<!--quoteo(post=1711964:date=Jun 12 2009, 08:01 AM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Swiftspear @ Jun 12 2009, 08:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1711964"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hmmm, I think computers could be trained to be be better at translation then your average professional level translator... probably not in real time over the net at this point, but it is within the capability of an algorithm to understand sentence context's and make translation decisions. It'd take some really smart people a long time to make it happen though, and it's a task that has to be done for every unique combination of languages. The best of the best human translators and language experts will exceed your digital translator, mostly because they have an additional level of intelligence that allows them to cross compare context of the sentence with context of the translation situation and make the translations more or less involved based on the appropriateness of the conversation in question.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->What you're missing is that for these algorithms to work they have to constantly evolve to keep up with the day-to-day zonal, regional and global changes of language. Take a word like 'queer' or 'troll' and look at how it was used 50/20 years ago versus how it is used now given the new cultural landscapes. A translator would not only have to be hooked up to some sort of digitalised dynamic dictionary in order to embrace new neologisms, but to a sophisticated evolutionary library of usages for any given word or expression. A (human) translator's job is to understand the nuances of language, from double-entendres to the gravity of one synonmym used over an other for whatever reason in any given circumstance. I think building a library that encompasses all these things as and when they come into effect would be more effort than engaging the services of a qualified (and human) professional.
Of course, if your aim is only to get the raw sense of the words as they appear in the sentence, without any regard for why the exact combination was chosen, then an artificial translator could probably serve that basic purpose in the not-too-distant future.
QuaunautThe longest seven days in history...Join Date: 2003-03-21Member: 14759Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1712218:date=Jun 13 2009, 06:44 PM:name=Crispy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Crispy @ Jun 13 2009, 06:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1712218"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What you're missing is that for these algorithms to work they have to constantly evolve to keep up with the day-to-day zonal, regional and global changes of language. Take a word like 'queer' or 'troll' and look at how it was used 50/20 years ago versus how it is used now given the new cultural landscapes. A translator would not only have to be hooked up to some sort of digitalised dynamic dictionary in order to embrace new neologisms, but to a sophisticated evolutionary library of usages for any given word or expression. A (human) translator's job is to understand the nuances of language, from double-entendres to the gravity of one synonmym used over an other for whatever reason in any given circumstance. I think building a library that encompasses all these things as and when they come into effect would be more effort than engaging the services of a qualified (and human) professional.
Of course, if your aim is only to get the raw sense of the words as they appear in the sentence, without any regard for why the exact combination was chosen, then an artificial translator could probably serve that basic purpose in the not-too-distant future.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But if we're going to move in that direction at all, isn't a database built off of phrases being translated across lines exactly how it's going to be accomplished? Waves being the first incarnation of the idea just seems fitting, if crazy ambitious for a search company.
<!--quoteo(post=1712218:date=Jun 13 2009, 08:44 PM:name=Crispy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Crispy @ Jun 13 2009, 08:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1712218"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What you're missing is that for these algorithms to work they have to constantly evolve to keep up with the day-to-day zonal, regional and global changes of language. Take a word like 'queer' or 'troll' and look at how it was used 50/20 years ago versus how it is used now given the new cultural landscapes. A translator would not only have to be hooked up to some sort of digitalised dynamic dictionary in order to embrace new neologisms, but to a sophisticated evolutionary library of usages for any given word or expression. A (human) translator's job is to understand the nuances of language, from double-entendres to the gravity of one synonmym used over an other for whatever reason in any given circumstance. I think building a library that encompasses all these things as and when they come into effect would be more effort than engaging the services of a qualified (and human) professional.
Of course, if your aim is only to get the raw sense of the words as they appear in the sentence, without any regard for why the exact combination was chosen, then an artificial translator could probably serve that basic purpose in the not-too-distant future.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Once again, it's complicated, but not impossible in my opinion, for a digital translator to "understand" the linguistic nuances between say a sentence like "we go to the mall" vs "to the mall, we go" and how the grammatical inference changes the mood of the phrase. It involves somewhat complex linguistic psychology, but in my opinion it is mathimatically expressible. I think at some point in the future we'll probably see bilingual professor level computer scientists effectively spending their careers creating and maintaining incredibly advanced and complex linguistic translation algorithms, and at that point your digital translator is going to be incredibly abstract in terms of the types of language they can handle with high levels of proficiency. In the distant future we may see learning libraries keeping track of dialog usage in media to automatically create new word usage patterns for translation systems.
<!--quoteo(post=1710268:date=Jun 4 2009, 11:25 PM:name=TychoCelchuuu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TychoCelchuuu @ Jun 4 2009, 11:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1710268"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And if you spoke French like Crispy you could call them on their BS! It would be the best of both worlds.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not fluent but I sort of do. I find the writing/reading difficult but if someone speaks it to me, sure. Just I'm used to listening to relatives who don't use any translator or taught grammar. So much French is so slang and shorterned in the real world.
moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=1710851:date=Jun 7 2009, 10:22 AM:name=That_Annoying_Kid)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (That_Annoying_Kid @ Jun 7 2009, 10:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1710851"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Moultano I broke your google bombing fix<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I haven't pushed the data in a while, so doesn't surprise me. Let me know the query though, and I'll add it to my test set. :P
I got my beta invite... seems interesting but I can't see the practicality... anyway if anyone didn't get an invite yet and wants one, pm me and you can has.
[edit] I should have specified, I need yer email address for the invites, and like Snark said below, I'm not sure they're invites as much as they are recommendations for invites. Like, you recommend someone, and as soon as Google decides they need another wave of testers, they let more of the recommendations in based on invite order or something...
seems like not many of the gadgets are up and running yet. No live instantaneous translations, etc. Looks pretty bare bones at the moment. I hope they integrate gmail into it at some point, because while I don't see much of a use for it at the moment, if it could do everything gmail could do PLUS collaboration, on the fly translations, integration with blogs and such, etc. then I'd have no reason not to use it...
<!--quoteo(post=1708907:date=May 31 2009, 01:50 PM:name=Quaunaut)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Quaunaut @ May 31 2009, 01:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1708907"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Say you and another person at work are on Google's Wave server. You end up talking about work. Collaborating on work projects <i>there</i>, instead of anywhere else. As others at your work join in and see you two on there, it'll slowly start becoming a place people work at instead of your work's servers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This assumes that people would start talking about work projects on a non-company system in the first place, something I imagine violates the policies of many large corporations.
<!--quoteo(post=1733915:date=Oct 25 2009, 03:09 AM:name=Sops)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sops @ Oct 25 2009, 03:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733915"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This assumes that people would start talking about work projects on a non-company system in the first place, something I imagine violates the policies of many large corporations.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I figure if it does have the potential for collaboration like they say it does, it won't be long before they package the server software to let companies run local versions like they do with Google Earth's server. For a few (ten) thousand dollars, of course.
so Wave is for collaboration, and in a perfect world people would use it to collaborate at work... however, it requires Chrome, which most people can't install at work since they don't have admin access to their PCs, or a Chrome IE plugin, which many people can't install at work since they don't have admin access to their PCs... sad.
<!--quoteo(post=1734357:date=Oct 28 2009, 11:38 PM:name=KungFuDiscoMonkey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KungFuDiscoMonkey @ Oct 28 2009, 11:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1734357"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You don't need Chrome you just need something that isn't IE.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> People who can't install Chrome at work because they need admin privs generally won't have any better luck with Firefox or Opera :(
<!--quoteo(post=1734445:date=Oct 29 2009, 04:51 PM:name=DiscoZombie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DiscoZombie @ Oct 29 2009, 04:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1734445"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->People who can't install Chrome at work because they need admin privs generally won't have any better luck with Firefox or Opera :(<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Right, but that doesn't mean that Chrome is a requirement ^^;
<!--quoteo(post=1734606:date=Oct 30 2009, 02:55 PM:name=Mullet)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mullet @ Oct 30 2009, 02:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1734606"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I have Google Wave. It <b>would</b> be cool, but I only have 1 contact :(<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe we need to start a google wave invite thread like we had with gmail? I guess first off, does it even have invites for you right now?
<!--quoteo(post=1734615:date=Oct 30 2009, 05:26 PM:name=Comprox)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Comprox @ Oct 30 2009, 05:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1734615"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Maybe we need to start a google wave invite thread like we had with gmail? I guess first off, does it even have invites for you right now?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not sure about how this works, either. I got one through an invite from a friend, but I don't have any invites to give out. I don't know if I'll get some later or what. The searches I did on it say that they gave out 100,000 passes to people and that current accounts could "recommend" their friends to bump them up in the lottery a bit.
<!--quoteo(post=1734868:date=Oct 30 2009, 07:58 PM:name=Rob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rob @ Oct 30 2009, 07:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1734868"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not sure about how this works, either. I got one through an invite from a friend, but I don't have any invites to give out. I don't know if I'll get some later or what. The searches I did on it say that they gave out 100,000 passes to people and that current accounts could "recommend" their friends to bump them up in the lottery a bit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah same here. I got my invite through a friend, and I haven't been able to find any way to invite others...I've heard that we will be able to when they allow more beta users though. I'd be happy to share some when that happens :)
I have a few invites left. If anyone wants one send me a PM with ye email address or something.
EDIT:
For clarification, I was accepted for the beta without being invited by another person which may explain why I have invites. If you have invites you should have something similar to the following wave:
<!--quoteo(post=1735417:date=Nov 2 2009, 11:13 AM:name=Thaldarin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thaldarin @ Nov 2 2009, 11:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1735417"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Thanks to Scythe- I have 20 invites. Private message me for one, just supply your e-mail address.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You invited me, in my wave inbox is 20 invites to send out. Beats me, but hey, you've helped by just passing it on.
Edit: Maybe I got so many because I have no friends on it? Who knows, just to show I'm not bull'ing or anything because I've heard the invites are like gold dust, below is what it says to me:
InsaneAnomalyJoin Date: 2002-05-13Member: 605Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts, Future Perfect Developer
I've been given to understand that they'll send out a new stream of invites after they increase their server capacity in order to handle the new users. Not sure if that's true though.
Comments
Of course, if your aim is only to get the raw sense of the words as they appear in the sentence, without any regard for why the exact combination was chosen, then an artificial translator could probably serve that basic purpose in the not-too-distant future.
Of course, if your aim is only to get the raw sense of the words as they appear in the sentence, without any regard for why the exact combination was chosen, then an artificial translator could probably serve that basic purpose in the not-too-distant future.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But if we're going to move in that direction at all, isn't a database built off of phrases being translated across lines exactly how it's going to be accomplished? Waves being the first incarnation of the idea just seems fitting, if crazy ambitious for a search company.
Of course, if your aim is only to get the raw sense of the words as they appear in the sentence, without any regard for why the exact combination was chosen, then an artificial translator could probably serve that basic purpose in the not-too-distant future.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Once again, it's complicated, but not impossible in my opinion, for a digital translator to "understand" the linguistic nuances between say a sentence like "we go to the mall" vs "to the mall, we go" and how the grammatical inference changes the mood of the phrase. It involves somewhat complex linguistic psychology, but in my opinion it is mathimatically expressible. I think at some point in the future we'll probably see bilingual professor level computer scientists effectively spending their careers creating and maintaining incredibly advanced and complex linguistic translation algorithms, and at that point your digital translator is going to be incredibly abstract in terms of the types of language they can handle with high levels of proficiency. In the distant future we may see learning libraries keeping track of dialog usage in media to automatically create new word usage patterns for translation systems.
I'm not fluent but I sort of do. I find the writing/reading difficult but if someone speaks it to me, sure. Just I'm used to listening to relatives who don't use any translator or taught grammar. So much French is so slang and shorterned in the real world.
I haven't pushed the data in a while, so doesn't surprise me. Let me know the query though, and I'll add it to my test set. :P
[edit] I should have specified, I need yer email address for the invites, and like Snark said below, I'm not sure they're invites as much as they are recommendations for invites. Like, you recommend someone, and as soon as Google decides they need another wave of testers, they let more of the recommendations in based on invite order or something...
seems like not many of the gadgets are up and running yet. No live instantaneous translations, etc. Looks pretty bare bones at the moment. I hope they integrate gmail into it at some point, because while I don't see much of a use for it at the moment, if it could do everything gmail could do PLUS collaboration, on the fly translations, integration with blogs and such, etc. then I'd have no reason not to use it...
I know I would have loved using it for all my group projects.
This assumes that people would start talking about work projects on a non-company system in the first place, something I imagine violates the policies of many large corporations.
I figure if it does have the potential for collaboration like they say it does, it won't be long before they package the server software to let companies run local versions like they do with Google Earth's server. For a few (ten) thousand dollars, of course.
<a href="http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2009/10/google-wave-we-came-we-saw-we-played-dd.ars?utm_source=rss" target="_blank">http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2009/10...?utm_source=rss</a>
D&D!
<a href="http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/99279/wave.jpg" target="_blank">http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/99279/wave.jpg</a>
People who can't install Chrome at work because they need admin privs generally won't have any better luck with Firefox or Opera :(
Right, but that doesn't mean that Chrome is a requirement ^^;
Maybe we need to start a google wave invite thread like we had with gmail? I guess first off, does it even have invites for you right now?
I'm not sure about how this works, either. I got one through an invite from a friend, but I don't have any invites to give out. I don't know if I'll get some later or what. The searches I did on it say that they gave out 100,000 passes to people and that current accounts could "recommend" their friends to bump them up in the lottery a bit.
Yeah same here. I got my invite through a friend, and I haven't been able to find any way to invite others...I've heard that we will be able to when they allow more beta users though. I'd be happy to share some when that happens :)
EDIT:
For clarification, I was accepted for the beta without being invited by another person which may explain why I have invites. If you have invites you should have something similar to the following wave:
<a href="http://img515.imageshack.us/i/googlewaveinvitethingy.png/" target="_blank"><img src="http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/1959/googlewaveinvitethingy.th.png" border="0" class="linked-image" /></a>
How the crimminy did you get so many?
And how did I help?
--Scythe--
Edit: Maybe I got so many because I have no friends on it? Who knows, just to show I'm not bull'ing or anything because I've heard the invites are like gold dust, below is what it says to me:
<img src="http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/7540/gwaveinvi.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />