Valve Nerfed Red

TychoCelchuuu

<div class="IPBDescription">TF2 Unbalanced</div>Anyone remember back when they released the <a href="http://www.steampowered.com/status/tf2/tf2_stats.php" target="_blank">TF2 gameplay stats</a> and we found out that Red had at least a ~5-10% higher win ratio on all the symmetrical maps? Well, check out the graph as it stands right now:

<img src="http://www.steampowered.com/status/tf2/public_graphs/roundwinpercentagebyteam.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />

Did Valve change how automatch works or did something incredibly weird happen? I still don't really understand how the original statistic came about but everywhere except ctf_well it seems to have evened out.

A_Boojum_Snark

I don't really trust their stats anymore. Average Distance and % Critical both have an un-labeled first place. The distance one... I don't think any official map even has a sight line that long. Fireaxe used to have an average distance of 400 or so, now that's normal and the kukri is up. The SMG is claimed to do >100 damage per hit on average, as well as having an average distance longer than the sniper rifle. Percentage of total damage dealt puts pipebombs at the top... yet grenade launcher has zero. While NEEDLES are listed in second place.

That's just this week. It seems every month when I think to look at it there is something different that's completely screwed up and untrustworthy.

Kouji_San

Yeah these stats are all my fault, I'm afraid. You know I haven't been playing for a month or so and I'm most of the time on the red team...

DOOManiac

According to the graph you just posted red is still winning most of the time on the symmetrical maps...

TychoCelchuuu

<!--quoteo(post=1705554:date=Apr 22 2009, 05:56 PM:name=DOOManiac)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DOOManiac @ Apr 22 2009, 05:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1705554"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->According to the graph you just posted red is still winning most of the time on the symmetrical maps...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's almost even though. Used to be close to 50% Red win, 40% Blu win, 10% tie or worse for all the symmetrical maps.

remi

Sorry to change the direction of this a little, but the new update reads...

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Added the ability for players to permanently delete items from their inventory using the new Backpack menu. This does not reset achievements. Once an item has been deleted it can never be re-earned<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Wtf?

X_Stickman

Granary is not a symmetrical map.


I don't care what anyone says. I always end up randoming to blu on that map and I have never once seen red's side of the map.

lolfighter

The whole "delete your items" thing strikes me as completely inane. The single use I can think of for this is griefing people if they go for a toilet break at a LAN party. I see absolutely no other use for this.

X_Stickman

<!--quoteo(post=1705580:date=Apr 23 2009, 11:16 AM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lolfighter @ Apr 23 2009, 11:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1705580"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The whole "delete your items" thing strikes me as completely inane. The single use I can think of for this is griefing people if they go for a toilet break at a LAN party. I see absolutely no other use for this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


The only practical reason I can think of them implementing it is that they're going to include some kind of item system where you only have a limited amount of storage space so you have to delete items to make room for new ones in some kind of odd iventory system.

But even that doesn't explain the "deleted items cannot be re-earned" part. That seems silly. What if you change your mind?

remi

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Game Changes
*Reworked the character loadout screens to support future features
*Added the ability for players to permanently delete items from their inventory using the new Backpack menu. This does not reset achievements. Once an item has been deleted it can never be re-earned
*Added the ability for players to reset their player stats using the Reset Stats button on the Stats menu. This does not reset achievements
*Added a "player_teleported" game event that is sent when a player is teleported
*Updated cp_junction_final to score per-capture instead of per-round. This fixes the map not working correctly with Tournament mode and the stopwatch
*Scouts now drop the flag if they're carrying it when they start phasing

Fixes
*Fixed instances where Steam connection problems would cause some unlocked items to be unusable
*Fixed the custom crosshair menu not clearing itself when "None" is selected for non-English clients
*Fixed warning about not being able to execute skill1.cfg when starting the dedicated server<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So we can have a bit more of an informed discussion, here's the rest of the changelog.
Any other ideas as to what the new features they are changing stuff to support could be?

Align

Hats...
Boots (of +3 jumping)? Medals? Bracers?
Coloured and patterned footprints?

There's no end to the possibilities.

lolfighter

They're also planning a new game mode, called larceny. In larceny, one red player is designated the treasure holder, symbolized by the medic model. The blu team must fight their way through hordes of weaker red players until they get to the medic, who must be killed using advanced tactics and teamwork (read: glorified games of "simon says"). Once the medic has been killed, every blu player gains fifty dkp (doctor kill points) which they can then bid, auction style, on whatever treasure the medic was holding (for instance, a rocket launcher that does ten points of extra damage). This can only be done once a week for each individual map, different maps reset at different points during the week.

remi

<!--quoteo(post=1705605:date=Apr 23 2009, 04:01 PM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lolfighter @ Apr 23 2009, 04:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1705605"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->They're also planning a new game mode, called larceny. In larceny, one red player is designated the treasure holder, symbolized by the medic model. The blu team must fight their way through hordes of weaker red players until they get to the medic, who must be killed using advanced tactics and teamwork (read: glorified games of "simon says"). Once the medic has been killed, every blu player gains fifty dkp (doctor kill points) which they can then bid, auction style, on whatever treasure the medic was holding (for instance, a rocket launcher that does ten points of extra damage). This can only be done once a week for each individual map, different maps reset at different points during the week.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You had me going until "simon says".

Crispy

Red team usually win because they are the most vibrant colour and can be seen most easily against red_ and blu_ texture sets. Valve might have toned down the colour slightly to see if it made a difference.

<!--quoteo(post=1705563:date=Apr 23 2009, 04:12 AM:name=X_Stickman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (X_Stickman @ Apr 23 2009, 04:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1705563"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Granary is not a symmetrical map.


I don't care what anyone says. I always end up randoming to blu on that map and I have never once seen red's side of the map.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Actually it's definitely not symmetrical. The areas around CP1 are quite different and in the centre area the sides aren't identical (the red side is a straight line along -and a lot closer to- the boundary, the blue side is wider and has hidey-holes -both sides also have a hidey hole next to the fence removing any claim to pure symmettry).

---

As for the changes, I don't know for sure what they are, but I feel very strongly it will be the final gimmick that puts me off playing TF2 for good. There's no way I'm playing TF2 WCIII mod.

TychoCelchuuu

<!--quoteo(post=1705651:date=Apr 24 2009, 05:40 AM:name=Crispy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Crispy @ Apr 24 2009, 05:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1705651"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Red team usually win because they are the most vibrant colour and can be seen most easily against red_ and blu_ texture sets. Valve might have toned down the colour slightly to see if it made a difference.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If Red is really easy to see, wouldn't that make them more likely to get shot? I don't see how being visible is a benefit instead of a drawback.

lolfighter

You've obviously never heard of the secret neon-green camouflage suit. When a soldier knows there is absolutely no way the enemy can possibly not see him, he fights all the harder to kill them before they can kill him. A well-hidden soldier may decide to hold his fire rather than shoot in hopes of not being noticed, and as Sun Tzu said, "he who shoots not with his rifle brings inauspicious portents."

NeonSpyder

Sun Tzu lived in 500 BC, he couldn't have made any quotes related to 'rifles'.

Unless the quote has somehow transmogrified from something to do with a bow and arrow. But I doubt it.

lolfighter

Oh man, you caught the one inconsistency in my masterfully concocted lie. I salute your acumen, sir!

locallyunscene

Wait, didn't Sun Tzu have an army of shriuken-rifle ninjas that, using secret technique, could be combined into the Ultra-Mega-Ninja-Shriuken-Rifle? Did anime lie to me?

*Edited for extra "ARRRR"s. Must have been left over from the piracy thread.*

lolfighter

Shriruken?

Crispy

<!--quoteo(post=1705665:date=Apr 24 2009, 01:35 PM:name=TychoCelchuuu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TychoCelchuuu @ Apr 24 2009, 01:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1705665"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If Red is really easy to see, wouldn't that make them more likely to get shot? I don't see how being visible is a benefit instead of a drawback.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Well if Red are easier to see, Blu are harder to see. Is it a bigger disadvantage to be seen or a bigger advantage to not be seen. I'd say it's a bigger advantage to not be seen as much.

X_Stickman

<!--quoteo(post=1705754:date=Apr 26 2009, 08:15 PM:name=Crispy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Crispy @ Apr 26 2009, 08:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1705754"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well if Red are easier to see, Blu are harder to see. Is it a bigger disadvantage to be seen or a bigger advantage to not be seen. I'd say it's a bigger advantage to not be seen as much.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


Well... yeah. And you're saying Red are easier to see. So why did they used to win, on average, 5-10% more rounds than blu (on regular maps, not payload or dustbowl).

Crispy

I have just talked myself into a corner. And I'm an itior (I'm actually such an idiot that's how I just spelt it). Someone do the right thing and put me out of my misery. The choice of punishment is up to you, but it must be fatal, and preceded by /

lolfighter

No, you don't deserve an easy way out like that. You are hereby condemned to suffer continued life.

spellman23

/must_post_20_thoughtful_balanced_unique_new_ns2_suggestions

TychoCelchuuu

<!--quoteo(post=1705766:date=Apr 26 2009, 08:55 PM:name=spellman23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spellman23 @ Apr 26 2009, 08:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1705766"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->/must_post_20_thoughtful_balanced_unique_new_ns2_suggestions<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is Crispy's standard operating procedure every week.

locallyunscene

<!--quoteo(post=1705767:date=Apr 26 2009, 10:00 PM:name=TychoCelchuuu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TychoCelchuuu @ Apr 26 2009, 10:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1705767"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is Crispy's standard operating procedure every week.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
TBH I can't think of a worse fate than relegating him to I&S Hell.

Bacillus

Hmm... Could some random joining effect by the auto-select or just by human nature affect the balance? This could lead to Red having one extra player in most uneven rounds.

Faskalia

Well, you could just make the enemy team appear red and your teammates appear blue for everyone. This would solve any unbalancing visibility issues.

spellman23

<!--quoteo(post=1705769:date=Apr 27 2009, 02:25 AM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (locallyunscene @ Apr 27 2009, 02:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1705769"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->TBH I can't think of a worse fate than relegating him to I&S Hell.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

That's one way to describe those forums.

We've unfortunately beaten to death all the really good ideas, so everything now is lame re-hash until new stuff comes from the devs.

remi

<!--quoteo(post=1705774:date=Apr 27 2009, 01:04 AM:name=Faskalia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Faskalia @ Apr 27 2009, 01:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1705774"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well, you could just make the enemy team appear red and your teammates appear blue for everyone. This would solve any unbalancing visibility issues.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And would prevent me from ever getting confused about if I should shoot the guy that just came through the door.