The Death of Heavy Armor
Sirot
Join Date: 2006-12-03 Member: 58851Members
Join Date: 2006-12-03 Member: 58851Members
<div class="IPBDescription">and why we shouldn't care.</div>Recently, the developers said this on their twitter:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Working heavy armor back into the tech tree. We had been thinking about removing it for cost reasons but we keep hearing you want it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This update caused a large reaction from the community. It was a mix of nostalgia for HA (heavy armor) and e-disgust that the developers thought of removing HA in the first place. People attributed HA to be one of the signature features of NS1 (Natural Selection) and hell, the logo for UWE (Unknown World Entertainment) is a heavy armored marine holding a flag. Those people are not wrong to hold such high regard for HA in NS1. However, what I am going to argue is that HA has no place in NS2. The gameplay environment that made HA great will not longer be there.
Heavy armor is a very boring piece of equipment. It provides three functions: increasing armor dramatically, reducing movement speed slightly and providing immunity to spores. It essentially increases survivability at a fairly hefty cost of 40 resources and research required from the prototype lab. The nostalgia we are all getting is from (in my opinion) the actual squad behavior it encourages. It makes sense for marines to stick together to maintain each others armor with welders. Normally, sending a bunch of unarmored marines with welders would often result all of them killed and the resources that were spent for welders lost. This is not the case since with HA, a marine is actually quite likely to survive an encounter and warrant welder treatment. The end result is a squad of armored marines walking through dark corridors exterminating the hives with the aliens doing their best to stop you. That was awesome and the “Heavy Train†made for great memories.
I said earlier that HA has no place in NS2. I stand by that and will cite three major changes that in my opinion, marginalize HA too much to warrant the real life monetary cost of implanting this piece of equipment into the game: code, art and all.
<b>Change 1:</b> Commander(s) no longer responsible for equipment.
<!--quoteo(post=1704756:date=Apr 11 2009, 06:43 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Apr 11 2009, 06:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1704756"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Fyi, Commanders don't drop weapons for players any more. … The commander is responsible for researching weapons though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->The resource model is now unified among the two factions. The commander has his own pool of resources and individual players on the ground (alien or marine) have their own personal pool to equip/evolve themselves. The commander is still responsible for technology research and the economy, but marine equips themselves by straddling over to the armory and buying what they need. The commander will need to actually convince players to save for a certain equipment loadout instead of arbitrary holding back purchasing by denying stuff to the marines until the moment is right. This essentially makes it a lot more difficult to equip a good portion of players in HA to create a Heavy Train. It would still be possible to organize one, but I don’t think it will be as effective. This brings me to my second point…
<b>Change 2:</b> Marines buy their own weapons.
<!--quoteo(post=1704756:date=Apr 11 2009, 06:43 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Apr 11 2009, 06:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1704756"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->… Players on the ground buy their own weapons at an armory. …<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->The new resource system isn’t just going to make Heavy Trains less common, it is also going to make them a lot less effective. NS2 is going to be balanced very differently from NS1 because it will assume that marines on average will be better equipped. Outfitting marines no longer means the commander has to set up building resource towers or researching upgrades. There isn’t going to be that economical weight and rarity associated with marine equipment anymore. It would only make sense to reduce the strength of their equipment overall.
<b>Change 2:</b> Squads and infantry portals.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Charlie finished basic squad spawning. You can +use the infantry portal to spawn near the last squad you were in.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->This is the biggest ender to the HA for me and that is the fact that you will no longer need it to have an authentic squad experience. Marines are going to already have a very tangible benefit to moving together and that is being to be reinforced remotely. It does not matter if you live or die, but as long as at least one person lives. You no longer need a exorbitant amount of armor to survive the long walk to the hive in the game.
I believe that Heavy Armor will have no place in NS2. The already uninteresting on paper HA is going to be less effective and heavy trains are going to be less common in addition will no longer need to be “heavyâ€. That said, I would love of a re-imagining of the Heavy Armor because space marines in power armor is pretty awesome.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Working heavy armor back into the tech tree. We had been thinking about removing it for cost reasons but we keep hearing you want it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This update caused a large reaction from the community. It was a mix of nostalgia for HA (heavy armor) and e-disgust that the developers thought of removing HA in the first place. People attributed HA to be one of the signature features of NS1 (Natural Selection) and hell, the logo for UWE (Unknown World Entertainment) is a heavy armored marine holding a flag. Those people are not wrong to hold such high regard for HA in NS1. However, what I am going to argue is that HA has no place in NS2. The gameplay environment that made HA great will not longer be there.
Heavy armor is a very boring piece of equipment. It provides three functions: increasing armor dramatically, reducing movement speed slightly and providing immunity to spores. It essentially increases survivability at a fairly hefty cost of 40 resources and research required from the prototype lab. The nostalgia we are all getting is from (in my opinion) the actual squad behavior it encourages. It makes sense for marines to stick together to maintain each others armor with welders. Normally, sending a bunch of unarmored marines with welders would often result all of them killed and the resources that were spent for welders lost. This is not the case since with HA, a marine is actually quite likely to survive an encounter and warrant welder treatment. The end result is a squad of armored marines walking through dark corridors exterminating the hives with the aliens doing their best to stop you. That was awesome and the “Heavy Train†made for great memories.
I said earlier that HA has no place in NS2. I stand by that and will cite three major changes that in my opinion, marginalize HA too much to warrant the real life monetary cost of implanting this piece of equipment into the game: code, art and all.
<b>Change 1:</b> Commander(s) no longer responsible for equipment.
<!--quoteo(post=1704756:date=Apr 11 2009, 06:43 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Apr 11 2009, 06:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1704756"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Fyi, Commanders don't drop weapons for players any more. … The commander is responsible for researching weapons though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->The resource model is now unified among the two factions. The commander has his own pool of resources and individual players on the ground (alien or marine) have their own personal pool to equip/evolve themselves. The commander is still responsible for technology research and the economy, but marine equips themselves by straddling over to the armory and buying what they need. The commander will need to actually convince players to save for a certain equipment loadout instead of arbitrary holding back purchasing by denying stuff to the marines until the moment is right. This essentially makes it a lot more difficult to equip a good portion of players in HA to create a Heavy Train. It would still be possible to organize one, but I don’t think it will be as effective. This brings me to my second point…
<b>Change 2:</b> Marines buy their own weapons.
<!--quoteo(post=1704756:date=Apr 11 2009, 06:43 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Apr 11 2009, 06:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1704756"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->… Players on the ground buy their own weapons at an armory. …<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->The new resource system isn’t just going to make Heavy Trains less common, it is also going to make them a lot less effective. NS2 is going to be balanced very differently from NS1 because it will assume that marines on average will be better equipped. Outfitting marines no longer means the commander has to set up building resource towers or researching upgrades. There isn’t going to be that economical weight and rarity associated with marine equipment anymore. It would only make sense to reduce the strength of their equipment overall.
<b>Change 2:</b> Squads and infantry portals.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Charlie finished basic squad spawning. You can +use the infantry portal to spawn near the last squad you were in.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->This is the biggest ender to the HA for me and that is the fact that you will no longer need it to have an authentic squad experience. Marines are going to already have a very tangible benefit to moving together and that is being to be reinforced remotely. It does not matter if you live or die, but as long as at least one person lives. You no longer need a exorbitant amount of armor to survive the long walk to the hive in the game.
I believe that Heavy Armor will have no place in NS2. The already uninteresting on paper HA is going to be less effective and heavy trains are going to be less common in addition will no longer need to be “heavyâ€. That said, I would love of a re-imagining of the Heavy Armor because space marines in power armor is pretty awesome.
Comments
let the devs do their job
I have no clue what on earth whocareswc is referring to.
He's referring to the fact that this change would have been applied to an entirely new game, which has different game mechanics... basically stating what you said in one sentence.
Heavy trains also sort of makes skulks and lerks obsolete. And Skulk is my favourite class
Also, I read somewhere in a thread about an exoskeleton to replace heavy armour? Now that would be -SWEET- :D
The ideas are limitless, dont just shut something out because of the way it previously worked.
I think HA should stay in because it played a large part in NS1, and without it, it would be like removing fades. IT just wouldnt feel right. People also may be attracted to how cool HA look from screenshots, vids, etc. Plus, lots of games have large tanks that are equivalent to HA in NS - slow, but powerful.
HA doesn't have to be boring, change it suit the game - give it some more options than just more armour - things like:
*perhaps HA marines don't take health damage until the armour is down to 0 - and they take locational damage in 7 areas - arms, legs, front body, back body, and head - meaning that each highly damaged area would expose that body part, and only then they would take health damage, until it is repaired.
*strength and stability - lerks / fades can knock over normal marines, but not HA
*HA can pick up heavy boxes and crates, pull heavy doors shut or open
*carry more ammo or even certain types of "heavy" weapons like the flamer thrower
*HA doesnt take damage from certain types of attacks
*breathing under water to access shortcuts or hidden rooms
*can boost light marines up into new areas
*do more melee damage, or special holds, grabs, throws etc
*perhaps they can be equipped with dual guns
*or equipped with a large shield like in starcraft two - then multiple shields create a blockade
*maybe they can walk out into the vacuum of space (which the aliens triggered in a room by blowing up a door, or opening a hatch - it can only be mended or closed by HA)
*perhaps they can walk on walls or and ceilings with magnetic boots.
*you need HA to handle the radioactive NUKES - normal marines die?
*maybe they can't use phase gates? maybe normal marines can't? maybe they have personal short range teleporters built in.
the list simply goes on to make HA interesting
if HA goes, then you'll find my pre-order code on ebay
Above all I believe the dev's should not give into the community. They have a vision of the final project better than anyone in the community could have, and should peruse it as such. I see a lot of people complaining yet have never tried it, or tried it without. These people revert back to children. They see something on there plate and for the sake of God, immediately are afraid of something new. I say give let the UWE team do what they feel is best, and if it isn't up to standards when tested in game play, it can be changed.
-Josh
yea i am implying that NS2 is a "new game"
that is because it is.
if i wanted to pay $40 buck to play NS1 i wouldnt
For one thing... it needs to be a helluva lot more armored. Why? Well because no more then 2 or so people (think NS1 CO) will have heavies... they really need to be 100% self-sufficient. In short they can't need any welding of any kind. Instead opt for self-repairing armor (like nano armor in xmenu / CO) with the option of getting some extra welds from other marines... that is if NS2 actually still has welders... i think we got 25% chance of that seeing as how the devs are trying to keep their sinking-boat afloat by throwing everything that is NS1 overboard...
So other features... In NS1, the heavy was noisy as hell. That was to sort of tell the alien team... HERE I AM!! AND MY TEAM OF HEAVIES!!! + SUPPORT-WELDING-CREW!!! (The hmg was the same... its unique loud sound + weak damage meant that aliens could aim for just you in a crowd once you started shooting... aiming with their ears). Because a heavy doesn't need an entire swarm of aliens on them once they walk out of base... the heavy needs to be very silent.
Now, because the devs say that having a heavy armor which only provides armor at the cost of speed is not interesting enough... well we gotta make it fast... as fast or faster then a normal marine with higher jumping abilities. Remember the heavy is the ground-based jetpack... not to be lesser then a jetpack but still capable. Being slow as a snail really doesn't make heavy armor shine.
Hmm o and when parasited... they have to be parasite proof... parasiting is nice for tagging a bunch of marines... but because of the cost of a heavy (and its higher survilivibilty meaning that parasite will last the entire game if they stay alive that long...)... to be parasited is truly disastrous to your entire team. They therefore can either be parasited for a short period of time, with nanites clearing it, or no parasite can stick at all.
Other ways the heavies can be enhanced. Suit-integrated-aimbots. Yep smart-gun arms. Your suit understands your interested in hitting aliens... it knows what they look like, and it helps you do that. Makes sense i mean you got power-assisted arms for some reason...
A way to punch things? Punch enemy rts to deal higher damage then tasing it for 20 minutes? :P. Ok heavies really don't need knives and pistols... and i love knives and pistols!... It makes sense that the can beat the crap out of things with their powered muscles alone. And can squeeze a skulk till it bursts using only one hand + a foot to make sure its dead.
Better motion tracking. I said this in another thread, but it'd be cool to have faster-scanning radar that works 360 degrees around you... maybe you see what's in front of you as normal but the minimap reveals what's behind as well.
So ya their are loads and loads of ways to make heavies cool, even in the weird NS2 :P
I would really miss not having heavies. The game would be moving closer and closer to a crappy round of NS1 where their's no res for anything... no hmgs no jetpacks no heavies...
Confusing.
Also, I was expecting a much larger backlash for condemning heavy armor in its form. Kudos to you most of you folk.
As for the HA itself I don't really care. It certainly worked in the original NS and improved the game, but then again it has got some flaws in it and I can't see it being an essential part of NS in any way. I'm happy if some new and improved version of it ends up in the game, but then again I'm not going to miss it that much even if it doesn't end up being in the game. Whatever works the best.
For one thing... it needs to be a helluva lot more armored. Why? Well because no more then 2 or so people (think NS1 CO) will have heavies... they really need to be 100% self-sufficient. In short they can't need any welding of any kind. Instead opt for self-repairing armor (like nano armor in xmenu / CO) with the option of getting some extra welds from other marines... that is if NS2 actually still has welders... i think we got 25% chance of that seeing as how the devs are trying to keep their sinking-boat afloat by throwing everything that is NS1 overboard...
So other features... In NS1, the heavy was noisy as hell. That was to sort of tell the alien team... HERE I AM!! AND MY TEAM OF HEAVIES!!! + SUPPORT-WELDING-CREW!!! (The hmg was the same... its unique loud sound + weak damage meant that aliens could aim for just you in a crowd once you started shooting... aiming with their ears). Because a heavy doesn't need an entire swarm of aliens on them once they walk out of base... the heavy needs to be very silent.
Now, because the devs say that having a heavy armor which only provides armor at the cost of speed is not interesting enough... well we gotta make it fast... as fast or faster then a normal marine with higher jumping abilities. Remember the heavy is the ground-based jetpack... not to be lesser then a jetpack but still capable. Being slow as a snail really doesn't make heavy armor shine.
Hmm o and when parasited... they have to be parasite proof... parasiting is nice for tagging a bunch of marines... but because of the cost of a heavy (and its higher survilivibilty meaning that parasite will last the entire game if they stay alive that long...)... to be parasited is truly disastrous to your entire team. They therefore can either be parasited for a short period of time, with nanites clearing it, or no parasite can stick at all.
Other ways the heavies can be enhanced. Suit-integrated-aimbots. Yep smart-gun arms. Your suit understands your interested in hitting aliens... it knows what they look like, and it helps you do that. Makes sense i mean you got power-assisted arms for some reason...
A way to punch things? Punch enemy rts to deal higher damage then tasing it for 20 minutes? :P. Ok heavies really don't need knives and pistols... and i love knives and pistols!... It makes sense that the can beat the crap out of things with their powered muscles alone. And can squeeze a skulk till it bursts using only one hand + a foot to make sure its dead.
Better motion tracking. I said this in another thread, but it'd be cool to have faster-scanning radar that works 360 degrees around you... maybe you see what's in front of you as normal but the minimap reveals what's behind as well.
So ya their are loads and loads of ways to make heavies cool, even in the weird NS2 :P
I would really miss not having heavies. The game would be moving closer and closer to a crappy round of NS1 where their's no res for anything... no hmgs no jetpacks no heavies...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I lol'd.
Were those suggestions serious?
I hope not.
Though we may be able to change them somehow. Like what if heavies were really powerful, but needed support from normal marines to be useful? That way encourages teamwork, while letting non-onos aliens be useful by taking out their support structures (the normal marines). This would be akin to only letting light armored marines use welders in NS1, though I'm sure NS2 will be different enough that a different tactic may be used.
Effectively what I am suggesting is that heavies are walking tanks, but that heavy trains be less useful than a heavy supported by non-heavies.
Obviously the future NS2 players are going to be the NS1 ones. Why changing the game so much pleading an evolution.
I am feeling the game is becoming more linear(less strategic) and less team play than it was in the old school NS (1.4) and today.
The comm will just be there to drop rt,medpacks and set the upgrades ... useless.
The HAs are giving team play on the marine side but also do on the alien side. Killing a team of ha requires communication and synchronization; no ha would mean always play the marines the same way.
Why not trying to add abilities to the HAs as said schkorpio
NS has been "quake like"-ed enough with the combat mode, I know the developers will have the last word but it is "NATURAL SELECTION" 2, so the natural selection community should be part of it... otherwise NS2 community will be a different one than NS1 one.
The death of what was making NS1 is just sounding like making it less TP.
Though we may be able to change them somehow. Like what if heavies were really powerful, but needed support from normal marines to be useful? That way encourages teamwork, while letting non-onos aliens be useful by taking out their support structures (the normal marines). This would be akin to only letting light armored marines use welders in NS1, though I'm sure NS2 will be different enough that a different tactic may be used.
Effectively what I am suggesting is that heavies are walking tanks, but that heavy trains be less useful than a heavy supported by non-heavies.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Late game JP+HA against 2 hive aliens with onos, fades and lerks is quite teamwork intense as HAs protect jetpacks from fades and skulks and JPs try to keep the onoses from devouring HAs. Too bad it happens so rarely in NS.
It would be interesting if the HA or its power armor replacement could be designed to serve a line backer role. Their objective is to prevent the melee dominate aliens from reaching the more squishy unarmored marines who are much more mobile and common than their armored counterparts.
You mean like a "disruptor"?? Like how the onos, for some reason, is supposed to be able to penetrate the marine defenses, which they shouldn't even have because their the attackers...
Why don't we just merge heavy armor with jetpack... i mean flying heavies :P
that was an idea since combat and the level hack appeared.
a serious thought would be to give the ha/exo a some sort of limited thrusters that replace the jump ability.
on another thought...
claustrophobic corridors + speeding mechanical support = awesome! (you know what I mean. If not... <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlW2s4UZcpA" target="_blank">YouTube</a> @ 0:57)
Anyway, I don't realy care if it's HA is or not as long as some sort of upgrade in this direction exists.
as far as I understand by now they replaced the ha with the exo - fair enough for me.
Going along with the idea that a little sidearm and knife have no place in the heavies badass-hands... perhaps they can come standard with integrated flamethrowers in both arms. But if that's asking for to much, then maybe they can carry up to 3 primary weapons where 1 is slung (backup shotgun) and whatever combo for the 2 primary weapons the heavy has. Yet another variation is only being able to carry 2 primary weapons (1 slung), (1 in their hands),... but their hands can be used as a quick melee attack for close quarters to push off aliens (i.e. throw them across the room while breaking another aliens neck with your armored thumb).
As for scrapping the HA, yes, but no...