Commander Battles

locallyunscene

<div class="IPBDescription">how two comms directly interact</div>This thread is sort of a spiritual successor to the <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=105489" target="_blank">High Level Commander</a> thread, but focusing on a specific aspect.

I propose that the two different commander's abilities should directly <b>conflict</b> with each other. Some possible examples:<ul><li> Scanner Sweep vs Cloaking Cloud</li><li> Nanite Flush(to give commander control of doors in an area) vs Parasite Infection(disrupts control on marine held/welded doors)</li><li> Area Electrification(no dmg to players) vs Infestation Bloom(increase DI growth rate)</li></ul>I'd like to hear some more suggestions, but some things to keep in mind:<ul><li> Abilities <u>should not</u> directly harm opposing players(to avoid the "killed from the sky" perception)</li><li> Abilities <u>should not</u> be an immediate "win the game/battle" button</li><li> Abilities <u>should not</u> be mirror images(ie: increased dmg in an area vs increased dmg in an area)</li><li> Abilities <u>should</u> be useful in a wide range of scenarios</li></ul>Linking past suggestions for discussion is welcomed, as long as they relate to commander abilities.

locallyunscene

I have a couple other random thoughts that I didn't want to go in the main part of this topic, but are still related.

Question: Assuming two abilities are used and are mutually exclusive, which takes priority?
Proposed Answer: Territory/DI. If a comm scans on DI and the other comm casts cloak or preemtively casts it, possibly wasting resources, the kharaa stay cloaked/recloak.

Question: Cloaking/Scanning sucks, I don't want the comm to be able to cast it regularly.
Proposed Answer: That's not a question, but I think scans and cloaks from the comm should be tied to a small low hp structure similar to a mine, so the non-comms have some recourse.

Bacillus

Hmm... I'm not sure if single cast area spells like cloaking are optimal for this. Two average comms can definitely cancel each other's actions, but a newbie vs average can be a huge pain. That's a little similar situation as SC is nowadays.

Commanders battling each other out on strategy level and supporting their teams for their own purposes might work unless someone comes up with ways to allow commanders really micro against each other.

spellman23

I'm not even sure there should be directly opposing abilities. As you've shown, there's some weird priority issues that have to be dealt with. 2 scans beats 1 cloak field + SC chamber? Or is it 2 scans beats all but 2 cloak fields? ugh.

Something for asymmetry might be the Marines get more active Commander Abilities (like scan sweep) that are in small areas, but Aliens get more passive-ish abilities that span globally, or at least DI infested regions. So, instead of cloaking cloud, perhaps a temporary radar blur-out or static so that MT goes out of sync (lags more), or everyone gets 30% base cloaking for a period of time. Then, we still get the nice comm vs. comm, but they're not directly fighting each other, and yet they're related tools to be used.

botchiball

I like what spellman23 is saying, and would go so far as to say that I think the two commanders will not be symetrical in abilities or canceling abilities. The idea of them being asymmetrical would mean that one side works completely different from another, not just having different kinds of the same abilities.

I'd suggest that the TSA commander would have more area of effect abilities or squad-selected boosts, while the Kharaa commander would have more over all infestation effect abilities and individual boosts to particular kharaa.

Some ideas (some of which I've heard or read):
All of these are temporary durations unless specified otherwise

<u>TSA Commander:</u>
-Infestation damaging AOE
-Hive Sight Interuption AOE
-AOE or Squad-Selected healing
-SS Catalyst: as in NS1
-AOE grid-placed Minefield (permanent): sets up a bunch of mines in an area
-All TSA Structure Placement


Assuming that Gorges are still the builders of Kharaa and that the Kharaa Commander is mainly a strategic commander
<u>Kharaa Commander:</u>
-Over All Infestation clouded motion tracking + silence vs TSA Comm (so comm can't hear when hovering)
-OAI regeneration (very slow)
-OAI stickyness: making marines walk slower and not jump as high
-OAI Hive-Sight: allowing all kharaa to see any marines currently in infested areas
-Individual Kharaa Steroid Boost: increasing damage of strength based attacks, movement speed, etc.
-IK resource dump: which allows the Kharaa Commander to give resources to a Kharaa of choice
-OAI infestation rapid growth: where all infestation grows out rapidly
-IK Recall: Allows the KC to pull any Kharaa to a specific place (i.e. teleportation)

<u>Kharaa Commander Structures:</u>
-Kharaa-Only Walls: allows the Kharaa Commander to place walls which only Kharaa can pass - marines must destroy them to pass
-Teleportation Tunnels: like Starcraft's nydus canals
-Infestation Traps: Place-able only in infested areas, creates traps which are hard for marines to see, and will attack 1 marine at a time. Easy to destroy if there are multiple marines there, but can effectively kill a single marine. Similar the way Onos digestion worked in NS1 except much easier to prevent with another marine present. Isn't destroyed after use, will work over and over. (Effectively this is the opposite of a mine.. but then I said opposites wouldn't be good. This is still a cool idea I think).
-OAI Infestation Bone Structure.. or maybe called Resin Excretion: Would allow all kharaa to climb infected walls or cielings - i.e. allows Gorges to spray infestation on walls and then climb up them, or lets Fades and Onos travel in new paths without Blinking.

____________________________________

And thats all I got, suggestions, changes?

PhiXX

<!--quoteo(post=1699983:date=Feb 11 2009, 02:48 AM:name=botchiball)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(botchiball @ Feb 11 2009, 02:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1699983"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->-Infestation Traps: Place-able only in infested areas, creates traps which are hard for marines to see, and will attack 1 marine at a time. Easy to destroy if there are multiple marines there, but can effectively kill a single marine. Similar the way Onos digestion worked in NS1 except much easier to prevent with another marine present. Isn't destroyed after use, will work over and over. (<u>Effectively this is the opposite of a mine.. but then I said opposites wouldn't be good. This is still a cool idea I think</u>).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like your ideas and don't think the trap would be a direct opposite of a mine, 'cause it can be used again and maybe will also take the marine out of combat for a few (worthful) seconds.
On the opposite a mine will kill a skulk instantly, and his teammates will not really be able to help him not to step on the mine (except spitting/running on it).

1mannARMEE

It shouldn't kill the marine just stun him for a given time and disable his weapons so if he isn't freed by a teammate he might die from an approaching alien, it would be way too overpowered if he is stunned for infinity and if he will be killed by the trap. It would also piss the marine players off if you get stunned for infinity or if you just die. So you have to be very carefully with those kind of things.

I would also keep in mind, that you should make the alien commander be dependant on his aliens and the marines be dependant on their commander, to keep the differences between the two commanders as big as possible.

I would also suggest that the alien commander should be the more aggressive one ability wise and the marine commander is the supporter and the marines rely very much on this support.

For the alien commander, I would use some kind of energy bar like every alien lifeform has in NS1 but for some global abilities, its not refreshing that fast and some abilities are dependant on how many hives you have and so on, but you should be able to use all your abilities at the price of some energy of your energy bar and maybe some ressources and this way you can limit ability spam and abuse and on the other hand the commander has to think clearly of what he is doing, this energy bar for ALL abilities is for the alien commander.

I would use a similar system for the support like medpacks and ammo just add a given pool of those things, but in return the medpacks can be free so it prevents noob commanders from wasting ressources and makes it much more interesting and challenging for expirienced commanders to "dose" the medpacks correctly. I would also recommend some upgrades for healthpacks so that they can scale with the enemy lifeforms, but this comes at the price of ressources and time and maybe if you research on this upgrade you can't research a different upgrade so you have basically another strategy you can go for ( I suggested these things somewhere else before, please don't rip this last idea apart for being "anti med spamm" I just want to make it more challenging).

The Alien Energy Bar and the Marine Support Pool should be able to be optimized or controlled by upgrades in any way.

A nice idea would be to increase the regeneration of your Pool / Energy bar, but in return your maximum is lowered.

The Energy refreshment or Maximun and Pool refresh and Maximum should be dependant on how many players are in the game at the moment, but shouldn't be over a certain number to prevent "spamming" (okay sorry I said the word <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> ).

Just tossing this ideas in so you can play around with them, I hope it helps, if it doesn't ignore me <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />

Greetings

PhiXX

<!--quoteo(post=1700078:date=Feb 12 2009, 01:00 AM:name=1mannARMEE)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(1mannARMEE @ Feb 12 2009, 01:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1700078"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It shouldn't kill the marine just stun him for a given time and disable his weapons so if he isn't freed by a teammate he might die from an approaching alien, it would be way too overpowered if he is stunned for infinity and if he will be killed by the trap.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How about the marine will scream for help, alerting his/her teammates but also nearby kharaa <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/asrifle.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::asrifle::" border="0" alt="asrifle.gif" />

botchiball

How about for a Kharaa trap of sorts, have something similar to half-life's barnacle. Where it partially disables the player, but doesn't stop him from freeing himself. Should he be killed by it though - it takes a while for the thing to "eat" the marines body before it can attack another. Sound good?

Harimau

Not really...

I'm not a huge fan of spells or traps. What is this, yu-gi-oh?

spellman23

Traps in the kind of say mines I would say are OK. Giant barnacle popping out of wall or DI, not quite as much.

And yes, stay very far away from mystical spells. =]