Need testers for my custom L4D Map!
Slycaster
Limited Edition Join Date: 2002-01-24 Member: 24Members, NS1 Playtester
ROUND 2!
Major updates have happened, so please, i'd appreciate everyone's feedback on the new build. Mad props to compy and his incredibly picky tastes.
A ton has changed since the last build you've seen. It's playable online, so please, take a look at it now.
Once again, i'd love feedback of any sorts.
Even if you just wanna stop by to flame or praise it.
Just so everyone knows, this is currently HALF of chapter one. The saferoom door at the end is purely there for the purposes of making it playable online. This is only half of chapter 1 of 5. :)
THANKS AGAIN FOR ALL THE CRIT/PRAISE.
KEEP IT' GOIN.
Download and extract so that both files are in your l4d/maps folder. Type map gdbetanew in console to play.
<a href="http://www.mediafire.com/?jjute0gmdmm" target="_blank">http://www.mediafire.com/?jjute0gmdmm</a>
Major updates have happened, so please, i'd appreciate everyone's feedback on the new build. Mad props to compy and his incredibly picky tastes.
A ton has changed since the last build you've seen. It's playable online, so please, take a look at it now.
Once again, i'd love feedback of any sorts.
Even if you just wanna stop by to flame or praise it.
Just so everyone knows, this is currently HALF of chapter one. The saferoom door at the end is purely there for the purposes of making it playable online. This is only half of chapter 1 of 5. :)
THANKS AGAIN FOR ALL THE CRIT/PRAISE.
KEEP IT' GOIN.
Download and extract so that both files are in your l4d/maps folder. Type map gdbetanew in console to play.
<a href="http://www.mediafire.com/?jjute0gmdmm" target="_blank">http://www.mediafire.com/?jjute0gmdmm</a>
Comments
<a href="http://www.clorf.com/cyn/l4d_cyn.zip" target="_blank">http://www.clorf.com/cyn/l4d_cyn.zip</a>
With that in mind, it's nice. Atmospheric, crammed of zombies and an impressive amount of detail. It's over crowded with a vast amount of off rooms to explore, first time through I ended up just skipping them and going straight down. I like the idea of a really dark map although with expert in mind those very tight corridors at the beginning will be death.
- detail, it's great
- That area where the few trucks are crashed. It's really nice.
- if thats the starting room you have, I like the hole in the wall, makes it easier to clear the area outside the door
Bad:
- the hallways are way too narrow everywhere. It's really easy to just sit and melee and not take any damage. L4D becomes scary when zombies can come from any direction and surround you. Also one barrel got knocked in our way and provided a huge hassle too.
- It's way too dark. An odd room or two that is pitch black would be cool, but the whole map is just annoying.
- the flow is a bit off. Like thaldy said, there are a lot of side rooms. At one point I thought I was backtracking (but didn't care since I wanted to explore the level) but turned out to be going in the correct direction.
Here are my thoughts I wrote down while running around the map:
- Thematically, I can't really tell what the map is supposed to <i>be</i>. Is it a warehouse? Some underground bunker thing?
- As others have pointed out, pretty much all the hallways are way too tight.
- In the survivor's safe room, all health packs should really be grouped together so the player only ever has 1 place to look. Also you have 5 of them. :P
- Likewise, the weapons and ammo bucket should be closer together.
- I love the 'window' in the safe room you can shoot out of. It does a great job of setting the theme for the entire map just in that room.
- As others have mentioned, consider not having a pitch black map, but rather doing what valve does of having the light fog. At least not for the entire map.
- Maybe you haven't gotten to it yet, but it seems to be very dry on ammo. I was using pistols almost exclusively and I was still nearly out of ammo by the time I found the stash in the security-ish room.
- Ditto for no molotovs/pipe bombs.
- The ramp you have made out of a table is kind of a pain to get back over. If this is meant to be a 1-way path, make it more obvious by making the drop a lot further so it's obvious you can't get back (even before you make the drop)
- Zombies can't seem to climb over railings, the crashed tanker, etc. Making it very very easy to defend because they can only come at you from 2 directions.
- A lot of the rooms I ran across had locked doors. Consider making these empty rooms for the purposes of exploration/power ups/teammate respawn points.
- The glass breaks like old Half-Life 1 style glass (1 shot + big huge chunks), not the sexier Source engine style glass (1 little hole w/ lots of shattering).
- Get rid of the misleading "safe room" spray icon you have on the wall near the elevator, that points to the barricaded room. While I get what you're trying to do from a design standpoint, as a game mechanic those sprays should only ever point to where the player is supposed to go. Add on top of this that some of those crates are breakable and the player will waste time + ammo trying to get in
- Maybe this is intentional, but on top of the elevator I can actually climb the wall by the doors as if it were a ladder.
- There's too much rubble. I got stuck several times.
Below are some screenshots I took to illustrate my points:
<a href="http://www.shackpics.com/viewer.x?file=new20000_i14n5k1n1y9e4imwp7qj.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.shackpics.com/viewer.x?file=new...y9e4imwp7qj.jpg</a>
I got stuck on this table while running around. Consider NOT having it stick out from the wall, or using clip brushes on the wall itself so I can't get close enough to catch myself.
<a href="http://www.shackpics.com/viewer.x?file=new20005_4791fvhpt4ujjiq2jrnb.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.shackpics.com/viewer.x?file=new...4ujjiq2jrnb.jpg</a>
Got stuck in between these two spools too.
<a href="http://www.shackpics.com/viewer.x?file=new20002_qoc9av5bi4glkb0gwo93.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.shackpics.com/viewer.x?file=new...4glkb0gwo93.jpg</a>
I was climbing on top of the tanker truck when I jumped off the end and got stuck in this little area.
<a href="http://www.shackpics.com/viewer.x?file=new20004_omtczb0ls3ijtfq5ws44.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.shackpics.com/viewer.x?file=new...3ijtfq5ws44.jpg</a>
This room with the white tanks is more complicated than it should be. For some reason I kept getting lost even though I knew where I was supposed to go. It's almost maze-like. Also you can't jump over the rail and onto these things when really it seems like you should be able to.
Don't let my feedback discourage you, because it's still a fun and great looking map. It just needs a bit more work to really excel!
OH THATS JUST FAVOURITISM!
I kid :p
Although generally all L4D maps start with the first level being a one track mind, one pathway to go on. It's perfectly fine to do, although for all intense purposes I think the off rooms and narrowness should be saved for a more relevant time and just make the beginning a bit more simple and open. Maybe a dirty corridor leading to that pipe/tank room that leads on to the main way from there?
Steam profile name is DOOManiac. :P
I didn't realize it was even two-path. Right at the start?
Sorry. Bugbear. I'll promise to stop if you promise to stop!
And I'm going to contribute something constructive to this thread when I have a chance to test it. It's downloaded and ready to roll, just waiting for the right moment.
The lighting in particular I want to call out as being most improved. You can now navigate the map with flashlight off if needed, and when you do the horde silhouette is just creepy awesome. Fantastic work! :D
- The flow seemed a lot better as well. Maybe it's because I knew what to expect, but this time around it seems way more straightforward where I was going.
- The new beginning safe room is a lot better. Great job.
- I don't know why but none of the bots grabbed health packs or weapons this time.
- So far the biggest downside of the map is that I get stuck. A lot. Even more than the last version actually. :(
- I still don't know what this place is supposed to "be". Is it underground? Cause there aren't any windows...
- I found some Molotovs and pills this time. :)
- In the white tank room (formerly referred to as the tank maze) the zombies still can't climb up them. It makes it very easy to defend in this room as they can't get to you.
- Glass still breaks HL1 style :(
- There still seems to be not any empty closets for letting respawned players out
- Maybe your pathing isn't complete or something, but in the overturned truck room Zoey got stuck downstairs after I went up the staircase. The other 2 bots made it though. She never did make it out until she automatically teleported back to me due to distance...
- Got stuck over by the lifter... thing... that's on fire (that blocks the truck room from the elevator shaft room)
More screenshots of bugs:
<a href="http://www.shackpics.com/viewer.x?file=gdbetanew0004_kdn3y5ldyi7diza4mal6.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.shackpics.com/viewer.x?file=gdb...i7diza4mal6.jpg</a>
The vent that the zombies drop through? Sometimes I can see their feet clipping through the ceiling. Couldn't capture it in the screenshot though.
<a href="http://www.shackpics.com/viewer.x?file=gdbetanew0007_rqyft4tfe5k5h3v29rwd.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.shackpics.com/viewer.x?file=gdb...5k5h3v29rwd.jpg</a>
The overturned truck looks a little silly as it is right now, because it's defying the laws of physics by sitting up w/ 2 wheels in the air like that.
<a href="http://www.shackpics.com/viewer.x?file=gdbetanew0005_vr5l7vw7qcs94ui0sagb.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.shackpics.com/viewer.x?file=gdb...cs94ui0sagb.jpg</a>
I got stuck on this box in the truck room. Please make it whatever the source equivalent of a func_detail is.
<a href="http://www.shackpics.com/viewer.x?file=gdbetanew0008_ezracy3tsvgrdsmmrbsh.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.shackpics.com/viewer.x?file=gdb...vgrdsmmrbsh.jpg</a>
Upstairs, I got stuck on this fire hydrant. :(
<a href="http://www.shackpics.com/viewer.x?file=gdbetanew0010_3y9cs894wo25628cl6c0.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.shackpics.com/viewer.x?file=gdb...o25628cl6c0.jpg</a>
This bulletin board just looks out of place. It's more brightly lit than it's surroundings, and it's completely clean while everything else is trashed.
<a href="http://www.shackpics.com/viewer.x?file=gdbetanew0011_e426knd4mm77gs443ns8.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.shackpics.com/viewer.x?file=gdb...m77gs443ns8.jpg</a>
You can still climb the elevator doors, lol. :D
<a href="http://www.shackpics.com/viewer.x?file=gdbetanew0014_t30uvjiabvi4hjml03ci.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.shackpics.com/viewer.x?file=gdb...vi4hjml03ci.jpg</a>
The bars on the side of the elevator here just look odd. They jut out too much for one. I mean who makes an elevator w/ bars that can hook onto things like that?
<a href="http://www.shackpics.com/viewer.x?file=gdbetanew0015_2iifewyz8wnt3tl78jk8.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.shackpics.com/viewer.x?file=gdb...wnt3tl78jk8.jpg</a>
This AC unit looks a little odd too clipping through the ladder. I like the idea though, it just needs some tweaking.
Also when I climb to the top of the ladder my character goes into a spasm of holstering/unholstering their weapon. I'm guessing you just need to extend the invisible ladder climbing entity higher into the debris and let that be what blocks the player from climbing higher.
<a href="http://www.shackpics.com/viewer.x?file=gdbetanew0017_ezg5nqcdu50h2vn5ptwv.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.shackpics.com/viewer.x?file=gdb...50h2vn5ptwv.jpg</a>
Back by the overturned truck, I got stuck here. :(
Awesome moment of the map: In the elevator shaft climbing the ladder, I got pulled out by a smoker from the 2nd floor all the way down and he beat the crap out of me till the stupid bots finally climbed down to shoot him. :D
Again, don't let all the bug reports discourage you. If you can keep making improvements of the level that you've already made w/ these two versions then your map is going to really be something. So keep up the good work! I can't wait to see the new version. :D
or you should find a way to post NS related stuff on the board! amgad
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nice post DOOM ♥
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To me it seems like the basement of some sort of factory, library or something, although then the road pops up which confuses me. Your style is good, however you just need a clearer definition in your purpose (ie. setting the map theme). I did get a small amount of FPS lag looking at the table/window area in the first room though, bit weird. I don't know if it's drawing too much ahead because of the window placement?
As far as that I'd say it falls slightly short of an intro map, I whizzed through it in pretty much close to 60 seconds with the expert setting on my own leaving the bots behind. I put much of the blame on the narrow corridors I could just blast straight through.
Good progression though, still liking the detail =]
SteamID: thaldarin [at] gmail [dot] com
Generally online all 'Pean times possible outside of a 9-5 job so if you ever want to run through things, just throw me an invite/say.
Errors
- No SFX on any of your ladders
- Dodgy collision on 'zombie pile'
- Dodgy collision on upturned truck (the one that must be climbed)
Suggestions
- The route is too linear
- The route is too confusing
- The corridors and routes in general are too narrow
- Lighting still needs work, especially for helping with navigation
- The level lacks a clear theme
- Needs an extra ammo pack before the security room
I would go through every bug I can find but this would take me a very long time to document fully with screenshots, descriptions and steps to reproduce. At a rough guess I'd say there are about 20-30 bugs that need fixing, but the overwhelming priority should be altering the map to be more easily navigable, less linear, wider and more thematic.
I'd be happy to show you online and have you take the screenshots and make notes for the little bugs. Here are the suggestions in more detail:
<b>The route is too confusing</b>
This suggestion may seem to contradict the one below, but because of the random lighting and the dead-ends at the beginning of the level, I didn't know I was going the right direction until I had explored every possibility. L4D typically uses light to show the player where to go (see below) and if you look at any L4D map there are very few dead ends. Dead ends in L4D are usually signified by narrower areas, with the critical path being wider and more inviting through better lighting.
<b>The route is too linear</b>
Zombies either rush you from the front or from the back, never from the sides. This makes it very easy to anticipate and deal with encounters. It's also very boring to be lead down a narrow path. Of course, the level must be linear for it to work properly, but you need to add more forks in the road and more width to allow the player to feel like they are making decisions in how they are approaching the map.
<b>The corridors and routes in general are too narrow</b>
Your level mostly has the entire route at the same width which makes it super-easy to kill zombie hordes. Try making the critical path wider and leaving the dead-end sections as they are. More width means more zombies can attack a single player. Right now you're forcing them to queue up to take swipes at the player. Zombies aren't orderly, so give them the space to act a little more chaotically.
<b>Lighting still needs work, especially for helping with navigation</b>
<a href="http://www.l4d.com/blog/post.php?id=2129" target="_blank">Read this entry from the L4D blog</a>. Right now your lighting is far too random, attracting too much attention to aspects that are inconsequential. You should have enough ambient lighting to allow the player to distinguish large objects around which to navigate, and you should highlight points along the path the players need to take. Every time a player turns a corner or exits a doorway the next navigation goal in their journey should be visually obvious.
Imo, the prioritisation from strong lighting to low lighting to darkness should be:
<b><i>Destination > critical path > player navigable area > zombie navigable area > aesthetic detail > non-navigable area</i></b>
- The destination, or the threshold between this area and the next should always be the best-lit part of an area. This tells the player where they need to get to.
- Next, the player is shown the main route of getting there. This could be as simple as street lights shining down on a road that goes in the direction of the destination.
- Next, the player is shown a range of options. They don't need to go down the critical path, they can make slight deviations to avoid zombies or investigate the map, but the lighting should not be emphasising dead-ends. The lighting is enough to give the player an outline of the extreme area within which they can navigate without bumping into walls in the dark.
- Next, if there are any areas the player cannot reach but the zombies can, the player needs to know about these too. Examples include vents, windows and tops of buildings.
- Aesthetic detail is obviously important in setting the scene, but it shouldn't take precedence over navigation. You can combine detail with navigation by incorporating the two into 'landmarks' (memorable features of your map that are dotted along the critical path, fitting together in the players head as a method of signposting which way to go).
- Finally, non-navigable areas should be de-emphasised as much as possible. E.g., don't invite the player to jump onto a well-lit rooftop below if they cannot get back up, or are likely to die or seriously injure themself in the process.
<b>The level lacks a clear theme</b>
Where am I? The level is currently a bit non-descript. I don't really understand why there are trucks underground. All of the official campaigns start the player in an area whose function and theme is immediately recognisable (rooftop of an apartment block, greenhouse, a hilltop road). It might be worth trying to make one custom texture for the starting saferoom that tells the player where they are so it all makes a bit more sense. E.g. if it's a maintenance room of a sewage management facility you start in, you could have a schematic of the map, labelled "Sewage Management Facility - Basement Level". But on top of that you need to choose your props and landmarks carefully so they fit the theme. You can also put together areas of would-be activity that are now abandoned, that denote the theme/function of the location and also strengthen the deserted nature of a zombie apocalypse.
As you can see, a lot of these suggestions tie into eachother: if the lighting were better the route would be more obvious, if the routes had more open areas it would feel less linear and be less predictable. In general the detail is of a good standard but the layout is letting down the experience massively.
Hope that helps.
Mostly it involves having a wider path, but with islands in it to give the illusion of choice. So, the path "diverges" and then re-converges cleverly later on. The real trick is to prevent backtracking by making moving forward so imperative or making moving back after the re-converge impossible. Be very careful of the no going back though because that makes a great way to split up a team with a Smoker. =]
There was this great article a while back on "Everything I learned about map design I learned form Disneyland." It mentioned the pseudo-multipathing. It also mentioned using landmarks to help keep people oriented and to give clear destinations. Perhaps that, accompanied with the lighting suggestions, can help make the map more understandable in terms of main versus side paths.
I find it amusing that people post that it's "too linear" and "too confusing" in the same post....
Good example: No Mercy, chapter 1: In the building where you start there's a short drop down to the ground floor. A smoker can spawn in the bathroom behind you or around the corner, then grab the last survivor to jump down. The other survivors can't backtrack, so that one is now doomed. However, you can safely stand behind a short wall before you drop down, which keeps you out of view of a smoker spawning behind you unless he moves very close. Another option is to have one or two survivors move to the other side of the hole, then have the ones on the near side drop down first. If a smoker grabs the guy on the far side he'll just get pulled into the hole and the other survivors can melee him loose. A team that is aware of the danger and takes measures against it should be safe here.
Bad example: No Mercy, chapter 3: The infamous manhole (there are actually two manholes) in the gas tank room under the demolished gas station. We've all seen the last survivor get grabbed by a smoker there. It can happen to even the best of teams. The manhole is out in the open, there's no cover to be had, and you can't use the "stand opposite the hole" trick because the direction you'll get pulled in can be hard to predict. The only really safe approach here is to kill the smoker right before hopping down so you can be sure there isn't one standing by to grab the last survivor.
So to summarise, if you need to close off backtracking, try to make sure that the survivors can move past the point of no return relatively safely. The danger should be there, but it should primarily be to careless survivors.
Example #1: A winding corridor in pitch black is both linear and confusing. The level's not quite pitch black, but most of the time you need your torch on. The main route is linear, but it has lots of tangents coming off it to result in dead ends. Some of these forks are lit in red, some not really lit at all and others lit just like the critical path. It's confusing, even though to look at it from a bird's eye view it's easy.
Example #2: A linear route that zigzags from right to left but you don't know if it's first left then right or vice versa is confusing initially. Because there's debris everywhere (not just where a route is blocked off) there's too much visual clutter to distinguish the path you need to take. There's no lighting or visual landmarking along the zig-zag route, nothing to invite you to go right first then left (in fact, there's a burning pile of rubble on the left IIRC).
Play the level and you might understand how the two don't contradict eachother.