Need a new CPU.

AbraAbra Would you kindly Join Date: 2003-08-17 Member: 19870Members
edited December 2008 in Off-Topic
<div class="IPBDescription">Dual or quad? What kind?</div>The title combine with the title description should make my following questions obvious:

I wan't a new CPU, I'm stuck on an aging single core one. Which one should I get? Which one has the best price/performance ratio?
Should I pick a dual core one or go quad?

I have a LGA755 socket on my motherboard, I think. Just saying.

I was looking at this one: <a href="http://processorfinder.intel.com/details.aspx?sSpec=SLAPL" target="_blank">Core 2 Duo E8400 6 MB</a>

Oh and I looked at a Core 2 Quad Q6600 8 MB if I should choose to go for quad.
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Comments

  • semipsychoticsemipsychotic Join Date: 2003-07-09 Member: 18061Members
    Collective wisdom suggests that you should only go quad if you're sure that the software you're running will make use of it. So, if this is a general household PC or gaming PC, stick with the dual.

    (Citation: <a href="http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/000942.html)" target="_blank">http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/000942.html)</a>

    That's pretty much the extent of my knowledge.
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  • ScytheScythe Join Date: 2002-01-25 Member: 46NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation, Reinforced - Silver
    Nehalem promises to be the Next Big Thing. Your choices are really a C2D, I recently bought the E8600, or an i7 (Nehalem). The C2D quad cores won't give you the bang/buck, especially for gaming. The dual core C2D is an excellent chip that'll serve you well for gaming in the next two years, but the i7 is being raved about as a game-changer.

    AMD's new multi-core is an unknown quantity.

    --Scythe--
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  • remiremi remedy [blu.knight] Join Date: 2003-11-18 Member: 23112Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester
    Dual Core is better for gaming. Games can't effectively make use of all the cores.

    For lots of rendering/encoding quad core has a better performance.


    I had the same question to answer when I got my CPU.
    I went for the Dual core because I knew that I would be playing games and using things that can't take advantage of the extra 2 cores, so a slightly higher clock speed is more beneficial.
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  • JediYoshiJediYoshi The Cupcake Boss Join Date: 2002-05-27 Member: 674Members
    Yeah that's the case now, but the trend for new games naturally is leaning towards supporting multiple core processors.

    Also, bummer you didn't make this thread last week. Tigerdirect had the core i7 920 on sale for $150.
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  • remiremi remedy [blu.knight] Join Date: 2003-11-18 Member: 23112Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester
    <!--quoteo(post=1695070:date=Dec 4 2008, 02:30 AM:name=JediYoshi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(JediYoshi @ Dec 4 2008, 02:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1695070"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah that's the case now, but the trend for new games naturally is leaning towards supporting multiple core processors.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    By the nature of game programming, it is very difficult to make good use of multiple cores. We just haven't figured out how to effectively split up game logic into multiple threads yet. It's not just about using threads. If lots of threads are being used but they need to wait to synch up you lose a lot of the benefit you would otherwise get.

    Even HL2, which I believe spawns a whole ton of threads, does better on a Dual Core than a Quad Core...


    Note: I am a game programmer (college), and I learned about this stuff last year but I am having a difficult time remembering and explaining *why* it's so hard to make good use of multiple threads... I just know it is, and that it is a mostly unsolved problem.
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  • RobRob Unknown Enemy Join Date: 2002-01-24 Member: 25Members, NS1 Playtester
    <!--quoteo(post=1695079:date=Dec 4 2008, 06:43 AM:name=Psyke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Psyke @ Dec 4 2008, 06:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1695079"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->By the nature of game programming, it is very difficult to make good use of multiple cores. We just haven't figured out how to effectively split up game logic into multiple threads yet. It's not just about using threads. If lots of threads are being used but they need to wait to synch up you lose a lot of the benefit you would otherwise get.

    Even HL2, which I believe spawns a whole ton of threads, does better on a Dual Core than a Quad Core...
    Note: I am a game programmer (college), and I learned about this stuff last year but I am having a difficult time remembering and explaining *why* it's so hard to make good use of multiple threads... I just know it is, and that it is a mostly unsolved problem.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    It's not just game programming, it's any problem where each its sub-problems depend on the sub-problem that came before it. So, you can't get to C from A without going through B. You'll see the word "pipeline" a lot in games especially, graphics pipeline, logic pipeline, etc. First you draw the vectored polygons, then you rasterize them, then you clip/cull, ... The input to each is the output from the last. That's not to say a completely new way of doing it that doesn't rely on pipelines wouldn't fix the "problem."

    As far as the CPU and buying one for the future... The revolutionary wave of new programming paradigms that use concurrency has been a long time coming, but it's always been "just around the corner." I wouldn't recommend buying one over another in anticipation of this new style; I'd buy what makes sense for what I'm doing now.
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  • frostymoosefrostymoose Join Date: 2003-09-12 Member: 20799Members
    edited December 2008
    Keep in mind you'll need a new motherboard to go with a corei7 (it uses a new socket). You might even need a new motherboard for a core2 duo if your mb is super old... or maybe a BIOS update can fix it if its uncompatible.

    I'd take the 3 ghz core2duo over the core2quad any day of the week.
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  • AbraAbra Would you kindly Join Date: 2003-08-17 Member: 19870Members
    I have the LGA755 socket. I don't plan on getting a new motherboard for i7.

    So a 3 GHz core2duo it is.

    Now to look at prices...
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  • AbraAbra Would you kindly Join Date: 2003-08-17 Member: 19870Members
    edited December 2008
    Core 2 Duo E8400 6 MB, yes?

    ninjaedit: sorry doublepost

    Anotheredit: There is like a 135.53$US difference between the E8400 and the E8600. The difference I see is the E8600 is .33 Ghz "better".
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  • ScytheScythe Join Date: 2002-01-25 Member: 46NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation, Reinforced - Silver
    E8600 is the 3.33GHz.

    --Scythe--
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  • remiremi remedy [blu.knight] Join Date: 2003-11-18 Member: 23112Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester
    <!--quoteo(post=1695085:date=Dec 4 2008, 08:55 AM:name=Rob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Rob @ Dec 4 2008, 08:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1695085"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's not just game programming, it's any problem where each its sub-problems depend on the sub-problem that came before it. So, you can't get to C from A without going through B. You'll see the word "pipeline" a lot in games especially, graphics pipeline, logic pipeline, etc. First you draw the vectored polygons, then you rasterize them, then you clip/cull, ... The input to each is the output from the last. That's not to say a completely new way of doing it that doesn't rely on pipelines wouldn't fix the "problem."

    As far as the CPU and buying one for the future... The revolutionary wave of new programming paradigms that use concurrency has been a long time coming, but it's always been "just around the corner." I wouldn't recommend buying one over another in anticipation of this new style; I'd buy what makes sense for what I'm doing now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Very well said.

    I realize it's not just a problem with games, but that's what JediYoshi was referring to (saying that its a problem that will be solved soon), and what I was disagreeing with (because of the reasons you mentioned).

    I definitely agree with your last point as well. Life of a processor is about 2 years, give or take. Even if a whole new way of programming games is figured out, it's not going to happen before you are in the market for a new CPU.
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  • lolfighterlolfighter Snark, Dire Join Date: 2003-04-20 Member: 15693Members
    My first generation P4 lasted four years.
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  • RobRob Unknown Enemy Join Date: 2002-01-24 Member: 25Members, NS1 Playtester
    <!--quoteo(post=1695126:date=Dec 4 2008, 03:38 PM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(lolfighter @ Dec 4 2008, 03:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1695126"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My first generation P4 lasted four years.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    That's not really fair, though. That generation of CPU was riding the high of the times, just before we ran into a brick wall on clock speed vs heat. The whole market slowed down at that time, and things like chemical processors were to be the new savior of the industry. I'm still hopeful about nanotech for CPUs, but it's a lot further off than multicore programming, I think.
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  • remiremi remedy [blu.knight] Join Date: 2003-11-18 Member: 23112Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester
    On the subject: <a href="http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/nov08/6912" target="_blank">http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/nov08/6912</a>
    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It seems the current design of multi-core processors is not good for the design of supercomputers. According to IEEE: 'Engineers at Sandia National Laboratories, in New Mexico, have simulated future high-performance computers containing the 8-core, 16-core, and 32-core microprocessors that chip makers say are the future of the industry. The results are distressing. Because of limited memory bandwidth and memory-management schemes that are poorly suited to supercomputers, the performance of these machines would level off or even decline with more cores.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
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  • ScytheScythe Join Date: 2002-01-25 Member: 46NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation, Reinforced - Silver
    <!--quoteo(post=1695205:date=Dec 5 2008, 10:00 PM:name=Psyke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Psyke @ Dec 5 2008, 10:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1695205"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->On the subject: <a href="http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/nov08/6912" target="_blank">http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/nov08/6912</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Means nothing. All they're saying is that there's a bottleneck between the CPU(s) and the memory. This'll likely become redundant with some clever tech, either adding more buses or further increasing the FSB clock speed.

    --Scythe--
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  • RobRob Unknown Enemy Join Date: 2002-01-24 Member: 25Members, NS1 Playtester
    There's already a bottleneck between CPU and Memory, as the bus between them as hasn't been the same speed as the CPU since we moved into gigahertz, and the recall speed of the main memory itself is sluggish compared to the CPU. This is the reason for L1 and L2 cache in your CPU. L1/L2 transistors are much faster than main memory, and also a lot closer, as they share the same chip with the processor, but they're expensive. So, as always with engineering, you have a trade off. Bottleneck length vs cost/heat.
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  • Private_ColemanPrivate_Coleman PhD in Video Games Join Date: 2002-11-07 Member: 7510Members
    edited December 2008
    Most developers are scared of multiple threads since the coding practices for making use of them are largely esoteric, or they perceive it as too hard to bother with. Don't expect anything to make use of a quad core machine anytime soon; by the time developers finally get a grasp of how to make use of multiple threads we might have 16 or 32 cores. A quad core is a waste of cash.
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  • JediYoshiJediYoshi The Cupcake Boss Join Date: 2002-05-27 Member: 674Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1695257:date=Dec 5 2008, 02:03 PM:name=Private_Coleman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Private_Coleman @ Dec 5 2008, 02:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1695257"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Most developers are scared of multiple threads since the coding practices for making use of them are largely esoteric, or they perceive it as too hard to bother with. Don't expect anything to make use of a quad core machine anytime soon; by the time developers finally get a grasp of how to make use of multiple threads we might have 16 or 32 cores. A quad core is a waste of cash.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    As far as value gaming is concerned yeah it's <a href="http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/2008/11/11/intel-core-i7-cpu-value/2" target="_blank">overkill</a>, but you'll still be hard pressed to find <a href="http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/2008/11/06/overclocking-intel-core-i7-920/6" target="_blank">benchmarks</a> not showing the natural increase in performance they give.
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  • enf0rcerenf0rcer intrigued... Join Date: 2003-03-16 Member: 14584Members
    there is so much nerd floating around in here it scares me. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/nerd-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::nerdy::" border="0" alt="nerd-fix.gif" />

    As for me, the less technologically inclined, my purchase decision was quad core- I figured even if I didn't get a performance boost in games I could in other apps I'd be using like Photoshop. I don't regret my purchase, the thing is steady as a rock and it's never been the limiting factor. Runs at nice low temps too <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> not like ye olde P4 3.2 HT!

    as a consumer I just don't invest myself in the large ramifications of technologies. All these arguments, which mean nothing to me, don't dissuade me from knowing that what I have works well. meh.
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  • lolfighterlolfighter Snark, Dire Join Date: 2003-04-20 Member: 15693Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1695673:date=Dec 9 2008, 02:51 PM:name=enf0rcer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(enf0rcer @ Dec 9 2008, 02:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1695673"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->there is so much nerd floating around in here it scares me. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/nerd-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::nerdy::" border="0" alt="nerd-fix.gif" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    You ain't seen nothin' yet boyo.
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  • AbraAbra Would you kindly Join Date: 2003-08-17 Member: 19870Members
    Alright I bought a core 2 duo E8400, only to realize my motherboard doesn't support it. Yay.
    ###### happens, creditcard man awaaaay!

    New motherboard! Suggestions? (oh please just tell me: BUY THIS:) nothing over 1200Danish Kroners please. 190 usd max.

    ###### BEANS
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  • spellman23spellman23 NS1 Theorycraft Expert Join Date: 2007-05-17 Member: 60920Members
    um, wow. Is that a port issue or BIOS issue? I'm guessing port. For future reference, check those things. =]

    Basically pick a good mobo from a well-known company (ASUS, MSI, etc.) and make sure it has the stuff you want (correct PCI slots, form factor, FSB, RAM slots, etc.)

    I recommend a newegg.com search, even if it's just to see customer comments.
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  • AbraAbra Would you kindly Join Date: 2003-08-17 Member: 19870Members
    I didn't really expect it not to work. It was the right socket, but it just didn't support it. I don't know the actual technical reasons.
    Good suggestion! Newsegg. I might not be able to purchase from there, but the rating of the cards and comments could prove useful in choosing one.
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  • frostymoosefrostymoose Join Date: 2003-09-12 Member: 20799Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1695756:date=Dec 10 2008, 02:01 AM:name=Abra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Abra @ Dec 10 2008, 02:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1695756"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I didn't really expect it not to work. It was the right socket, but it just didn't support it. I don't know the actual technical reasons.
    Good suggestion! Newsegg. I might not be able to purchase from there, but the rating of the cards and comments could prove useful in choosing one.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    BIOS update could fix it... assuming the BIOS update exists

    My mobo recently died this week, and I bought a Gigabyte ep45-ud3p (~130 USD). You could probably find something a little cheaper, though. Gigabyte seems to be the highest rated on newegg for mobos under $200
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  • AbraAbra Would you kindly Join Date: 2003-08-17 Member: 19870Members
    Good ending: I found a motherboard, and installed it without any trouble at all, put the CPU in and everything now runs smooth as a soap-covered slap of gel pudding on a washed hobo's mouth.
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  • DjROniXDjROniX Join Date: 2008-12-21 Member: 65825Members
    Intel i7 processor is the best in the market. 70 % faster then dual + cad.

    So go and buy cor7, it has socket 1366. SO find a modecard which support this. XFX is cheap and damn good modecard.
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  • schkorpioschkorpio I can mspaint Join Date: 2003-05-23 Member: 16635Members
    edited December 2008
    a lot of new games will start to actually utilise quad - or even octa (8) core which isnt far off.

    gta 4 barely runs on a dual core, but sings on a quad - and id imagine it only gets better with more cores from there.

    also windows 7 will have the ability to run graphics from the cpu - so 2 - 5 years down the track when we are all running 86 core cpu's we might not need video cards <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> edit - especially once ray tracing takes off.
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  • frostymoosefrostymoose Join Date: 2003-09-12 Member: 20799Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1696755:date=Dec 26 2008, 05:10 AM:name=schkorpio)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(schkorpio @ Dec 26 2008, 05:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1696755"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->once ray tracing takes off.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    You know, something tells me it will be a while.
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  • RobRob Unknown Enemy Join Date: 2002-01-24 Member: 25Members, NS1 Playtester
    <!--quoteo(post=1696865:date=Dec 29 2008, 02:38 AM:name=frostymoose)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(frostymoose @ Dec 29 2008, 02:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1696865"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You know, something tells me it will be a while.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I'm not sure what's meant by ray tracing taking off. Can someone elaborate? As I understand it, ray tracing is an established method, it's just that the math is expensive on cpu time. By taking off, do you mean, finding a better math?
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  • TychoCelchuuuTychoCelchuuu Anememone Join Date: 2002-03-23 Member: 345Members
    Real time raytracing just isn't really feasible for games. It's far too expensive.
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