Interactive physics
Racer1
Join Date: 2002-11-22 Member: 9615Members
Join Date: 2002-11-22 Member: 9615Members
Is NS2 going to support interaction with "inanimate" objects using a physics engine? For example, if there is a table or piece of metal that is not attached to the floor, will the players be able to push it around, or even pick it up? Presumably running into these objects would move them, depending on mass, etc.
If so, I can imagine a situation where a room contains various movable items and the commander orders the marines to pile everything up at an entrance in a desperate attempt to block an expected alien rush. After a few moments, the aliens attack, breaking through and rushing in over the pile of strewn debris.
If so, I can imagine a situation where a room contains various movable items and the commander orders the marines to pile everything up at an entrance in a desperate attempt to block an expected alien rush. After a few moments, the aliens attack, breaking through and rushing in over the pile of strewn debris.
Comments
Actually, the Havok used in Source Engine makes that possible and it works GREAT.
Have you ever played Zombie Panic! Source mod? The secret to win as survivor is to pile every object on the door entrance of some room.
And no, the objects physic doesn't ruin the game. In fact it makes the game VERY INTERACTIVE and it would be great if NS2 had that feature.
And even though with a Physics engine you can move around the stuff in the environment, it is not accurate enough and as a result kills immersion rather than adding to the experience.
edit:
* actually, ragdolls are handled clientside anyways..
Yes it is and TF2 doesn't have this. It only supports ragdolls.
Not meaning to sound Grammar Nazi-ish; some people just don't know the phrase.
1) Ragdolls (of course)
2) Weapons should be physically modeled. Meaning you can toss weapons like you do in CS:S, or weapons will fall realistically to the ground when killed.
3) Limited map specific physics entities. This could include walkways that collapse, or some debris from an onos knocking a door down or a wall open.
Ragdolls alone are gonna be really cool. It will probably be done client side like Source does I'd imagine. Although it would be awesome for everyone to see the same ragdoll if run serverside, its probably not realistic performance wise.
But yeah, turning on too much physics just eats bandwidth to keep track of everything and cpu power to process it all. I say limited items, ragdoll, and weapon/player physics.
Saying it has strange vehicule physics is just silly.
<!--quoteo(post=1720120:date=Jul 30 2009, 05:48 PM:name=aeroripper)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (aeroripper @ Jul 30 2009, 05:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1720120"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ragdolls alone are gonna be really cool. It will probably be done client side like Source does I'd imagine. Although it would be awesome for everyone to see the same ragdoll if run serverside, its probably not realistic performance wise.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Some source engine mod used ragdolls server side (The Hidden) and there was not so much problems...
I'm not saying it can't be done, but it's just a lot harder to implement physics with low latency on fast FPS games.
I'm pretty sure that would cause problems with replication. The problem with such a physics object is that a varierty of things can affect it. So you shoot a box, and the server server sends the start position of the box and the end position (which would still have to be calculated server-side unless you let the client do that too...). If there was absolutely Zero lag and <b>nothing</b> interacted with the box at all (which is extremely unlikely in real game situation where the game doesn't turns the physics off after a situation like this, which isn't practical) then you would probably be fine.
The problem though is that in a real game, clients on a server would very rarely have a 0 lag, their ping would be >0 unless they were extremely near the server box or playing directly on it. This means that one player could jump on the way of the moving box, perhaps it kills the player, perhaps it doesn't, but the player interacts with the box. This would likely cause the box to change directions, giving a new start position (and possibly an end position). If a players ping is even low, their client, calculating the actual physics of the box would still have the old coordinates. When the new coordinates are received, the box could do a variety of things such as jumping around (because the new start position doesn't correspond with the old start position or end position and the box could still be in the middle of its old calculated trajectory in the air), so what you then get is Out of Sync issues.
Furthermore, if Player As computer is much faster than Player Bs computer, the physics could be calculated faster and the box might end up being launched into the air before Player B sees that launch which causes other Out of Sync issues. The server should handle most of this stuff to keep everyones client in sync.
1. "physics takes too much CPU time (and bandwidth)"
2. "physics doesn't add anything to the gameplay"
3. "most other multiplayer games don't do it, so it must be too difficult to accomplish"
Argument #1 makes the assumption that a) all servers have limited CPU resources and b) processing power (and bandwidth) will not significantly increase in the future. The fact is that some admins are willing to sacrifice CPU power for a better gaming experience, and CPU power and available bandwidth will increase in the future. As long as the option is provided to server admins to disable (or reduce CPU time for) the physics engine, then this argument is marginalized.
Argument #2 presupposes that physics cannot add to gameplay. Instead, the question should be, "in what way can we make the game more fun and immersive by adding physics?". If we can help gameplay using physics, then this argument doesn't even exist. If we cannot help gameplay, then the argument holds and physics should be left out -- but isn't this fact true for all features that could be added to a game?
Argument #3 was the only one that pointed to the underlying problems in physics for multiplayer games. The fact is that synchronization of a physics based environment across multiple clients is difficult. This is especially true when you consider that clients run differently configured PCs with different amounts of latency. However, the fact that this challenge exists does not by itself mean doing physics is impossible.
At the very least, if you get past the first two arguments, then you have a reason to at least try to tackle the third -- and add an interactive physics engine to the game.
I was replying to the previous poster, so yeah, what are you implying?
Since this is something that wouldn't be too hard to implement, I say someone should start collecting signatures for inserting this idea into the game.
Since this is something that wouldn't be too hard to implement, I say someone should start collecting signatures for inserting this idea into the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It would hinder the gameplay a lot more than it would help it, I'm afraid. Add a lot of unneeded frustration.
Since this is something that wouldn't be too hard to implement, I say someone should start collecting signatures for inserting this idea into the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They are no longer using the half-life 2 (Source) engine, which includes its havoc physics. It's on their own engine now with one or more physics systems other than havoc. Was it PhysX and another one they were trying? I can't remember.
Have you ever played Zombie Panic! Source mod? The secret to win as survivor is to pile every object on the door entrance of some room.
And no, the objects physic doesn't ruin the game. In fact it makes the game VERY INTERACTIVE and it would be great if NS2 had that feature.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No it does not work GREAT. I can't remember how many times I got killed in CS:S Thanks to some dumb*** object like a barrel. You can get stuck in it or it pushes you back(or in any direction) against another object. Whatever it does, it's hindering your movement, therefore hindering your gameplay. Sure it looks neat to see stuff fly around when there's explosions, but the cons far outweight the pros in my opinion.
Also take CoD4 for example, there's hundreds of little props lying around on tables and whatnot, they are affected by physics. You know what? Those little props bug the living hell out of me. So often I'm trying to shoot someone but there's an object in the way, and I waste bullets making it move. Or worse yet, it looks to you like you're hidden because an object is covering you, but in the other player's screen perhaps it isn't even there, and he can see your head sticking out crystal clear... Yeah, no thanks.
The Zombie Panic mod revolves entirely around piling **** up so of course it helps THAT gameplay. For any other game, however, it's application is limited and/or useless. Finally, nobody should care about NS2 "feeling 2009", what you should care about is NS2 feeling like NS2.
All in all, I think physics (other than ragdolls) doesn't even belong on the list of things UWE should be worrying about. There's tons of other gameplay aspects that require their attention, so let's please not bother them with making it possible for you to shoot a bottle around the room for an hour because you're bored. If playing with physic'ed objects is what you want to do, please go play Zombie Panic!
(Edit: Also, think of the griefing/exploiting such objects could potentially allow.)
IIRC it was PhysX and Bullet.
1) limited physics entities or
2) quasi-physics hacks (collision while using ability = damage and propulsion!)
Also, in another thread, they explicitly said no knocking over turrets.
I'm not saying it can't be done, but it's just a lot harder to implement physics with low latency on fast FPS games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Can't it be done so that the server does one set of calculations (continuously of course) and simply sends it to all players? I mean they are in the same game and therefore should see everything the same way, right? Well, I really am fine if the physics are limited to merely ragdolls and stuff. But I personally always liked the idea of an Onos storming at a bunch of turrets spitting metal at it. The huge mass and velocity of Onos causes turrets to... well, to put it in a settle way, step aside upon impact. I guess that could be done in as ragdolls as well.