Hardware question time

DiscoZombie

<div class="IPBDescription">PSUs and SSDs</div>Whenever someone mentions a hard-to-diagnose computer problem, the first question is almost always whether their PSU is beefy enough. How do you know how much power supply you need? I just ran my specs through the calculator at <a href="http://www.antec.outervision.com/PSUEngine" target="_blank">http://www.antec.outervision.com/PSUEngine</a> - and it said I needed about 242w to run my system, and here I thought my 500w PSU was wimpy by gamer standards... are these calculators accurate? what sort of hardware would you need before you start requiring like an 800w power supply?

also, anyone have any estimates on how long it will be until SSDs are affordable? Anyone run one? How much did you pay for it? I hear very good things - I'm drooling over the idea of near instant bootup and game load times...

Thaldarin

I think the case is most PSU's run best at around 80% which is why you order an over the top one for efficiency.

TychoCelchuuu

500W is typically enough unless you're running many hard drives/CD drives/graphics cards or something. For your average computer with a graphics card that only has a 4 pin power cable going into it (or even no cable) with an average number of fans and stuff 500W is fine as long as it's a good brand. The brand is really the big thing; a crappy brand's 800W isn't going to put out 800W.

juice

If you overclock you need a bigger margin as well, because the more power you use from the supply, the more the potential for ripple and imprecise voltages. Again this depends on the brand. I got a super cheap PS with way over the top power and it worked great for overclocking. Until it didn't. lol. But seriously I prefer to get the $15 supply than the $150 supply and just get a new one if it craps out. But you don't want to go tooo budget. It can fry your hardware. The $15 one was with a big rebate. And it died peacefully. In its sleep.

edit: and if you end up with extra you can use the cheap ones for handy dandy around the house stuff... if you're into that

Cereal_KillR

Buying a quality PSU is often overlooked by many users, but as it has already been said, it's truly central to your system. You need quality power delivered to your system, not just big megawats.
High quality PSU's not only can actually safely give out the power they're designed to give out, they do so at a better efficiency. Therefore, if you need 300W and your PSU is at 85% efficiency, you actually use 353W. Bad PSU's can be as low as 60% efficient, which means that a 300W load actually demands 500W.
Needless to say, bad efficiency = more expensive electricity bill, but also hotter supply, which means overheating danger, or worse. Remember that for gaming, you need stability, and over lengthy periods of time. Else your system can reboot unexpectedly, perhaps sometimes just shut down. Worse case scenarios can see your PSU or system destroyed.
One last thing: buying too big a PSU isn't a good idea. Peak efficiency is usually reached at around half the PSU's rating specs. That's a rule of thumb, and besides, most quality supplies now provide good efficiency from 20% load and up.

edit: to clarify, when I say "a 300W load actually uses 353W" that means that if your PSU is rated for 300W, it "should" be fine (though using 100% load isn't smart). However, 350 watts are taken from your wall's power plug. The rating written on your power supply shows you what it can take, however it doesn't refer in any way to what it actually takes from your installation (as this varies both on efficiency and actual power consumed). Therefore, it is better to have a 850W supply working at 82% efficiency on a 300W load, than a 350W supply working at 60% efficiency on the same load.
I'll also add that you have to be cautious on how this power is shared on the different rails. Check your PSU's sticker for additional info. Remember that Power(W) = voltage(V)*current(A) and that it's not because you're under the total power limit that you're not over the limit of a single rail.



As for SSD's, I'm hoping to get one soon. They are quite expensive, but hard drives have been the bottleneck in a system for too long. I'm eyeing the G.Skill Falcon: 64 GB for 190€, 128 for 320€. I know it's very expensive, but the performance is breathtaking.

steppin'razor

<!--quoteo(post=1718548:date=Jul 22 2009, 08:53 AM:name=TychoCelchuuu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TychoCelchuuu @ Jul 22 2009, 08:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1718548"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->500W is typically enough unless you're running many hard drives/CD drives/graphics cards or something. For your average computer with a graphics card that only has a 4 pin power cable going into it (or even no cable) with an average number of fans and stuff 500W is fine as long as it's a good brand. The brand is really the big thing; a crappy brand's 800W isn't going to put out 800W.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this man knows what he is talking about

lolfighter

Except the power cable for the GPU is six pin.

Rob

Wattage and efficiency aren't the only things to be concerned with. The most important thing a PSU can do for you is supply a constant DC voltage. Unfortunately, there aren't any good metrics or ratings for this, you just have to look for a good brand that people haven't had too many problems with.

Also, with video cards these days, look for ratings in the specs that tell you how many 12 volt amps the card wants. Lots of power supplies won't give you that many amps (usually cards want more than 15A or so out of the 12 V) and at the very least you'll take some performance hits because of it. The PSU will have ratings like 12V, 10A or 12V, 58A. They say as far as 12Vs go, a single 12V rail is better than two. Rail is a fancy term for "supplied voltage line." I tend to agree just because it reduces complexity.

edit: speel bad

lolfighter

Depends on size though. Beyond a certain point a single 12V rail is no longer feasible and the PSU will HAVE to have two (or even more). The reason why two rails can be undesirable is because neither rail is capable of supplying the PSU's full output. When rating the PSU the manufacturer will add the output of the two 12V rails together and list that, but each rail can only supply half of that. This means that with two rails you have to try to split the load evenly across them, or you are going to end up with one over-taxed rail and one unused one.

Jasp

To answer your original question Disco, intel has just started moving their SSDs to 34nm not 50nm like the current generation. They expect up to a 60% price drop on current prices so really might be worth waiting. <a href="http://www.hexus.net/content/item.php?item=19374" target="_blank">http://www.hexus.net/content/item.php?item=19374</a>

Rob

<!--quoteo(post=1718655:date=Jul 22 2009, 11:02 AM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lolfighter @ Jul 22 2009, 11:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1718655"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Depends on size though. Beyond a certain point a single 12V rail is no longer feasible and the PSU will HAVE to have two (or even more). The reason why two rails can be undesirable is because neither rail is capable of supplying the PSU's full output. When rating the PSU the manufacturer will add the output of the two 12V rails together and list that, but each rail can only supply half of that. This means that with two rails you have to try to split the load evenly across them, or you are going to end up with one over-taxed rail and one unused one.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

That makes sense.

spellman23

Yay for current laws!

Rob

<!--quoteo(post=1718770:date=Jul 22 2009, 05:43 PM:name=spellman23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spellman23 @ Jul 22 2009, 05:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1718770"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yay for current laws!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

You mean that crap uncle Ohm used to go on and on about?

weezl

the parts that consume the most are
1 gpu
2 cpu
3 and everything else

with 1 and 2 high-end, you rarely consume more than ~350w, but that would be measured actual consumption.
the components' ratings would sum up to ~450w (including #3).
so when choosing a psu, get a little margin to be on the safe side, so 500-550w.

note this is with 1 quad cpu, 1 gpu, no OC
with 2 high end gpu:s, add another ~250w to final psu wattage (300 if radeon 4870x2 :P).
also note all figures are in full load context, not idle.

and like mentioned, go for best effiecency, for many reasons...
most important is the quality of the components, and thereby quality of output (and psu lifetime). when a manufacturer is making a technologically advanced psu with high eff, they don't choose crappy components simply.
second, your psu will be cooler and quieter (less energy wasted into heat).
and ofc, better for the enviroment, and technology progression.
you have the "80plus" standard to guide you. there's plain 80+, 80+ bronze, silver, and on a few new ones - gold.
i recommend silver or bronze, simply cos of the availability, gold if you can find one and have money for it.

some links:
<a href="http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/geforce-radeon-power,2122-6.html" target="_blank">http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/geforc...wer,2122-6.html</a>
<a href="http://www.80plus.org/" target="_blank">http://www.80plus.org/</a>

Epidemic

<!--quoteo(post=1718665:date=Jul 22 2009, 05:46 AM:name=Jasp)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jasp @ Jul 22 2009, 05:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1718665"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To answer your original question Disco, intel has just started moving their SSDs to 34nm not 50nm like the current generation. They expect up to a 60% price drop on current prices so really might be worth waiting. <a href="http://www.hexus.net/content/item.php?item=19374" target="_blank">http://www.hexus.net/content/item.php?item=19374</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Intel said they have reduced cost by 50% going from 50nm to 34nm, so there's alot of room for price adjustments that will happen once the competition steps up.

There will not be a good time to buy a SSD in the coming year if you are extremely cost-concious like me :D

spellman23

just wait about 3-6 months for AMD to put out their version. Then the prices will start to drop.

Intel will always have the leading edge, but AMD always prices accordingly to try and undercut them. Too bad AMD failed at the dual core battle, but they have awesome low-power cores.

DiscoZombie

thanks - great info, all. sounds like load screens will be practically a thing of the past any day now :D

Cereal_KillR

I hope you're patient waiting for an AMD SSD - they are under non-competition agreements with business partners.
The flash memory industry is really one of the fiercest in the electronics world right now. Prices are really dropping amazingly fast, that's one of the reasons Intel is cutting down the prices so dramatically on a simple generation change. And believe it or not, Intel doesn't rule the flash memory market.

spellman23

<!--quoteo(post=1719054:date=Jul 23 2009, 11:29 PM:name=Cereal_KillR)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cereal_KillR @ Jul 23 2009, 11:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1719054"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I hope you're patient waiting for an AMD SSD - they are under non-competition agreements with business partners.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Actually, I believe AMD and Intel have cross-tech/licensing agreements. If one group develops something, they get claim to it for a while but then share it with the other guys, typically a few (i.e. not 2) months. Turns out the majority of the chip companies have these with at least one other company.

Cereal_KillR

AMD and Intel's cross-licensing agreement only affects x86 processors, as far as I know... It would make sense, cross-licensing is only done when it is necessary to share knowledge (for compatibility, for example). It's not giving away your patents.