How flexible is the engine client-side?
ReK
Join Date: 2004-08-30 Member: 31058Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver
Join Date: 2004-08-30 Member: 31058Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver
<div class="IPBDescription">old######s get ready for a flame war...</div>What I would like to know is how similar is the NS2 engine to hl and source, client-side? There are, of course, differences, but seeing as the team has almost all of their experience in one or both, and the game was originally intended to be written for source, I'm sure their must be a lot of similarities. The specific area I'm wondering about is console scripting.
I think the single largest reason why I don't play NS anymore is mp_bs. It's not that I can't play with it on - I can. It's that, after literally years of customising my controls and tweaking certain actions I amassed quite a large collection of personal scripts (one conspicuous absence was a pistol script. I'm not opposed to it like some people are, I just could never write one that felt better than firing it manually). Playing with those scripts for years, in casual pubs, IRC pugs and in CAL as well, my unique config became reflex for me. When I play on a bs 1 server, a huge chunk of that is gone. I can still play, and I still play better than your average pubber even with that handicap, but it's just not fun. The game itself can still be fun of course, but not when I'm constantly moving to do something and realising halfway through that my controls are ass-backwards.
For me NS was (and probably always will be) the best game I have ever played. Of course I've played ones that looked better. I've played ones that were more imaginative (hard to find, but they're out there). Pick a single area and there are other games that do it better. None of them can hold a candle to NS. It just has the perfect balance of all the important things. I have never had more fun with a game for even 2 months, let alone the years that I played NS. I have already pre-ordered the SE NS2 and sent another $50 over the constie program to make sure flay et al have enough ramen to finish NS2 for me.
NS2 is going to feel like NS1 for me. Yes it's a different game in a different engine, but that won't escape the fact that it's NS. I will of course play NS2 and enjoy it with or without scripting, but having it there makes it instantly ten times as fun. I love tinkering with my controls for the same reason I love tinkering with my OS, or compiling my own drivers, or soldering crap onto my eee pc.
So guys, is their console scripting in the NS2 engine? How flexible is it? Please, please tell me you won't be making anything like mp_bs (blocking exploits, like the old _special, of course, but that shouldn't be a server-side variable anyway, it should be blocked in the engine).
As for what I mean by 'flexible,' can I do something like this skulk leap script in NS2?
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->alias w5 "wait; wait; wait; wait; wait"
+mouse2 "slot 3; w5; +attack"
-mouse2 "-attack; w5; lastinv"<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
I think the single largest reason why I don't play NS anymore is mp_bs. It's not that I can't play with it on - I can. It's that, after literally years of customising my controls and tweaking certain actions I amassed quite a large collection of personal scripts (one conspicuous absence was a pistol script. I'm not opposed to it like some people are, I just could never write one that felt better than firing it manually). Playing with those scripts for years, in casual pubs, IRC pugs and in CAL as well, my unique config became reflex for me. When I play on a bs 1 server, a huge chunk of that is gone. I can still play, and I still play better than your average pubber even with that handicap, but it's just not fun. The game itself can still be fun of course, but not when I'm constantly moving to do something and realising halfway through that my controls are ass-backwards.
For me NS was (and probably always will be) the best game I have ever played. Of course I've played ones that looked better. I've played ones that were more imaginative (hard to find, but they're out there). Pick a single area and there are other games that do it better. None of them can hold a candle to NS. It just has the perfect balance of all the important things. I have never had more fun with a game for even 2 months, let alone the years that I played NS. I have already pre-ordered the SE NS2 and sent another $50 over the constie program to make sure flay et al have enough ramen to finish NS2 for me.
NS2 is going to feel like NS1 for me. Yes it's a different game in a different engine, but that won't escape the fact that it's NS. I will of course play NS2 and enjoy it with or without scripting, but having it there makes it instantly ten times as fun. I love tinkering with my controls for the same reason I love tinkering with my OS, or compiling my own drivers, or soldering crap onto my eee pc.
So guys, is their console scripting in the NS2 engine? How flexible is it? Please, please tell me you won't be making anything like mp_bs (blocking exploits, like the old _special, of course, but that shouldn't be a server-side variable anyway, it should be blocked in the engine).
As for what I mean by 'flexible,' can I do something like this skulk leap script in NS2?
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->alias w5 "wait; wait; wait; wait; wait"
+mouse2 "slot 3; w5; +attack"
-mouse2 "-attack; w5; lastinv"<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
Comments
ALSO: When will these forums get fixed?
I won't get into my opinion on scripting (I like to write scripts albeit sparingly) so I'll skip to my opinion of what should be implemented.
Pure cvar on the server side. Admin/owners want the game to played vanilla on their server? Their choice, they set it. You want to use scripts? Go on a script enabled serer. Simple enough. It worked well then, it'll work well now.
The short answer is that we don't know. While it's safe to assume the team is well versed in the Valve products, Max (the engine programmer) has worked for other companies and developed custom products before, so it's not necessarily going to bear similarities. I'd assume that quite a bit of the engine will be exposed, since most of the game elements are coded in Lua. Personally, I hope that most game mechanics <i>allow</i> but don't <i>require</i> serious scripting and customization. Not sure if that squares with providing a deep skill based gameplay, though. We'll see.
Since Charlie and Company have their own engine, I sense they will craft NS exactly the way they envision it, and that is without client side scripts. Yes, it was extremely fun to craft a handy-dandy commander or gorge building script, but I have a feeling we wont have permission to play in that room anymore. I predict that this time around, server side scripting will be the next big thing, and in the same way we saw customized versions of WoW, Starcraft, and Warcraft, NS will have enough flavors for everyone to enjoy.
- just my observations
NS2 shouldn't have the engine quirks that the HL engine has (wall strafing, bhop, slope jumping), but should intentionally include some sort of skill based movement mechanics into the game itself.
Our ideals are different then. There's no possible way that the team could satisfy every little voice asking for this or that feature. For example: my crouch control was a toggle long before they added the option to have it that way in menus.
<!--QuoteBegin-1hrsleep+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (1hrsleep)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Pure cvar on the server side. Admin/owners want the game to played vanilla on their server? Their choice, they set it. You want to use scripts? Go on a script enabled serer. Simple enough. It worked well then, it'll work well now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A fair approach. On paper it even sounds good. The problem is, it didn't work well. Admittedly, this was partly due to someone who I will forever curse, who put the comment "// block abusive console scripts (wait, special, etc.)?" for the variable in the default server.cfg. The result of this is that uninformed server admins will, of course, turn it on without realising how misleading that statement (question?) is. Being the age the game is, few old-timers who actually know what a script is are around to inform people anymore, and so almost all NS servers have it turned on.
I have to admit though, I just don't understand why a server admin would particularly care about non-abusive client-side scripts. What difference does it make? Maybe you can explain it to me.
<!--QuoteBegin-noncomposmentis+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (noncomposmentis)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Personally, I hope that most game mechanics allow but don't require serious scripting and customization. Not sure if that squares with providing a deep skill based gameplay, though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's exactly what I want as well. However, I don't believe scripts have any bearing on skill whatsoever. NS is a game of strategy, more than reflex. Just look at an aimbotter in a pub. He always goes marine, and can only ever 'win' in co games. That's not my idea of fun, or skill. Take CAL for instance. I was notorious for my huge config files (all of which were CAL-legal and I hosted them publicly and allowed anyone to use some or all of them) yet I'll be the first to admit that there were players who were far better than me, some who also used scripts, and some who didn't.
<!--QuoteBegin-MrRadicalEd+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MrRadicalEd)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->mp_bs was bs from the moment of its' very inception. Looking back, it was a flammable lid to keep the run away engine holes from spoiling the game that caught fire and highlighted the very stigma of scripts even though scripts were still usable in a mp_bs environment.
Since Charlie and Company have their own engine, I sense they will craft NS exactly the way they envision it, and that is without client side scripts. Yes, it was extremely fun to craft a handy-dandy commander or gorge building script, but I have a feeling we wont have permission to play in that room anymore. I predict that this time around, server side scripting will be the next big thing, and in the same way we saw customized versions of WoW, Starcraft, and Warcraft, NS will have enough flavors for everyone to enjoy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your first paragraph: Yes and no. It definitely was bs from the first, but what exploits did it keep a lid on? Off the top of my head there was:
- Bunny Hopping: You could easily learn to do without scripts, and was in fact included as a game mechanic on the alien side. The script only made timing the jumps easier.
- Wall Running: So simple I can't think of how a script could help you.
- Wiggle Walking: Can be done with or without a script. The script could do it a lot better but would lock up your controls while it was running, which is unacceptable unless you're just running to cap a node at the start of the game or something.
And no, scripts could not still be used with bs1. Sure some of the retardedly simple ones could, but bs 1 gutted the useful commands. You could rewrite some to work, but it was like having having your typewriter taken away and replaced with an autistic kid who you were supposed to dictate to.
The second: Yes, they will craft it to be as close to their vision as possible. Whether or not that vision includes easy customisability or not, I don't know. I hope it does.
What commander and gorge building scripts? My comm config file was one of the smallest out of any of them. In fact, it had a single script, that would let me set my spacebar to do a few things: either spam meds or ammo, or the default function. And the gorge config was even smaller. There was nothing unique in it at all, actually.
I think that's part of the problem. It seems a lot of people don't know the extent of what scripts can do and have been led to believe that they can be far more than they are. There is no bhopping script, there's a 3jump. There is no commander script, but I can bind my spacebar to impulse 125 in order to drop a medpack with it. There is no gorge building script, but I can make it so that e is a toggle and it also toggles on my minimap at the same time so that i can still strafe jump around the thing I'm building without hitting the 3-key limit on (almost) all keyboards.
Server-side scripting was a large part of NS1 too. I did that as well. I had more than my fair share of threads stickied in the amxx forums over at modns.org. I certainly hope that it will continue to be a part of NS2, and the possibilities inherent in a LUA-based engine make me drool regularly.
<!--QuoteBegin-aeroripper+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (aeroripper)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The ideal is not even having the need to use outside scripts. When I was big into the game I had different configs for every alien (sensitivity and bhop/non bhop mostly) and another for marines. They were needed just to get a real comfortable control scheme for each class and play it well. This is strictly control related and not the more exploitative scripts out there (wigglewalk, lerk rate hacking, etc...)
NS2 shouldn't have the engine quirks that the HL engine has (wall strafing, bhop, slope jumping), but should intentionally include some sort of skill based movement mechanics into the game itself.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're partly right. I had my own system for each class as well, which included sens settings and 3jump toggles, etc. It was more than just that though. I had replaced lastinv, which allowed me to use that leap script, for example, and yet still have q grab me my para afterwards. Or how I changed e into a toggle that also brought up my transparent minimap, so I could monitor the map while I was stuck building something.
You're dead right on your last point. NS is a game of skill, not how fast you can make your crosshair point at someone's head. We used holes in the engine and unfixable bugs and called it skill when you learned how to use them to your advantage properly. That kind of skill-based gameplay is something I definitely don't want absent from NS2, but now that they're writing their own engine, they shouldn't have to use hackjobs to get the same effect.
Back in the day when there were impulses to such commander actions like researching and dropping tech, I personally had a <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=27862&hl=commander+config" target="_blank">script</a>, that selected items out of the commander menu and I basically had to just click my way through to drop/confirm. It was driven through a text based menu with a few dedicated hotkeys. Similarly, I had a gorge build script that was part of a larger context sensitive script to select alien evolution and what buildings I dropped with only a few keys and memorization. Later, Charlie removed many impulse commands from the game, and I was left with mementos of the past.
<b>*</b><i><!--coloro:gray--><span style="color:gray"><!--/coloro-->This was before 3.0f in '04 when mp_bs and the commander hotkeys were included- part of Charlie's master plan to infuse common scripts in to NS<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></i>
"Today", I can still use all my scripts in a mp_bs server with the exception of the "+" commands; however, that is only a minor inconvenience for myself. If I was so inclined, I could do something to have multiple keys pressed at the same time and bypass mp_bs completely, but I like the control I have now.