are static meshes taken into account when occlusion culling is being calculated, as in can a large mesh stop things behind it being rendered? I Loved that about UT3. very little bsp brushes were actually needed when making maps.
From watching the NS2 trailer numerous times the engine has many resemblances to the Doom 3 engine, with its own spectacular indoor environments, plus the smooth animations of the monsters. Was there any inspiration here from Doom 3 for NS2?
I could absolutely live with pseudo-doom 3 (probably even better from the looks of it) graphics for NS2.
Does it support real-time photon tracing and volumetic gunk fluidics (Also appliable to spilled alien guts, etc...)?
I really doubt they did their engine 100% from scratch. Most likely they've used some popular libraries for some really really boring stuff (FreeImage, wxWidgets...?).
(And no, UWE is NOT the next VALVe for one simple reason: They don't have a golden crowbar.)
<!--quoteo(post=1712925:date=Jun 18 2009, 02:39 PM:name=Price)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Price @ Jun 18 2009, 02:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1712925"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->{New Engine, no-behindwall-kills??} I am sure some of you know the bad thing withe the old quake engine with NS1, you run (as alien) behind a wall but you still get hit by a marine, because your "hitbox" is behind you. Thats not only the Half-life Engine, i don't know but the same thing happens in every "new" source-engine game. If you running behind a wall, you "hitbox" is running behind you.
Whats with the NS2 engine? How is the netcode? I mean its the first Game/Engine of the UWE Team, it must be a challenge.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I doubt this is possible. The logistics of a good netcode is based on "my" computer. The game has to present a consistant representation of your location to me, and my interaction with that location needs to be taken into consideration. There is always going to be some inconsistancy introduced with latency, and the current method makes the most sense.
If I'm a marine shooting you and I put 10 bullets into you before you get behind cover, you die. Because of latency, the difference between your input and my input can be up to 100-400ms (or more), which means that on my screen, you got shot, on your screen, you're behind cover. The fact is you were dead before you got behind cover, you just weren't updated with that fact yet. This method favors the party that's moving... In that, a marine coming around a corner has 100-400ms to kill a skulk before his "re-action" has him move. The reverse is also true.
The alternative is much worse... If on my screen I'm shooting you, but it doesn't count because on your screen you're behind cover... then what looks like a kill to me ends up being nothing at all. Can you imagine the logic? My client: "I hit him!", your client: "I was behind cover!", server: "ummm.... skulk lives!". Or worse still is the original netcode... My shots only hit you if it did on the server, and neither of our clients are correct. The effect in those days was that I had to shoot where you were going to be in 200ms... not where you are "now".
As long as they stick to the current method of netcode, we'll be fine.
<!--quoteo(post=1715945:date=Jul 6 2009, 09:59 AM:name=Avata)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Avata @ Jul 6 2009, 09:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1715945"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Or worse still is the original netcode... My shots only hit you if it did on the server, and neither of our clients are correct. The effect in those days was that I had to shoot where you were going to be in 200ms... not where you are "now".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ahhh the good ol' days trying to snipe in the original Unreal Tournament. XD
<!--quoteo(post=1712925:date=Jun 19 2009, 05:39 AM:name=Price)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Price @ Jun 19 2009, 05:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1712925"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->{New Engine, no-behindwall-kills??} I am sure some of you know the bad thing withe the old quake engine with NS1, you run (as alien) behind a wall but you still get hit by a marine, because your "hitbox" is behind you. Thats not only the Half-life Engine, i don't know but the same thing happens in every "new" source-engine game. If you running behind a wall, you "hitbox" is running behind you.
Whats with the NS2 engine? How is the netcode? I mean its the first Game/Engine of the UWE Team, it must be a challenge.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That is because of client>server>client lag, go play LAN NS and it will never happen.
It's not really your "hitbox running behind you", rather the marine already fired before you went around the corner. Just took a while for the server to authenticate it and update to you.
Or is it that the marine fired before <b>they</b> saw you go around the corner? :o ;)
-- EDIT -- Actually I have a serious question, we were treated to a very nice 'dynamic lighting' video cast a while back, I was just wonder quite how dynamic the lighting was going to be.
More specifically, will level designers be able to have moving light sources? along set paths, and if so, straight point to point or will curved paths be an option?
Will we be able to have more than a few lights in one area turning on and off without killing the game?
Presumably because of the nature of lighting already shown, there's going none of the horrible blotchy-shadows you get with flashing / varying intensity lights / flame effects in source / goldsrc. Following from this, will there be some pre-set light effects other than on and off?
Could we for example have a texture with variable alpha (say lava) and put a big orange light inside it so we get shadow patterns on the wall? Or even will we be able to set the texture to emissive and achieve a similar effect?
Essentially, quite how powerful - dynamically speaking - is the lighting system, and what are some of the things it can't do?
<!--quoteo(post=1712960:date=Jun 18 2009, 08:31 PM:name=monopolowa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (monopolowa @ Jun 18 2009, 08:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1712960"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For someone familiar with Hammer, what kind of learning curve will there be on the mapping tools shipped with the game?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well being someone who used hammer for some NS1 and CS1.6 mapping, the idea behind it is pretty simple. You have blocks (called brushes) and stack 'em together to make rooms. Of course it's a little more advanced than that when you want to make curves or special brushes (called entities) like windows or rotating doors and things. Then you also have to learn about r_speeds (render speeds), but that comes with experience. However, it's beautiful how simple or advanced you can be with it. Take a look at siege007, a map that many would say is fun but the map may have taken maybe a week to make. And then think about machina, I still can't even begin to imagine how long that mother took to make cause holy crap it's crazy!
Probably the hardest thing for me with the old hammer when I first started was just to get the damn thing configured properly. And then you also had to worry about the batch compiler... And then the new source hammer confused me because it was too easy to configure. Unlike the old version, it would start up properly set for your mods (or at least for CS:S it did). I never quite fully understand how to choose what textures I wanted to map with as lots of customs loaded up without my choosing, and I really wanted to continue using the batch compiler.
However the NS2 editor will most likely be easier to use than both of these I'd expect. It requires absolutely no compiling (so goodbye batch compiler and hammer's built in crap compiler), and I'm pretty sure it's aimed at giving the hammer crowd a familiar bit of territory.
And to pimp my map a little bit just click on the image in my signature. It is an open source work after all!
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited August 2009
"We've talked about frameless windowed mode but don't really understand the point of"
You also have mutliple monitors setup in your office and you lot are actually saying this! The point is, oh clueless ones :P It looks like a fullscreen game, but with all the benefits of fast desktop response and no desktop res changing... Seriously, WTF :D
Ah well at the very least it should support window mode! I hate Mercenaries 2 for the lack of window mode damnit!
quick question, what is the deal on maximum dynamic lights, environment lights etc... The dynamic shadow casters...
<!--quoteo(post=1721025:date=Aug 6 2009, 03:11 PM:name=Invader_Scoot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Invader_Scoot @ Aug 6 2009, 03:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1721025"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well being someone who used hammer for some NS1 and CS1.6 mapping, the idea behind it is pretty simple. You have blocks (called brushes) and stack 'em together to make rooms. Of course it's a little more advanced than that when you want to make curves or special brushes (called entities) like windows or rotating doors and things. Then you also have to learn about r_speeds (render speeds), but that comes with experience. However, it's beautiful how simple or advanced you can be with it. Take a look at siege007, a map that many would say is fun but the map may have taken maybe a week to make. And then think about machina, I still can't even begin to imagine how long that mother took to make cause holy crap it's crazy!
Probably the hardest thing for me with the old hammer when I first started was just to get the damn thing configured properly. And then you also had to worry about the batch compiler... And then the new source hammer confused me because it was too easy to configure. Unlike the old version, it would start up properly set for your mods (or at least for CS:S it did). I never quite fully understand how to choose what textures I wanted to map with as lots of customs loaded up without my choosing, and I really wanted to continue using the batch compiler.
However the NS2 editor will most likely be easier to use than both of these I'd expect. It requires absolutely no compiling (so goodbye batch compiler and hammer's built in crap compiler), and I'm pretty sure it's aimed at giving the hammer crowd a familiar bit of territory.
And to pimp my map a little bit just click on the image in my signature. It is an open source work after all!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I did say I was already familiar with Hammer. I did some NS1 mapping back in the day (never completed anything so don't ask what), and right now I'm working on a campaign for L4D with a friend ;) And really, pretty much all 3d modeling programs (of which mapping is a subset) have a lot in common so I wouldn't expect it to be TOO too hard. It's certainly exciting that compiling will be unnecessary, but that doesn't really answer any questions about difficulty learning the editor.
I guess I'll just have to wait for the alpha and see for myself.
Sorta changing the subject away from the Map Editor I'd like to ask if it's possible that we could see some form of benchmarks for the game on a couple different computers. I definitely get the feeling that my 7900GTO is a bit aged (which it doesn't help that I run dual monitors...) and I might need to do a whole bunch of upgrades on this machine to really get it ready for NS2. I guess the Alpha could work as a performance testing platform, however...
aeroripperJoin Date: 2005-02-25Member: 42471NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
edited August 2009
I am imagining someone will make a 'benchmarking' map with the alpha so people can see how it runs on their computer. I'm thinking rooms with special dynamic lighting, particle effects, ragdolls etc...
I wonder what the Options in setting up the Details ingame are. Will the Graphical Options be limited to some settings only like Resolution, AA, Texture-Shader Details or will the be many options?
I want to know if the dimensions ( map grid ) in the new NS2 engine are equal to the Hammer Source, for example in that engine the player has 72 units in height.
Mr. EpicJoin Date: 2003-08-01Member: 18660Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1724081:date=Aug 20 2009, 07:22 PM:name=Invader_Scoot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Invader_Scoot @ Aug 20 2009, 07:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1724081"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sorta changing the subject away from the Map Editor I'd like to ask if it's possible that we could see some form of benchmarks for the game on a couple different computers. I definitely get the feeling that my 7900GTO is a bit aged (which is doesn't help that I run dual monitors...) and I might need to do a whole bunch of upgrades on this machine to really get it ready for NS2.
I guess the Alpha could work as a performance testing platform, however...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> that is a great idea, we could have a thread with benchmark results so people who don't have the alpha can see where their system falls in line.
<!--quoteo(post=1725160:date=Aug 26 2009, 11:29 PM:name=monopolowa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (monopolowa @ Aug 26 2009, 11:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1725160"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> How well does the map editor handle circular or curved surfaces? rotation? Both of these can be a pain in Hammer :P
+1 for many advanced graphical settings, btw <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yea I like that know that to and will there be some sort of brush limit?
I would also like to know what kind of grid measurement system you use for the engine? same as Source? If modders could know this before the alpha/tools is release they could start working on props for their levels.
<!--quoteo(post=1725664:date=Aug 31 2009, 03:24 PM:name=LordHorusNL)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (LordHorusNL @ Aug 31 2009, 03:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1725664"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I would also like to know what kind of grid measurement system you use for the engine? same as Source? If modders could know this before the alpha/tools is release they could start working on props for their levels.
Thanks<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Does it matter? I mean you can scale models very easily, just build them to relative scale, so everything looks right against a proportioned human or something, then scale it precisely later on.
<!--quoteo(post=1725664:date=Sep 1 2009, 01:24 AM:name=LordHorusNL)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (LordHorusNL @ Sep 1 2009, 01:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1725664"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I would also like to know what kind of grid measurement system you use for the engine? same as Source? If modders could know this before the alpha/tools is release they could start working on props for their levels.
Thanks<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> There's a mapping thread where this is answered.
But no, it's different. <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/wiki/index.php/Natural_Selection_2_Mapping" target="_blank">watch this page</a>
Comments
I was reading somewhere about: Raknet and FMOD.
I could absolutely live with pseudo-doom 3 (probably even better from the looks of it) graphics for NS2.
What is the <b>name</b> of the engine?
What is the <b>name</b> of the engine?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They're gonna call it "Darwin". (if you were following the Facebook posts)
I still think they should call it "Honeycomb"
I really doubt they did their engine 100% from scratch. Most likely they've used some popular libraries for some really really boring stuff (FreeImage, wxWidgets...?).
(And no, UWE is NOT the next VALVe for one simple reason: They don't have a golden crowbar.)
I am sure some of you know the bad thing withe the old quake engine with NS1, you run (as alien) behind a wall but you still get hit by a marine, because your "hitbox" is behind you.
Thats not only the Half-life Engine, i don't know but the same thing happens in every "new" source-engine game.
If you running behind a wall, you "hitbox" is running behind you.
Whats with the NS2 engine?
How is the netcode?
I mean its the first Game/Engine of the UWE Team, it must be a challenge.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I doubt this is possible. The logistics of a good netcode is based on "my" computer. The game has to present a consistant representation of your location to me, and my interaction with that location needs to be taken into consideration. There is always going to be some inconsistancy introduced with latency, and the current method makes the most sense.
If I'm a marine shooting you and I put 10 bullets into you before you get behind cover, you die. Because of latency, the difference between your input and my input can be up to 100-400ms (or more), which means that on my screen, you got shot, on your screen, you're behind cover. The fact is you were dead before you got behind cover, you just weren't updated with that fact yet. This method favors the party that's moving... In that, a marine coming around a corner has 100-400ms to kill a skulk before his "re-action" has him move. The reverse is also true.
The alternative is much worse... If on my screen I'm shooting you, but it doesn't count because on your screen you're behind cover... then what looks like a kill to me ends up being nothing at all. Can you imagine the logic? My client: "I hit him!", your client: "I was behind cover!", server: "ummm.... skulk lives!". Or worse still is the original netcode... My shots only hit you if it did on the server, and neither of our clients are correct. The effect in those days was that I had to shoot where you were going to be in 200ms... not where you are "now".
As long as they stick to the current method of netcode, we'll be fine.
Ahhh the good ol' days trying to snipe in the original Unreal Tournament. XD
I am sure some of you know the bad thing withe the old quake engine with NS1, you run (as alien) behind a wall but you still get hit by a marine, because your "hitbox" is behind you.
Thats not only the Half-life Engine, i don't know but the same thing happens in every "new" source-engine game.
If you running behind a wall, you "hitbox" is running behind you.
Whats with the NS2 engine?
How is the netcode?
I mean its the first Game/Engine of the UWE Team, it must be a challenge.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is because of client>server>client lag, go play LAN NS and it will never happen.
-- EDIT --
Actually I have a serious question, we were treated to a very nice 'dynamic lighting' video cast a while back, I was just wonder quite how dynamic the lighting was going to be.
More specifically, will level designers be able to have moving light sources? along set paths, and if so, straight point to point or will curved paths be an option?
Will we be able to have more than a few lights in one area turning on and off without killing the game?
Presumably because of the nature of lighting already shown, there's going none of the horrible blotchy-shadows you get with flashing / varying intensity lights / flame effects in source / goldsrc.
Following from this, will there be some pre-set light effects other than on and off?
Could we for example have a texture with variable alpha (say lava) and put a big orange light inside it so we get shadow patterns on the wall? Or even will we be able to set the texture to emissive and achieve a similar effect?
Essentially, quite how powerful - dynamically speaking - is the lighting system, and what are some of the things it can't do?
Was lua used as the primary language for the entire project? Did you code the engine entirely in lua or did you use C / C++ aswell?
I ask this because I'm wondering if I should continue learning C++ ( it's extremely difficult ) or if I should start learning lua.
p.s. decoda looks really awesome!
However... if you have an interest in programming your best bet is to continue learning C++...
So learn both, hehe.
Will the engine have some kind of 3D-sky function/support similar to the source engine?
Well being someone who used hammer for some NS1 and CS1.6 mapping, the idea behind it is pretty simple. You have blocks (called brushes) and stack 'em together to make rooms. Of course it's a little more advanced than that when you want to make curves or special brushes (called entities) like windows or rotating doors and things. Then you also have to learn about r_speeds (render speeds), but that comes with experience. However, it's beautiful how simple or advanced you can be with it. Take a look at siege007, a map that many would say is fun but the map may have taken maybe a week to make. And then think about machina, I still can't even begin to imagine how long that mother took to make cause holy crap it's crazy!
Probably the hardest thing for me with the old hammer when I first started was just to get the damn thing configured properly. And then you also had to worry about the batch compiler... And then the new source hammer confused me because it was too easy to configure. Unlike the old version, it would start up properly set for your mods (or at least for CS:S it did). I never quite fully understand how to choose what textures I wanted to map with as lots of customs loaded up without my choosing, and I really wanted to continue using the batch compiler.
However the NS2 editor will most likely be easier to use than both of these I'd expect. It requires absolutely no compiling (so goodbye batch compiler and hammer's built in crap compiler), and I'm pretty sure it's aimed at giving the hammer crowd a familiar bit of territory.
And to pimp my map a little bit just click on the image in my signature. It is an open source work after all!
You also have mutliple monitors setup in your office and you lot are actually saying this! The point is, oh clueless ones :P It looks like a fullscreen game, but with all the benefits of fast desktop response and no desktop res changing... Seriously, WTF :D
Ah well at the very least it should support window mode! I hate Mercenaries 2 for the lack of window mode damnit!
quick question, what is the deal on maximum dynamic lights, environment lights etc... The dynamic shadow casters...
Probably the hardest thing for me with the old hammer when I first started was just to get the damn thing configured properly. And then you also had to worry about the batch compiler... And then the new source hammer confused me because it was too easy to configure. Unlike the old version, it would start up properly set for your mods (or at least for CS:S it did). I never quite fully understand how to choose what textures I wanted to map with as lots of customs loaded up without my choosing, and I really wanted to continue using the batch compiler.
However the NS2 editor will most likely be easier to use than both of these I'd expect. It requires absolutely no compiling (so goodbye batch compiler and hammer's built in crap compiler), and I'm pretty sure it's aimed at giving the hammer crowd a familiar bit of territory.
And to pimp my map a little bit just click on the image in my signature. It is an open source work after all!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I did say I was already familiar with Hammer. I did some NS1 mapping back in the day (never completed anything so don't ask what), and right now I'm working on a campaign for L4D with a friend ;)
And really, pretty much all 3d modeling programs (of which mapping is a subset) have a lot in common so I wouldn't expect it to be TOO too hard. It's certainly exciting that compiling will be unnecessary, but that doesn't really answer any questions about difficulty learning the editor.
I guess I'll just have to wait for the alpha and see for myself.
Will the Graphical Options be limited to some settings only like Resolution, AA, Texture-Shader Details or will the be many options?
<a href="http://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Dimensions" target="_blank">http://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Dimensions</a>
I guess the Alpha could work as a performance testing platform, however...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
that is a great idea, we could have a thread with benchmark results so people who don't have the alpha can see where their system falls in line.
+1 for many advanced graphical settings, btw
How well does the map editor handle circular or curved surfaces? rotation? Both of these can be a pain in Hammer :P
+1 for many advanced graphical settings, btw
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yea I like that know that to and will there be some sort of brush limit?
Thanks
Thanks<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Does it matter? I mean you can scale models very easily, just build them to relative scale, so everything looks right against a proportioned human or something, then scale it precisely later on.
Thanks<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There's a mapping thread where this is answered.
But no, it's different.
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/wiki/index.php/Natural_Selection_2_Mapping" target="_blank">watch this page</a>