.
Just like how every worthwhile player in NS1 bound mouse2 to +movement, and always had leap / blink on their mouse2 once they had 2 hives. Please, please, please keep this model, by trying this suggestion. It drastically lowers the learning curve for the ability, and simply makes all players able to use it for awesome combat!
And with whatever other abilities are available for the skulk, he'll always have Leap ready. If para is kept in, skulks will be able to leap in, para, and leap out, just like in NS1 where it is such amazing gameplay.
My suggestion for parasite:
I highly recommend keeping it in, at least in some form.
If you want to integrate the Alien Comm that much, make it so only he can see Para. Perhaps all aliens can see Paras, but the alien comm can see exactly what kind of marine it is, with what gun, etc.
Hell, even give the alien comm an ability to do something with a parasited marine. Something like: be able to take over a parasited marine's view for 3 seconds, and only able to use this ability once every 2 minutes. So the alien comm can see para'd marines on a map or such, see one that's in a marine base, take him over (which freezes that marine's controls), look around (just turning, no movements or actions) and then lose control. Since he can only do this somewhat rarely and it only effects one para'd marine, it's almost like a Scan. That marine would probably flip out over the mic, telling the comm he'd just been 'farsighted' or whatnot.
Thoughts?
Comments
Anyway, I suggested an "evolved" parasite in the Skulk thread. The developers said they wanted a provoke ability, and it'll most likely be ranged. No matter how they do it, it'll end up being a parasite copy.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you shoot the stomach, the marine becomes sligthly damaged like the NS1 parasite
If you shoot the arms, the marine's aim would become slightly impaired(thus making it a little harder to aim)
If you shoot the legs, the marine will be unable to jump OR walk/run a little slower for a short time
If you shoot the head, the marine would get a "flashbang" sort of effect (perhaps make some parts of the screen infestion-like(something like an onos stomach). This effect would fade away after no more than 1 second and maybe make the marine get a SLIGHTLY dizzy and unclear vision for a very small time after the parasite. This would be great for confusing the enemy, ambushing and also for retreating. This would not be too imbalanced, since it requires skill to aim to the head(and the effect doesn't last very long anyway). It'd also encourage teamwork. Imagine a skulk parasiting the head of a marine from afar while another skulk moves in for the kill. Marines would be more likely to stay in groups.
Of course, it might even be too hard to aim at the head to prove useful, but it's an interesting feature.
To balance, parasite has a small cooldown. (1 second or so)
Making the cooldown too long would make the ability useless if the player misses.
I know "disabling abilities" are usually frowned upon but I think this would be very interesting, and the effects aren't that major and doesn't last very long. This would be interesting, encourage teamwork and require skill.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bingo.
Why would you need to nerf the skulk, too hard with 3 keys?
I think the +movement system is best because it gives a basic implementation that is easy to use and whose use does not depend on other class mechanics. I think we can all agree that +movement made a much more significant difference for blinking than it did for the onos or skulk. For the fade, movement could be achieved with one bind while meta/swipe could be managed with lastinv and attack.
No matter what the initial weapon design is, there will be changes in the future and having leap usability mixed up in the problem will not be good.
That aside, I still think having a bite at the end of the leap is problematic too. Sometimes you won't want to bite at the end of a leap, to conserve energy, and the cost of the bite will have to be factored in because it certainly can't be given for free ( in terms of current NS costs ).
It's easy to second guess the +movement key and say it was an added kludge, but I really agree it's one of the more elegant solutions to come out of NS1. In a game where movement abilities are so important, it makes sense to give it its own key. I hope that instead of removing the need for fade to blink/meta/swipe, the devs improve the other lifeforms to have similar interactive abilities. I suggest the skulk has leap/charge/bite. I don't want to bring back 1 hit kills like the Focus thread rails against, but just give the skulk an added damage modifier to the next attack at the cost of adren. It's a simple tradeoff, you can put more power into your first attack, but you'll be at more of a disadvantage if you miss.
<!--quoteo(post=1721869:date=Aug 10 2009, 03:18 PM:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (puzl @ Aug 10 2009, 03:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1721869"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That aside, I still think having a bite at the end of the leap is problematic too. Sometimes you won't want to bite at the end of a leap, to conserve energy, and the cost of the bite will have to be factored in because it certainly can't be given for free ( in terms of current NS costs ).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Honestly, I only want to bite maybe 10% of the time I leap. Also, the best attack leaps are where you bite the marine but also manage to preserve momentum, forcing the marine to make a 180. This would be hard to do if the timing of the bite was chosen for you. This is one reason why leap/bite scripts didn't catch on even before +mvt.
This. I can't see how it's too difficult to land a manual bite as long as you've got +movement or some similar system that allows you to leap without deselecting the actual bite attack.
for me it would be ok to have bite (+ leap as alt fire) +hive 1 ability (+ alt fire?) at hive 1. but leap should be in any case boundable to some extra key.
well, I guess everyone agrees on this +movement binding :)
Honestly, I only want to bite maybe 10% of the time I leap. Also, the best attack leaps are where you bite the marine but also manage to preserve momentum, forcing the marine to make a 180. This would be hard to do if the timing of the bite was chosen for you. This is one reason why leap/bite scripts didn't catch on even before +mvt.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wouldn't call it the design of +movement a kludge because for a long time it was felt that the need to script leap/blink etc. was not a good place for the game to be in and we set about ( mainly tankefugl ) figuring out a way to have it on its own command while still available from the weapon slot system.
The implementation was very kludgey because we had to provide a command that integrated into the weapon slot system and there were problems with, for example, ensuring the use of +movement didn't upset your lastinv history. There were also some major issues ensuring client/server syncing of the command and associated events were correct.
But anyway, I totally agree that leap/bite scripting was completely pointless and it had nothing to do with the complexity of scripting, but the fact that the use of bite at the end of a leap was dependent on so many things. Even if you could get over the variable timing requirements it still wouldn't have been very effective ( especially when compared with the ease of leap->bite with +movement ).
If by leap/charge/bite you are suggesting some kind of charge that builds while the skulk leaps through the air, then I like the idea but I'd prefer the charged bite to be on bite alt-fire and require a small charge time.
as long as you hold down the alt fire button (and dont change your weapon slot), even when you are already at the maximum charge value, it will consume your energy. So if you do it too early -> no energy left for leaping. Then just release the alt fire button when you arrived at your destination (the poor marine).
This system would already make it necessary that leap is implemented as it currently is in NS1, accessible through a weapon slot (which is even optional) and through a bind with +movement, otherwise you would have to change your weapon slot and interrupt the charging proccess.
balancing factors:
- maximum charge value (damage modifier)
- energy consumation
as long as you hold down the alt fire button (and don't change your weapon slot), even when you are already at the maximum charge value, it will consume your energy. So if you do it too early -> no energy left for leaping. Then just release the alt fire button when you arrived at your destination (the poor marine).
This system would already make it necessary that leap is implemented as it currently is in NS1, accessible through a weapon slot (which is even optional) and through a bind with +movement, otherwise you would have to change your weapon slot and interrupt the charging process.
balancing factors:
- maximum charge value (damage modifier)
- energy consumption<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah you got it. That's why I started out with the comparison to fade gameplay and separated it from what I had to say about bite on leap. Sorry if it wasn't clear.
Again I agree +mvt wasn't a kludge and was needed for NS1. I was hoping to convey that the NS2 devs should not view +mvt as something <i>only</i> useful in NS1 because the unique and desired attack style of the fade is much improved by +mvt. Therefore that they should try adding similar abilities to meta other movement based classes to maintain +mvt.
I suggested "charge" because I don't want every lifeform to have self heal metabolize, just supporting abilities that will be useful in battle. One thing that this charge ability lacks though, is the ability to be useful <i>outside</i> of battle. I would like to hear suggestions for that.
It's in the most recent tweet which has been up for 3 days.
<a href="http://twitter.com/NS2/statuses/3186652416" target="_blank">Here is an explicit link</a> if you're having trouble viewing the main page.
Sure it is, but tapping right-click as opposed to R can make a world of difference in both the learning curve and use of Leap and Blink.
I mean, imagine if +attack was bound to F? Somehow I can't imagine the game would be as fun.
It does.
"Reload / Alien Movement"
<!--quoteo(post=1722517:date=Aug 13 2009, 08:33 AM:name=StixNStonz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (StixNStonz @ Aug 13 2009, 08:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1722517"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sure it is, but tapping right-click as opposed to R can make a world of difference in both the learning curve and use of Leap and Blink.
I mean, imagine if +attack was bound to F? Somehow I can't imagine the game would be as fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But this isn't an argument for replacing the alternative attack with leap, it's an argument to have the standard +movementbind on the right mousebutton.