Watchmen
Scythe
Join Date: 2002-01-25 Member: 46NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation, Reinforced - Silver
Join Date: 2002-01-25 Member: 46NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation, Reinforced - Silver
in Off-Topic
<div class="IPBDescription">Beware, spoilers within.</div><!--coloro:red--><span style="color:red"><!--/coloro--><!--sizeo:7--><span style="font-size:36pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->ZOMG HUGE SPOILERS GO AWAY RIGHT NOW THAT MEANS YOU<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Just got back from seeing it. My impressions follow, but first a preface:
I read Watchmen a few years back, in .jpg form. I never liked it enough to buy the book. It was interesting, even enjoyable, with more than a couple quotable quotes. It made me think about some of the assumptions we make as a species, and raised a lot of questions. It was thought-provoking but not amazingly incredible.
That said...
The major target audiences for this movie can be broken down into two main groups. Those that have read the book, and those that've never heard of it.
To the fanboy the movie would come across as vaguely unsatisfying, a fumble-fingered homage to the original that ultimately misses the mark. The evils of movie conversion are altogether too evident in this adaptation; it is boiled down to only the most poignant and quotable quotes. Cheesy as hell, with protracted, over-the-top action sequences littered throughout to try to keep the movie-going populace conscious.
To the virgin it would be perceived as little more than a sub-par superhero action flick with a few terrible sex scenes and a confusing ending.
Good thing my hopes weren't particularly high.
--Scythe--
P.S. My hopes did peak pretty high when the movie opened to "Times are a'changin'", though.
Just got back from seeing it. My impressions follow, but first a preface:
I read Watchmen a few years back, in .jpg form. I never liked it enough to buy the book. It was interesting, even enjoyable, with more than a couple quotable quotes. It made me think about some of the assumptions we make as a species, and raised a lot of questions. It was thought-provoking but not amazingly incredible.
That said...
The major target audiences for this movie can be broken down into two main groups. Those that have read the book, and those that've never heard of it.
To the fanboy the movie would come across as vaguely unsatisfying, a fumble-fingered homage to the original that ultimately misses the mark. The evils of movie conversion are altogether too evident in this adaptation; it is boiled down to only the most poignant and quotable quotes. Cheesy as hell, with protracted, over-the-top action sequences littered throughout to try to keep the movie-going populace conscious.
To the virgin it would be perceived as little more than a sub-par superhero action flick with a few terrible sex scenes and a confusing ending.
Good thing my hopes weren't particularly high.
--Scythe--
P.S. My hopes did peak pretty high when the movie opened to "Times are a'changin'", though.
Comments
They really screwed Ozymandias up, but that's mostly compared to all the other characters, not just in general. He wasn't too awful, just the most changed. The movie was extremely faithful to some stuff in the book that I was worried would just get cut because nobody cares at all about it (lots of Rorschach's lines, for example, like near the end when Archie almost crashes). I appreciated the brutality, although I didn't like how Dr. Manhattan blew people to bloody chunks; I think he should just be vaporizing people.
Frankly, I only had a few big problems: the superheroes seem to almost have superpowers, jumping around and kicking people through the air and stuff, which frankly misses the entire point. The whole "The Comedian is my father" thing got shafted bad. Silk Spectre #1 was a crappy actress. The soundtrack was sometimes a little distracting (like in the crappy Archie sex scene).
Still, for a movie based off an unfilmable book, I have to say they did a pretty good job. I was expecting something between a bad adaptation and a horrible crash-and-burn piece of crap, like <i>300</i> or <i>V for Vendetta</i>, but I was actually pleasantly surprised and I'm looking forward to the extended edition to see some of the cut scenes. You have to give them credit for packing almost as much detail into the movie frames as was in the comic panels, and for sticking so close to the source material. Sure, they changed some stuff, but when they changed it, they were obvious about it and made sure it was changed. The stuff they took from the book, well, they barely touched that at all.
I saw it with a couple of people who hadn't read the book and they were like "whoa" and with a guy who did read the book and he was like "that was sweet" and with someone who had read half the book who also said "that was sweet." In my eyes, a success, especially in light of what it could have been.
Too much emo and too much talking... And the sex scenes, it was bad enough with 1 but when the 2nd popped up and the positions, I just couldn't help myself, I burst out laughing in the cinema... Then people started laughing at me because I was laughing at the sex scene.. The sex scene was too stupid to not be funny..
I did like the death scenes though, and the blood was a little exaggerated but still cool..
of all of it, my most fav scene was the prison scene, that I enjoyed.. But the rest was just too meh for me.. And who was the cool cat?
not a movie I can see twice.. When I walked out, I didn't really have much to compliment it.. Sure the graphics were great, but in today's movie making it is not impossible to now bring out such brilliant scenes.. Unfortunately due to the acting and the lack of character the graphics for this movie appeared very dull.
I would say the bloke who created watchmen has every right to refuse to see this remake of his novel, and he was right when he said it can not be made into a movie.. I am sure the comics have much more character than what this movie could ever achieve..
I loved the film. Fine, Alan Moore isn't going to support it, that's his perogative as the author (and let's be honest, he's been shafted by Hollywood enough times) but I think Zack Snyder did a great job. The only plot changes that were made were logical in terms of a film, as the 'psychic alien squid thing' gets it's own entire subplot in the graphic novel, which they simply wouldn't have time to accomodate. I do agree that they seem to 'nearly' have superpowers, but then, the original prison scene in the comic also has them fight their way through, so the fact they manage that needs to be explained 'somehow'.
Ozymandias was a little too effeminate for me, but then they ignored entirely the pretext of 'Are Ozymandias / Rorschach ######?' so at least that's done. Bubastis (the cat) felt a little shoehorned in, I wondered why he wasn't in the office scene when Dreiberg goes to visit. We went in a group of 8 (4 of whom were book fans, and 3 were girlfriends, cliche or what?) and the girls all said they enjoyed it too, as it was a bit 'more thinking' than the average superhero film.
@ Kylie : In a way, the sex scenes are supposed to be funny. It's rather picking up on the fact that they both really do get off on being superheroes, and the flamethrower moment is the punch line to this. This is also why they struggle so much the first time, as just people.
@ Scythe : You're an idiot, and don't deserve an opinion. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
EDIT: Why on Earth is the common word for homosexual in the swear filter?
I have no idea why Nixon was elected to 5 terms, but I guess that was explained in the book. I think I did hear it alluded to that Woodward and Bernstein were assassinated or something, but that's still probably not enough.
On the subject of the plot, the twists near the end were cool, but then when I started to think about it, couldn't Ozy have suggested Dr. Manhattan just *threaten* the US (or the world) to force a peace? That way, no cities would have had to have been blown up and he could have bypassed his whole nefarious plan. Dr. Manhattan is like, "to me, the most intelligent human is no more significant than the most intelligent termite," and then 2 seconds later, he proves he had no idea what Ozy's plan was and seems to agree that he now sees it made sense. Not so omniscient after all... and if he agreed in the end that himself getting painted as the bad guy is what was needed to get the US and USSR to play nice, he could have cut out all the carnage and just threatened them, maybe with some big show of power that didn't kill anyone (or nearly as many people)...
If actual angst is your idea of emo and Watchmen is your idea of too much talking you must get fed up with people talking about their feelings pretty darn quick <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" /> And like Shockwave said, the sex scenes were supposed to be pretty funny, although the one on Archie seemed over the top with the music added in, and it was mostly the first one and the one with Dr. Manhattan that were supposed to be funny.
<!--quoteo(post=1702252:date=Mar 8 2009, 05:54 AM:name=kyliegirl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(kyliegirl @ Mar 8 2009, 05:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1702252"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I would say the bloke who created watchmen has every right to refuse to see this remake of his novel, and he was right when he said it can not be made into a movie.. I am sure the comics have much more character than what this movie could ever achieve..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The comics actually have quite a bit more "emo" and "talking." Some of the fight scenes are shorter or not there, even, leading to a grand total of less violence and more everything else.
<!--quoteo(post=1702277:date=Mar 8 2009, 09:52 AM:name=DiscoZombie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DiscoZombie @ Mar 8 2009, 09:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1702277"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I have no idea why Nixon was elected to 5 terms, but I guess that was explained in the book. I think I did hear it alluded to that Woodward and Bernstein were assassinated or something, but that's still probably not enough.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's no big mystery really, the movie mentioned that he repealed the 22nd Amendment and power hungry people using a time of crisis to seize power isn't exactly mindblowing stuff. In the comic you get even less information: the Kennedy assassination and Woodward and Bernstein are only alluded to. In the movie it's clear the the Comedian kill all three (for Nixon, basically).
<!--quoteo(post=1702277:date=Mar 8 2009, 09:52 AM:name=DiscoZombie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DiscoZombie @ Mar 8 2009, 09:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1702277"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->On the subject of the plot, the twists near the end were cool, but then when I started to think about it, couldn't Ozy have suggested Dr. Manhattan just *threaten* the US (or the world) to force a peace? That way, no cities would have had to have been blown up and he could have bypassed his whole nefarious plan. Dr. Manhattan is like, "to me, the most intelligent human is no more significant than the most intelligent termite," and then 2 seconds later, he proves he had no idea what Ozy's plan was and seems to agree that he now sees it made sense. Not so omniscient after all...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Manhattan wasn't omniscient because the energy patterns from the explosions let off tachyons, which interfered with his knowledge of time. He mentioned this the first time he was shown and attributed the tachyons to a possible nuclear war, and then he mentions it a few times near the end, especially when he's making Laurie mad by saying there's probably going to be a nuclear war and when he's saying he ought to thank Adrian because he had forgotten what it was like to be uncertain of something.
<!--quoteo(post=1702277:date=Mar 8 2009, 09:52 AM:name=DiscoZombie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DiscoZombie @ Mar 8 2009, 09:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1702277"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->and if he agreed in the end that himself getting painted as the bad guy is what was needed to get the US and USSR to play nice, he could have cut out all the carnage and just threatened them, maybe with some big show of power that didn't kill anyone (or nearly as many people)...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That would only work if Adrian was sure of convicing Dr. Manhattan of the necessity of his plan. That wasn't anywhere near a given: Dr. Manhattan wasn't convinced until Adrian flipped on the TV and showed him the results. As it stands, Manhattan was incredibly unpredictable, and even trying your idea left Adrian open to the possibility not just of failure but of then being stopped by Manhattan, which is bad. Sure, the plan that he went with also had a possibility of failure, but it was less likely to fail, and when the ENTIRE WORLD and EVERYONE EVER ALIVE FOREVER depends on what you do, you're willing to kill a few cities just to have a bigger chance of success.
I can understand why they changed the gigantic alien psychic squid thing, and in the grand scheme of the movie, the disaster in the end was all that mattered, not what the disaster was so much.
Feel free to get excited <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zUgBK0-qbo" target="_blank">now</a>. It was cut because it made the film too damn long, and is included in the DVD/Blu-Ray release.
I fully endorse this sentiment.
So someone boil it down for me... is it worth me actually going out to see it?
I thought it was great by the way <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
actually the sex scene i laughed at was the one where they had sex in that bug ship.. The manhattan one was amusing also..
<!--quoteo(post=1702283:date=Mar 9 2009, 02:35 AM:name=TychoCelchuuu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TychoCelchuuu @ Mar 9 2009, 02:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1702283"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The comics actually have quite a bit more "emo" and "talking." Some of the fight scenes are shorter or not there, even, leading to a grand total of less violence and more everything else.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I guess I was hoping for more blood and guts.. and fight scenes.. But oh well.
That being said, I enjoyed it. I felt it was faithful enough, especially regarding the time limit they had. Most of the major actors were very good. I was also immensely impressed with how many of the storylines and subplots they managed to weave in without getting too complex.
I was also very disappointed with some of the fan service moments. For example, there is suddenly the lynx/tiger/creature. Wuh? Where did that come from? Or where we glimpse the newstand guy and the comic reading kid in a few scenes (like right before the explosion). Huh. Who are these people and why do we care? I can see how they still can be the random nobodies, but at the same time I'd rather they just cut that stuff out completely instead of doing a few frame homage to an entire subplot.
That being said, one of my non-Watchmen friends was very confused. Guess knowing the plot ahead of time smoothed things out for me.
Oh, and the sex scene was gratuitous and yet one of the funniest moments in the movie.
Perhaps the best way to prep is to understand that this isn't your typical Superhero flick. It's a breakdown of the characters and their stories, not really about this overarching plot of good versus evil and a hero rising to the challenge. Superheroes that are normal people and that have to deal with the moral gray every day. Well, at least some of them are. The chick was fairly bland.
Oh, and soundtrack choice was amazing.
The lynx/tiger either hangs out in Antarctica or doesn't hang out in Adrian's office, it is safe to assume. It wouldn't have made sense to have the cat around before it was around. The newstand guy and comic kid are going to be in the director's cut, I believe, so they couldn't have cut them entirely out of the movie unless they wanted to shoot two versions of the NYC streets, one with and one without the two guys, and really I can't imagine why you'd have a problem with them being two random dudes. We don't care about them at all if we haven't read the book, and if we have, it's just part of what will be in the extras.
However, since I had read the comic, I absolutely loved it. given the time limitations, I think snyder did a fantastic job. there were lots of attention to detail, little bits you would pick out if you've read the comic. He managed to change the ending so that it was more realistic but true to the comic's intention. It just is a joy to see a milestone in the comics industry put to film and it didn't turn out to be terribly bad. It could be improved, only if it was a five hour movie but everyone knows thats not possible. and i think all the actors chosen really fit what was in the comics, except ozy.
Looking forward to the extended edition + black freighter anime = close to 5hours ..
BUT, in the wake of all this i found a gem that i watched thru last night, 6 and a half hours of it. not an audiobook, but an audio comic book movie kinda thing.
Extremly well pulled off scans of the comic put into motion. Never seen anything like it.
<a href="http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1322240/" target="_blank">http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1322240/</a>
*shrug* I liked it. I'm looking to read the book/comic/whatever now too.
One detail... the comedian's room number was 300.
Oh god please no why.
--Scythe--
Point stands, that 300 was not coincidence. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
For me, the unforgivable change to the story are the removal of the giant squid sequence. The introduction of Jon as the threat to humanity that forces cooperation completely changes the point of the story. The solution to 'who watches the watchmen' was 'everybody should'. Now it is that we need some kind of superbeing to force us to follow his instructions. The removal of the black freighter storyline is also sad. In watchmen a lot is left open to interpretation but the one facet of the story that grounds it in some kind of moral statement is the allegorical show of hands that is the tale of the black freighter. In the sub-plot the protagonist survives on the bodies of his dead comrades and uses them to achieve his clearly honest intentions but he ends up doing more harm than good and in the end destroys that which he has fought so hard to achieve.
I don't see how that follows from the removal of the squid. The point of the movie isn't that we need some sort of superbeing to force us to follow instructions, especially because Dr. Manhattan didn't actually do it.
Okay, maybe I've got it all wrong, but my understanding is that Veidt fools the world into thinking that it was Jon who caused the carnage and that Jon agrees to play along - rorscharch being the only one who refuses to compromise. There wasn't really a giant squid invasion either btw <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
<img src="http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/correlation.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<img src="http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/correlation.png" border="0" class="linked-image" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
rofl