Map damage as resulst of firefight

Nasdero

SO i thinkthat one of the most unrealistic things is that whatever caliber i use i will never do any damage to the map or probs (in ns1 i could fire my gl empty and nothing happens).

I know that its is to difficult to let walls crack, espacialy for map design even with a new engine but in would be a nice feature in gunfire, biting explosions and so on would affect a little bit to the envoriment so i have some suggestions:

A GL granade would really disrupt the dynamit infestation in a certain amount of meters (of course it grows there again after some time)

gunfire and so on does damage light not all but some very helpfull so marine maybe watch thier fire or say "damn" during a firefight cuz now they are standig in the dark after hitting the lights, and alien could bite them to get an advantage , maybe couple this with a nightvision for skulks and brighter flashlight for the rines, but no NV for the rines!!


as we know or hope some probs like tables and stuff will be brakeable (at least it would be very nice if they are)
but what about a damage model for the rine and alien buildings?? so is it reals that a TF just smokes up and disapears <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" />

what if the rine (and alien) buildings would break ?? in different parts ok alien stuff may die, withered or burst^^


and as same as DI could destroy elevators and computers what if pure gunpower of course also wrecks some servers and control panels ?? so that marines could disable door as same as alien trough DI



what do you think about this ?

ryknow69

lights are going to be shootable to break them, that's a start, but making EVERYTHING dynamic is too much work for the dev team as of now and probably costly too. Having selective things being breakable, like a gas piping or an electrical box, that'd be easy.

Yes, I think they're redoing death animations in all for the marines and aliens, structures included, so that you don't get a running marine in water, or a skulk that xenocides and is still in one piece.

Nasdero

well of course i dont want nearly everything to be breakable this would eat to much resources out of you machine BUT
some elements of athmospheric would be nice what if:

You are on a spacestation the light is flickering blood is on the floor a skulk appears you give him some bullets but you have hitted the window front wich is breaking the magnet doors are getting sealed and you are sucked out into space and die ^^

ozbirdboy

<!--quoteo(post=1693590:date=Nov 17 2008, 07:27 AM:name=Nasdero)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Nasdero @ Nov 17 2008, 07:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1693590"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You are on a spacestation the light is flickering blood is on the floor a skulk appears you give him some bullets but you have hitted the window front wich is breaking the magnet doors are getting sealed and you are sucked out into space and die ^^<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

This is already possible in NS / Source games, it just depends on the level designer how functional they want to make their maps.

M00_cow

Yeah, i think this is a fantastic idea because it would add such a large amount to any map that chose to employ it, although, things i see wrong with this:
1. If i blow a hole in the side of a space ship, can the space ship magically repair itself so i can use that part of the ship again?
2. Does everyone get sucked into space if i decide to open up the side of the space ship I'm running through?
3. This would probably eat ppl's computers for lunch.

Nasdero

<!--quoteo(post=1693625:date=Nov 17 2008, 01:02 PM:name=M00_cow)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(M00_cow @ Nov 17 2008, 01:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1693625"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah, i think this is a fantastic idea because it would add such a large amount to any map that chose to employ it, although, things i see wrong with this:
1. If i blow a hole in the side of a space ship, can the space ship magically repair itself so i can use that part of the ship again?
2. Does everyone get sucked into space if i decide to open up the side of the space ship I'm running through?
3. This would probably eat ppl's computers for lunch.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


1. no once destroyed thes hallway (or what ever) isnt avvailble for the hole map time (round) i suggest

2. no if the doors are megnetically sealed you cant open themand you cant weld them open

3 i dont think so

well of course this area could only be used till the glass is broken so it should be a small hallway that is not THAT necesarry for the map balance and gameplay but this is nice cuz it adds some more strategic to the gameplay what if this hallway is still intact ?? could marine maybe rush there ? and how do aliens encounter ?? do they atteck there focosing on staying at the windows to hope to get some rine break the glass ??

Hawkeye

Kalopsia is right. All that you'd want to be done on a map probably could be done to an extent. How impressive or computer-intensive this might be all depends on how much energy and time the mapper put into it.

What you're asking for is realism, pretty much. It isn't that the programmers of natural selection were having a meeting one day saying:

Programmer 1: "You know what would be a nice change? Realism."
Programmer 2: "Hmm.. I don't know.. seems to <i>real</i> as it is already."
Programmer 1: "You've got a point. Lets all go back to working on unrealistic ideas and making the graphics engine suck just a little bit more compared to modern engines."

Of course they don't. I'm sure if they could have bullet holes and dynamic creep with tenacles and realistic flame-throwers with fire which would make George Lucas proud, they'd do it. The fact that they don't is either in consideration to making sure at least half of the player base can play it afterwards due to not being too computer intensive or because it simply can't be done with the engine they use.

I have all the confidence in the world that the unknown world team will do their best to make natural selection 2 a kick-ass game. Though it might surprise you to know that these things take time to make. I'm sure they're more focused on making a playable game first and foremost anyway.

Nasdero

well of course i know all those things you tell me, but what i am really asking for is inovation ideas you first have to have not pure ram and cpu killing mass of physiks and stuff.

so with the simplest methods you can create something really inovating (for examp the Wii and no dont compare this to NS its just an examp)

so what could make the game standing tall ? DI is great, the game its selv with the RTS FPS mix is great there are already a lot of innovative things but what of you point this on map design ? what could be done to revolutionary the map design ?

so this idea from me with the hallway that could be looked is just the peak of the icemountain

id like to hear other innovations concerning map design and ingame models think about it what could be donme withoput to much programming and system resources. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" />?

Hawkeye

Don't know, Nasdero. If it were so easy to do, you wouldn't have multi-million dollar software companies spitting out top of the line games after 2+ years in production. Only reason why it is nice graphically is because they really do have the resources to pull it off.

I don't think unknown worlds has that much resources, but then again, I don't know. They've surprised me coming out with a 1.0, 2.0, and a 3.0 fueled if only by the donations made by constellation members. Who knows?

Nasdero

i am talking about suggestions and ideas of general map design, they have thier own engine so it should be possible to do something different without useing millions of dollars i just wanted you guys just 10 minutes of you time thinking about what could be made different that maybe has never been bevore or has been was good but has forgotten, things like zero g in other threads are part of what i mean things like that

ryknow69

Hm, maybe not permanently locking the corridor off, but rather, you shot a window, everyone gets pulled to it for let’s say, 5 seconds, if you reach the window in the 5 seconds before the WINDOW's airlock seal activates, you die. After the window is sealed, you got a slightly darker hallway, and you might have killed an onos.

That's one simple idea that keeps being passed around, I see it as an easy 'Put death zone here, put a minor pull script there, and make the glass have health'.

Other map dynamics could be gas piping, electrical circuits that power certain things, and, don't forget, the weld points that'll be thrown in, and you got a damn good, all natur'al, dynamic map, that can change in many ways. Some dynamic parts CAN seal off an unnecessary area, but a good area, like a short cut to a hive, again, making the game more dynamic and not a replay.

Most of these ideas can be simple to code and make, more expensive ones to make, like ones requiring major animations, can be put in, but in very few, and in a very, VERY broad form, to allow reuse without saying "I saw that same thing on another map." To do that, maybe allow the mapper, when putting in that dynamic spot, stick animations together, to make a one big animation, different from any other mapper.

Hope my little cents did some clearing and showed some good possibilities.

Grizzlywolf

map damage is a kinda neat idea...
but its nothing new...
as for "getting sucked into space", play co_airlock on reg ns.

as far as I have seen (and i doubt this will change) there are a large number of reasons why EVERY part of the map cant be dynamically damageable...
but a LOT of them have to do with lighting, which might be alleviated by the new lighting system. (maybe...)

the rest have to do with vis leafs, which I'm not sure if it will work this way on ns2, but all parts of the maps are divided into "leafs" or sections that can actually be seen at any one time.

for example, a hallway, which has a door on both ends.
the hallway, AND the rooms (at least as far as you could possibly see into them without leaving the hallway)
are all rendered at the same time.
this avoids pop up, but can lead to bad lag if even ONE of the connected rooms is a giant open square with lots of moving ents...(this is why in some bad maps, you will lag even if you aren't in the bad area, such as some stupid clipping fog near the hive...)

the one thing i WOULD like to see though, is IF...
say, just if...
the lighting, and other render issues COULD be averted,
the walls could be auto rebuilt, Like, the tiles off wall just start popping out from the wall, and start flipping into place. with the wall gibs becoming little balls of metal and rolling back to the wall to be absorbed...
THAT would be epic.
quick gl, jump through hole, it rebuilds... win. (maybe bile bomb would be able to achieve same effect...)

otherwise, you just need to be able to make a "breakable" brush, and some neat triggers for damage, push, etc.

ozbirdboy

Also when developing a map sometimes the designer is limited to the amount of detail (entities) they can use in a particular area, the more detail they put into an area the slower the performance may be. So really it's a trade off between really nice architecture or having more realism within a level with the use of entities.

I think some idea's to be included to enhance realism would be the use of fire, flooding, random pipes bursting, random power outages, parts of the map becoming inaccessible for a period of time due to flooding/fire/etc.