Skill
Radix
Join Date: 2005-01-10 Member: 34654Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2005-01-10 Member: 34654Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">A redirection from the bhop thread</div><!--quoteo(post=1692474:date=Nov 4 2008, 11:31 PM:name=nsmac)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(nsmac @ Nov 4 2008, 11:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1692474"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No one player should not be able to decide the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b>Why not?</b>
<b>Why not?</b>
Comments
the rts genre is based upon an entire force working for the same directive. to make it so one person can win an entire game is to completely make any rts aspects of the game extraneous.
the rts genre is based upon an entire force working for the same directive. to make it so one person can win an entire game is to completely make any rts aspects of the game extraneous.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But teamwork still exists. If the other team works together better, they can defeat the single player by dominating the map etc...
The biggest problem is making an enjoyable experience in both Pub and Clan matches because they are so very different. While a capturing 2 hives and turret farming strategy might work in Pub there's no chance it will work against a clan or in a pug. This is why discussing this stuff is also difficult, some people view it from the clan point of view and others from the pub view as alot of the players left in this community have never experienced competitive clan play.
In Pub I know how frustrating it can be having an insane K:D ratio, a higher score then the commander, 4 RT and 3 fade kills but because of the rest of your team you still end up losing.
However imo that's how it's meant to be because it's Pub. Pub is for players to learn the game at the noob level. We need to remember this is a game and not everyone plays it to become a pro, some just like to play for fun. This is what pub provides, a medium for the masses to run around and do what they please.
Then there's pugs. In pugs you generally have a much more like minded group of players, most of them are there to improve their skills and game knowledge or to show off their skills to get into a clan.
And finally Clan Play. Of course it depends on the skill level of the clan but if you are very good you will end up in a top clan.
Basically skill works like this:
High skill + Low challenge = Boredom
Low skill + High Challenge = Anxiety/Excitement
Anxiety/Excitement = Need more skill
Boredom = Need more of a challenge
Some players will increase their skill and get bored of pub and eventually move on to pugs. Some players will never get bored of pub because it still brings them excitement and their skill level will stay the same. It all depends on the players preference. Personally, I want a game that challenges you as a player but also challenges your team as a whole.
Seconded <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/nerd-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::nerdy::" border="0" alt="nerd-fix.gif" />
Who votes for creating a forum where people suggest every amx mod plugin and other totally off-the-wall ideas that have nothing to do with the actual core of the game-- No wait... <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
At least I find the core gameplay discussion interesting in general and bhop even further than that. I'd say bhop is one of the biggest dilemmas of the NS gameplay and its probably a fine example of the general direction and division of the online gaming. I'm really looking forward to see what decisions UWE have made for NS2.
--
As for the skill:
I can't see any specific need for a player to be able to fight the whole enemy team alone, but I still think the individual effort is an essential part of the game. It's not fair that a newbie kills you unless he outplays you somehow. It might be anything from an ambush to swarming you with skulks, or just walking in at the right time and getting a lucky bite/shot at you. Anything goes, but there still needs to be the fact that you could've played the game different and possibly even survived, thus creating a skill curve similar to NS.
Pro-skill: Keep it as it is.
the rts genre is based upon an entire force working for the same directive. to make it so one person can win an entire game is to completely make any rts aspects of the game extraneous.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The RTS elements only become extraneous when the opposition is so phenomenally mismatched as to allow a case where one player can utilize the rules of the game to his advantage to a degree that makes his team successful despite the (poor) attempts of the opposing team.
Generally, and in the vast majority of cases, allowing any degree of skill to modify the gamestate acts in terms of markets, whereby almost without fail, the case of one player dominating the other team is prohibitive due to a numbers game. That is counteracted by teamwork, which becomes a multiplier for gameplay, not a frustrating requisite.
Why else?
Sad to think that some people within the community think less of his efforts to stir discussion... who supports his arguments, and has probably spent way more time playing, analyzing, and teaching the game, than mostly everyone who disagrees with him.
No wonder NSC died long long ago.
Ever wonder why the competitive community(which I should add is a huge relative indicator on how successful the pub community is) etched itself in stone? All the good, great players, LEFT. They got tired of the people, tired of the changes, and decided to use their skill/time/efforts on other games. That didn't have communities who actually listened to poor nub pubbers who cried when a skulk killed him, OMGWTFBBQ he moved in a weird way at a faster speed, ######ing hacker, thats a game breaking exploit.
*shakes head*
If you've ever tried to get a <!--coloro:yellow--><span style="color:yellow"><!--/coloro-->friend<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> into NS, and watched them play, you would see that the upper end of the skill curve has nothing to do with whether they quit or keep playing.
The reason new people quit is because they just can't see the big picture. They don't understand how the game flows, and how their actions contribute or are simply wasted effort. <!--coloro:lime--><span style="color:lime"><!--/coloro-->Not understanding what went wrong and HOW to improve is what is frustrating<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->. If you know what you can do to get better, you'll have incentive to keep playing. But NS can be very overwhelming at first, and that's what makes it hard to get into. Also, it takes time for new NSPlayers to recognize that NS is a team game, much more so than other so-called team games, and this takes some getting used to.
<!--coloro:dodgerblue--><span style="color:dodgerblue"><!--/coloro-->Skills which are difficult to master don't cause quitting<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->. Not understanding how to get better does.
Radix is right. If a player is sufficiently skilled relative to the other players in the game, and the opposing team fails to work together, then that single player should be able to decide the game.
If you've ever tried to get a <!--coloro:yellow--><span style="color:yellow"><!--/coloro-->friend<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> into NS, and watched them play, you would see that the upper end of the skill curve has nothing to do with w<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->hether they quit or keep playing.
<b>The reason new people quit is because they just can't see the big picture. They don't understand how the game flows, and how their actions contribute or are simply wasted effort. <!--coloro:lime--><span style="color:lime"><!--/coloro-->Not understanding what went wrong and HOW to improve is what is frustrating<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->. If you know what you can do to get better, you'll have incentive to keep playing. But NS can be very overwhelming at first, and that's what makes it hard to get into. Also, it takes time for new NSPlayers to recognize that NS is a team game, much more so than other so-called team games, and this takes some getting used to.</b>
<!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:dodgerblue--><span style="color:dodgerblue"><!--/coloro-->Skills which are difficult to master don't cause quitting<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->. Not understanding how to get better does.
Radix is right. If a player is sufficiently skilled relative to the other players in the game, and the opposing team fails to work together, then that single player should be able to decide the game.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Aside from calling everyone stupid ("it's not the learning curve, it's the players" to paraphrase), you do make a valid point in there.
It is really hard to see how much of a contribution you make to the team and because of that, it's difficult to see what you should keep on doing to be successful. They should significantly overhaul the way points are distributed on the scoreboard so team-based actions are encouraged, since being high on the scoreboard is the easily understandable goal for a player. Secondly, no one-man armies because that undermines the entire team's synergy. If no person can kill the entire enemy team in one go, that means team play is encouraged and the game is better for it.
Yes, I am speaking from the point of view of Pubs but that is the majority of the audience.
<!--coloro:#FF00FF--><span style="color:#FF00FF"><!--/coloro-->Also<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->, <!--coloro:#00FFFF--><span style="color:#00FFFF"><!--/coloro-->look <!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro-->at <!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--coloro:#808000--><span style="color:#808000"><!--/coloro-->my <!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--coloro:#A0522D--><span style="color:#A0522D"><!--/coloro-->colorful <!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--coloro:#2F4F4F--><span style="color:#2F4F4F"><!--/coloro-->text<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->. When did this trend start?
natural selection has much content, each one linked, each alien to be learned, each upgrade to be researched, every evolution to make, RTs to be placed, to be protected, to rush, to jetpack, to learn the map.
the main problem is that jes, harshly said, normal players are infact stupid to learn, or call it less harsh, not patient enough to learn everything. and very few even look at the manual. but it can be learned, and if thats accomplished, the big picture is easy to see, the features easely linked to each other...
..
.
we need a awesome tutorial. hard.
Should Natural Selection be simplified to help new players to adapt into the game? Have less things to manage and learn about but give them extra depth that can be gotten from practice and playing well? It is already going into that direction with Marines being able to buy their weapons and the unified resource system, but how far can it go?
For example, Team Fortress 2 (TF2) is an excellent game that is easy to pick up if you ever played a shooter before. Each class has a few tools at their disposal (e.g. rocket jump, uber .etc) that they can learn but a player is never overwhelmed with choice. TF2 is also a very simplified game and designed for pick up play. I can sit a friend down in front of the computer and in a few moments, they will be able to play the game without many questions. Can something like that be accomplished when you have a commander on the teams?
Should Natural Selection be simplified to help new players to adapt into the game? Have less things to manage and learn about but give them extra depth that can be gotten from practice and playing well? It is already going into that direction with Marines being able to buy their weapons and the unified resource system, but how far can it go?
For example, Team Fortress 2 (TF2) is an excellent game that is easy to pick up if you ever played a shooter before. Each class has a few tools at their disposal (e.g. rocket jump, uber .etc) that they can learn but a player is never overwhelmed with choice. TF2 is also a very simplified game and designed for pick up play. I can sit a friend down in front of the computer and in a few moments, they will be able to play the game without many questions. Can something like that be accomplished when you have a commander on the teams?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Tutorial will do quite little good for the understanding of the actual game flow. It can give you the info on how things work, but most likely you'll have to look for the big picture elsewhere.
TF2 is easy to pick up, but at least I feel there's very little you can do without having someone you know with you. At least I got bored of the pub game within the first 15 hours or so, it just doesn't have anything that really gets you thinking unless you've got 5 teammates to play with.
I bet I've got a plenty of things to improve in my TF2 game as an individual too, but it's still quite disappointing to see some relatively high level competetive HLTV demo for the first time and there isn't anything that makes you go 'Oh, wow'. On the other hand speccing NS players like Ed|Rush and Phil never stops amazing me because of their insane movement control.
TF2 is easy to pick up, but at least I feel there's very little you can do without having someone you know with you. At least I got bored of the pub game within the first 15 hours or so, it just doesn't have anything that really gets you thinking unless you've got 5 teammates to play with.
I bet I've got a plenty of things to improve in my TF2 game as an individual too, but it's still quite disappointing to see some relatively high level competetive HLTV demo for the first time and there isn't anything that makes you go 'Oh, wow'. On the other hand speccing NS players like Ed|Rush and Phil never stops amazing me because of their insane movement control.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am beginning to see something. Call me crazy, but people are not really interested in a game taking a lot of skill as much as they are ways to display that skill. In TF2, almost anything that requires practice is very subtle. While things like bunny hop (all arguments go to its proper thread) are very obvious and satisfying to use because of it. Same thing for one man-armies in a team based game. It is a very in your face of saying "look at me, I'm awesome" and I think NS2 should have things like that but related to team work and/instead of individual accomplishment.
You're not crazy, just inexperienced.
Your worldview directs your attention, naturally, toward gameplay that affects your ego. Since you don't think in terms of winning and losing, this is the only reasonable answer as to why anyone else would enjoy a given gameplay mechanic.
If you contrast this with someone who is actually trying to win the game, you will realize that airspeed control and scout jilting are very different, because, while a scout may win a <i>tactical</i> skirmish through fast and intelligent movement, he will not generally swing the outcome of the game. Airspeed control, by itself, also does not swing the outcome of the game, but it does lend itself to a suite of <i>strategic</i> activities that will do so. There is no such suite in TF2.
EDIT: You are right about one thing though, bunny hop is a lot more fun than any movement mechanic in TF2. That's why it has entire maps dedicated to it.
Your worldview directs your attention, naturally, toward gameplay that affects your ego. Since you don't think in terms of winning and losing, this is the only reasonable answer as to why anyone else would enjoy a given gameplay mechanic.
If you contrast this with someone who is actually trying to win the game, you will realize that airspeed control and scout jilting are very different, because, while a scout may win a <i>tactical</i> skirmish through fast and intelligent movement, he will not generally swing the outcome of the game. Airspeed control, by itself, also does not swing the outcome of the game, but it does lend itself to a suite of <i>strategic</i> activities that will do so. There is no such suite in TF2.
EDIT: You are right about one thing though, bunny hop is a lot more fun than any movement mechanic in TF2. That's why it has entire maps dedicated to it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NS2 is going to be a game sold for money and it will need to attract people. To do that, it needs to appeal to the people in a very simple level so they can begin learning the game. Things like visible displays of skill are going to help that because it will make people feel good about themselves and actually encourage them as long as those displays can be reproduced by player in a reasonable fashion. At the same, this is a team game and what is the point of a commander if one person can just massacre the opposing team?
Now stop pushing your ego and actually suggest reasonable ways that NS2 can be successful without appealing only to a niche audience and please don't attack people when you try to make a point because it does not do you any favors.
EDIT: aNytiMe, the two things are not mutually exclusive and I should have explained that better.
EDIT 2: What is a reasonable amount of impact a player should have according to you people? This kind of excludes the commander since that is a specialized position. Should a marine be able to kill 5 skulks and if yes, doesn't that discourage the other team to know that they are dead weight on a team?
Now stop pushing your ego and actually suggest reasonable ways that NS2 can be successful without appealing only to a niche audience and please don't attack people when you try to make a point because it does not do you any favors.
EDIT: aNytiMe, the two things are not mutually exclusive and I should have explained that better.
EDIT 2: What is a reasonable amount of impact a player should have according to you people? This kind of excludes the commander since that is a specialized position. Should a marine be able to kill 5 skulks and if yes, doesn't that discourage the other team to know that they are dead weight on a team?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't know how much NS2 needs to sell to be profitable, but I think the mod has attracted quite a few people already, partitially because its actually not trying to be simple and easy to learn.
Now, if we can smoothen up the learning curve AND add a playerbase that can support public servers of various skill and size, there shouldn't be that many players going 30-2 on public servers. 90% of the more skilled players are going to play competetive as long as the scene is active enough to get PCWs without an hour of organizing and looking for an opponent.
One player should be able to go rampage as long as the oppositing team beats him somehow. Right now I can see most good players moving around the map without anybody parasiting them or informing their position in any way. How are they supposed to lose the game at that point? It was a different situation if they could slip out of every 3 skulk rush or just lmg'd every fade they face.
NS is a nice game because you're not dead weight unless you decide to sit back and hump the armory. There's always need for recappers, res protectors, pg guards, tf builders, guys welding the base and ect. Even if you aren't a top skulk, you can still bite nodes, ambush cappers, guard the gorges, try to parasite and inform where the marines are going and so on. I'm in no way a top skilled individual, even less of it nowadays, but I still feel myself really useful here and there, because I actually try to predict the game and do the damage where it hurts the oppositing team. I can't see any newbie being forced to be dead weight. If they decide to go fade against some good marines, its their own business.
Last night we played a 6v6 against some higher skill mix. We won ns_lost alien round after some 40 mins of nice aa-to-proto vs 2-hives fighting. One guy in our team got some 3 frags during the game, I got probably 3 frags with my 2 fades and an onos. Still I felt we both were really useful during that round. The guy with 3 frags kept on fighting the res war, recapped and bit down the nodes, I kept on pressure on PGs just by being around and showing some agression. Meanwhile the rest of the team could cause the damage elsewhere. I haven't had that great fun in any multiplayer in months, even though I was really disappointed in my lifeform play in general.
The moral of the story: You can be useful in so many ways its not even funny. It just takes a bit of communication and players willing to think about the game. Give NS2 a flawless set of communication methods and give players enough of feedback on the outcomes and the logic of the game, and we might have a game that can still be that rewarding, without removing the great potential ns has for the individual players.
Points for destroying buildings / res towers
bonus points for slaying enemies while you are in a squad
points fo building (gorges)
welding
but it needs to be in a way that doesnt encourage over-padding, but if a skulk is a guy intent on just getting a high score, then running past a RT he'll feel more inclined to bite it down rather than just find the nearest marine and try to get a frag.
Now, if we can smoothen up the learning curve AND add a playerbase that can support public servers of various skill and size, there shouldn't be that many players going 30-2 on public servers. 90% of the more skilled players are going to play competetive as long as the scene is active enough to get PCWs without an hour of organizing and looking for an opponent.
One player should be able to go rampage as long as the oppositing team beats him somehow. Right now I can see most good players moving around the map without anybody parasiting them or informing their position in any way. How are they supposed to lose the game at that point? It was a different situation if they could slip out of every 3 skulk rush or just lmg'd every fade they face.
NS is a nice game because you're not dead weight unless you decide to sit back and hump the armory. There's always need for recappers, res protectors, pg guards, tf builders, guys welding the base and ect. Even if you aren't a top skulk, you can still bite nodes, ambush cappers, guard the gorges, try to parasite and inform where the marines are going and so on. I'm in no way a top skilled individual, even less of it nowadays, but I still feel myself really useful here and there, because I actually try to predict the game and do the damage where it hurts the oppositing team. I can't see any newbie being forced to be dead weight. If they decide to go fade against some good marines, its their own business.
Last night we played a 6v6 against some higher skill mix. We won ns_lost alien round after some 40 mins of nice aa-to-proto vs 2-hives fighting. One guy in our team got some 3 frags during the game, I got probably 3 frags with my 2 fades and an onos. Still I felt we both were really useful during that round. The guy with 3 frags kept on fighting the res war, recapped and bit down the nodes, I kept on pressure on PGs just by being around and showing some agression. Meanwhile the rest of the team could cause the damage elsewhere. I haven't had that great fun in any multiplayer in months, even though I was really disappointed in my lifeform play in general.
The moral of the story: You can be useful in so many ways its not even funny. It just takes a bit of communication and players willing to think about the game. Give NS2 a flawless set of communication methods and give players enough of feedback on the outcomes and the logic of the game, and we might have a game that can still be that rewarding, without removing the great potential ns has for the individual players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If I am assuming have higher single player capabilities and what you said, there needs be a way to tactfully redirect players to support roles of that happens. You are a experienced player and know what to do if a fight is not going your way, but at the same time a new player will be just discouraged. Points for doing support things is an option is a way to herd cats for example.
And Also:
Are hard counters an option? If the alien players see a Marine laying waste with a LMG, should they have precautionary measure to deal with it? Yes, you are a less skilled player than that marine; but if you prepare this form with these upgrades, chances are you are going to beat him until he can reconfigure himself. This by itself means you are a moderate player to pull this off, but it is a way to help new players learn from example. NS2 is part strategy and that would be a very strategic thing to do and encourage communication inside a team without creating a low skill ceiling.
You know how many people logged on to starcraft battlenet, got zerg rushed their first game and logged of with a ,"######ty game," frown on their face? Or the people who first started playing CS and would just get raped?
NS has so much depth and involvement that all you have to do is give them a little jump start, without having to have a full on tutorial, tell the players to start playing ONLY as marine, to only follow orders and always stay with other marines, watch what they do, build how they build, etc. Then when the player feels more advanced, go aliens, and same thing watch what the others do and follow suit.
Most current players who jump into a game of NS for the first time, just start looking around, and then immediately start walking around the map without a clue, then they get killed, again and again and again, BY THEIR LACK OF KNOWLEDGE and THAT is discouraging.
I look at NS as it has two relative skill involvements.
One encompasses teamwork, resource allocation(via chambers, rt placement), basically RTS elements input into the FPS game, fundamental game counters, etc.
The other, is individual skill. You can't <b>purely</b> cater to a team environment!! That <b>WILL</b> kill the game. You can give the normal pub player all the communication/teamwork tools he could ask for. Is he going to use it? Now the game design may slightly punish me for going against the grain, and not running around the map with 3-4 fellow marines. But if I have the skill, knowledge, experience, it is a pleasurable experience to go solo as marine, and just take on the aliens. That doesn't mean I'm not being used by the commander. Same as aliens, especially the aliens. An experienced lone skulk should (in the right circumstances) be able to leverage his skill and knowledge to take down 5 marines.
And NS affords something so lovely as the leverage found in the game. What do I mean by that? The difference between a marine walking into a dark room with jagged walls, and a small entryway. And a skulk walking straight into an open well lit room with a marine at the other end. Circumstances, and game environment have a huge impact on individual skill, because the experienced players know how to. It takes time, and effort to learn the game in such a way.
Look at battlefield 2, you have squads, communication abilities, etc. And the normal puber's still run rampant all alone.
Even a great player can be over-run by #'s and the other half of skill, teamwork/rts elements. And vice versa.
Just because someone yell's ,"Adj went lerk!! Adj went lerk!!!! OMGFDASFGKDFH#$!&$@!"
<img src="http://www.fileden.com/files/2008/2/4/1740788/adj-scared.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
Doesn't mean you need to cap his skill, punish him for being good, or doing it on his own. Being a killing machine does more help for your team than just dropping an RT. And likely, allows your team the ability to enforce the other half of the skill involved in the game, the RTS elements. Flayra has already mentioned that he learned that the game needs to be more FPS than RTS for it to work. Trying to <i>fully</i> enforce RTS probably won't work...
1) Teamwork should only take place if the teams are in the same order of magnitude of skill, just as it is in NS.
2) A good commander should be able to completely disregard his terrible team and build NPC units, I've already suggested this.