The thing this game has to offer: built in filtering of annoying stupid people. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" /> It looks way fun, but yet seems like it would take a much more capable mind than what is required for an RTS.
moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=1703638:date=Mar 27 2009, 03:24 PM:name=A_Boojum_Snark)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(A_Boojum_Snark @ Mar 27 2009, 03:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1703638"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The thing this game has to offer: built in filtering of annoying stupid people. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" /> It looks way fun, but yet seems like it would take a much more capable mind than what is required for an RTS.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I hope they keep the RTS mechanics as simple as possible so that most of the strategy is in the time-travel. It would be cool if RTS's had more of a common set of unit archetypes the way many FPS's have standard weapon archetypes so they could just stick to those.
That looks so mind-twistingly awesome. I loved how in the second video he says: "I can keep an eye on when my opponent is" <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/nerd-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::nerdy::" border="0" alt="nerd-fix.gif" />
moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
edited March 2009
<!--quoteo(post=1703641:date=Mar 27 2009, 04:09 PM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Kouji_San @ Mar 27 2009, 04:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1703641"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You sunk my battleship... Or did you!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> YOU UNDRINK MY MILKSHAKE! YOU INSTEAD DRINK YOUR OWN MILKSHAKE AFTER I RETROACTIVELY MOVED MY MILKSHAKE! YOU DRINK IT UP!!
Here's a quote from one of their playtests. <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Chris used a neat strategy against me in a memorable free-for-all game between him, Konrad, and myself. I launched a massive surprise attack on Chris's mining base, so he traveled back in time, prepared a large fleet to counter my attack and succeeded. However, in the present I acquired nukes and sent a nuke back to the end of the battle that destroyed his remaining fleet. Before it was over, he jumped back further in time, moved his mining base and undid his counter attack. Since his fleet had left the area and my army had conquered it, my nuclear blast from the future decimated my own forces! Right at that time, Konrad came at me with his forces, so I didn't have time to undo my nuclear blast.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
That right there has epic written all over it. I must say this game has potential, all be it somewhat mind boggling. Messing with your head and all <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
this hurts my brain, and yet it's so epically amzaing.
The question is, how do you resolve paradoxes properly? For example, if you have units sent back into time, they fight alongside themselves, but their past versions die and the other live, the others should vanish as well but that means they didn't win the battle...... gah!!!!!
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Q. Dude, paradoxes?! You know, grandfather paradox, units fighting side by side? A. Paradoxes can exist, but since the window of time is limited (e.g., an 8 minute window) all events eventually fall off. A paradox will oscillate between its different states until one of the states reaches the edge of the time window, leaving the players locked into one of the two states. Example: in the case of the grandfather paradox (where you use a factory to build a tank, have the tank time travel to before it was built, and then use it to destroy the factory) you will play with the paradox until it 'falls off' the time window, at which point there is a 50/50 chance of either the tank lives and the factory is destroyed, or the factory remains and the tank was never created. All paradoxes are nicely resolved with time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Theoretically you could "clone" a unit several times by sending into chronogate to X time, then go back a few seconds and do the same thing all the way back to X time. Your army would gradually shrink, of course, but still...
Their "time waves" concept handles a lot of the paradoxes. If a tank goes back and blows up its own factory, it won't disappear in the future until the wave where it killed itself propagates far enough. The waves would appear to be an elegant solution.
pSyk0mAnNerdish by NatureGermanyJoin Date: 2003-08-07Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer
I hope they make sure "moving the island" isn't overpowered <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/nerd-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::nerdy::" border="0" alt="nerd-fix.gif" />
Sounds like a better game than it will be. I'm very doubtful that the majority of people will enjoy or even be able to handle the strategical thinking involved. I can see a minority of capable minds really enjoying it, but I think it will pass over most people's heads. The other problem is the game length, it sounds like games would be incredibly long what with all the history-fixing. Then there's the memory/CPU power required to remember everything and display feasibly 2 unit models for every unit.
Also, the fact you can speed up time (without your enemy being aware of this) in the past means you can do more damage in the past than in the present, since you can resolve a battle in faster realtime. If you keep resolving lots of battles quickly, the other player will have so much catching up to do that they will constantly be on the back foot, since while he's undoing your mess you'll be creating more.
ThansalThe New ScumJoin Date: 2002-08-22Member: 1215Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1703717:date=Mar 29 2009, 12:35 PM:name=SkulkBait)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SkulkBait @ Mar 29 2009, 12:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1703717"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It doesn't matter how fast you play through the past, I can go back to any point in there and play through it at its normal speed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> using units that were KOed in that battle but the time wave hasn't propagated that to the future yet.
Wow, mind boggling is a huge understatement, although I get the feeling that many of the concept will be a lot clearer if you just got to play the game and get a feel for it. I foresee that this game will either be a disaster or a huge success, looking forward to it in any case!
since you posted this here I've been watching following it on and off. I just went there today and they plan to open up pre-orders January 1st with early beta access available that day.
I'm so desperate for some kind of decent RTS that I'd be more than willing to pay for this without even knowing if it will be decent.
$30 is a bit steep for a game that is so utterly unknown. I know nothing about the developers, all I've seen is a shaky-cam video, very loose on details, from a GDC a few years ago.
if you're curious, this game is really confusing. Granted, it's an alpha 1.0 release and almost an entire year away from retail release but man, it's hard to fully understand the game and manipulate time in a way that you actually know what's going to happen.
At least no one can complain about the dumbing down of this game :)
What this game will hopefully have is a great set of ingame tutorials to get you going with all the concepts. They have a while to do it, so I can hope!
You may not realise this, but they actually finished the game already in the future and made all the tutorials in the past and we are just waiting for the time wave to catch up with us...
<!--quoteo(post=1745472:date=Jan 2 2010, 01:01 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Jan 2 2010, 01:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745472"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So there is a lot of puttering around wondering what the hell is going on, and then your base is dead in the future which is also the now?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Basically, yeah. There are a lot of strange AI behavior bugs (I think they're bugs?) which also make the experience more confusing but I assume they'll be fixed. I don't want to comment further because I don't want to tarnish their game until I can at least learn more about it to make actual suggestions, but without significant overhaul I think Crispy's prediction will hold true:
<!--QuoteBegin-Crispy+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Crispy)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm very doubtful that the majority of people will enjoy or even be able to handle the strategical thinking involved.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This game is indeed extremely confusing at first , as you'd think it would be. But you can get used to it.
I wouldn't call time travel mechanics "intuitive" , there are lots of possibilities with good planning but you have to watch for unforeseen consequences ! Even the tutorial missions can catch you off guard as no one really thinks in 4 dimensions.
Do not experiment with the grandfather paradox map immediately , the timeline window is too short to give you any time to think. The chrono-cloning challenge map pushes you to learn how to use the most powerful time manipulation strategies.
Even for an alpha testing version , it shows a lot of promises. But I agree that playing full rounds will be a massive challenge. Logically multiplayer games should be hilarious as nobody will be able to grow perfect skills like in Starcraft.
I decided to throw my lot in, after doing a bit of reading. It seems like a decent implementation of an interesting idea. It's still $20, which means they haven't broken the 500 pre-order mark yet. Hm. Troubling.
Comments
I hope they keep the RTS mechanics as simple as possible so that most of the strategy is in the time-travel. It would be cool if RTS's had more of a common set of unit archetypes the way many FPS's have standard weapon archetypes so they could just stick to those.
YOU UNDRINK MY MILKSHAKE! YOU INSTEAD DRINK YOUR OWN MILKSHAKE AFTER I RETROACTIVELY MOVED MY MILKSHAKE! YOU DRINK IT UP!!
Here's a quote from one of their playtests.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Chris used a neat strategy against me in a memorable free-for-all game between him, Konrad, and myself. I launched a massive surprise attack on Chris's mining base, so he traveled back in time, prepared a large fleet to counter my attack and succeeded. However, in the present I acquired nukes and sent a nuke back to the end of the battle that destroyed his remaining fleet. Before it was over, he jumped back further in time, moved his mining base and undid his counter attack. Since his fleet had left the area and my army had conquered it, my nuclear blast from the future decimated my own forces! Right at that time, Konrad came at me with his forces, so I didn't have time to undo my nuclear blast.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this hurts my brain, and yet it's so epically amzaing.
The question is, how do you resolve paradoxes properly? For example, if you have units sent back into time, they fight alongside themselves, but their past versions die and the other live, the others should vanish as well but that means they didn't win the battle...... gah!!!!!
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Q. Dude, paradoxes?! You know, grandfather paradox, units fighting side by side?
A. Paradoxes can exist, but since the window of time is limited (e.g., an 8 minute window) all events eventually fall off. A paradox will oscillate between its different states until one of the states reaches the edge of the time window, leaving the players locked into one of the two states. Example: in the case of the grandfather paradox (where you use a factory to build a tank, have the tank time travel to before it was built, and then use it to destroy the factory) you will play with the paradox until it 'falls off' the time window, at which point there is a 50/50 chance of either the tank lives and the factory is destroyed, or the factory remains and the tank was never created. All paradoxes are nicely resolved with time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm cautiously optimistic.
<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
Looks like a very cool concept.
Also, the fact you can speed up time (without your enemy being aware of this) in the past means you can do more damage in the past than in the present, since you can resolve a battle in faster realtime. If you keep resolving lots of battles quickly, the other player will have so much catching up to do that they will constantly be on the back foot, since while he's undoing your mess you'll be creating more.
using units that were KOed in that battle but the time wave hasn't propagated that to the future yet.
since you posted this here I've been watching following it on and off. I just went there today and they plan to open up pre-orders January 1st with early beta access available that day.
I'm so desperate for some kind of decent RTS that I'd be more than willing to pay for this without even knowing if it will be decent.
Count me out, for now.
--Scythe--
What this game will hopefully have is a great set of ingame tutorials to get you going with all the concepts. They have a while to do it, so I can hope!
Basically, yeah. There are a lot of strange AI behavior bugs (I think they're bugs?) which also make the experience more confusing but I assume they'll be fixed. I don't want to comment further because I don't want to tarnish their game until I can at least learn more about it to make actual suggestions, but without significant overhaul I think Crispy's prediction will hold true:
<!--QuoteBegin-Crispy+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Crispy)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm very doubtful that the majority of people will enjoy or even be able to handle the strategical thinking involved.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wouldn't call time travel mechanics "intuitive" , there are lots of possibilities with good planning but you have to watch for unforeseen consequences ! Even the tutorial missions can catch you off guard as no one really thinks in 4 dimensions.
Do not experiment with the grandfather paradox map immediately , the timeline window is too short to give you any time to think. The chrono-cloning challenge map pushes you to learn how to use the most powerful time manipulation strategies.
Even for an alpha testing version , it shows a lot of promises. But I agree that playing full rounds will be a massive challenge. Logically multiplayer games should be hilarious as nobody will be able to grow perfect skills like in Starcraft.
It's not just time travel questions, mind
--Scythe--