LikuI, am the Somberlain.Join Date: 2003-01-10Member: 12128Members
<!--quoteo(post=1692466:date=Nov 4 2008, 10:05 PM:name=X_Stickman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(X_Stickman @ Nov 4 2008, 10:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1692466"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->On another note, it looks like Prop 8 passed in california. Which is disappointing (to say the *least*, I would also use "terrible" and "absolutely ######ing stupid") and puts a dampner on the awesomeness of an Obama win.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1692458:date=Nov 4 2008, 10:03 PM:name=SentrySteve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SentrySteve @ Nov 4 2008, 10:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1692458"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Except for the part about the democrats also taking congress.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well I wouldn't say taking, they're holding a slim majority. The repubs can still block votes, but the fact that there's a dem pres running the exec branch is still a big shift in power.
Obama's shown willingness to compromise, at least within his own party and to an extent on the repub side. I don't think he will end up the lame duck like Carter because he doesn't seem to be distancing himself from dems, and is uniting them instead. Maybe now that the urgency of the campaign is over the unity will be lost, but this economic crisis should be enough to keep the pressure on.
Who cares about Palin? Tina Fey's stunt in SNL is over, gosh darnit.
In other news, holy hell, Obama almost got Montana and Missouri? And he's getting North Carolina? HOLY! I'm still hoping the democrats get over the magic number for filibuster protection.
Doesn't look like the dems will get 60 in senate. I guess they could try to make some republican versions of Lieberman. Hopefully not, though. I like my legislative branches sticky and slow to respond.
X_StickmanNot good enough for a custom title.Join Date: 2003-04-15Member: 15533Members, Constellation
edited November 2008
Just to update a point I made earlier (too early it seems), <a href="http://edition.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/results/ballot.measures/" target="_blank">this site</a> is showing that of the three states that had "ban homosexual marriage" (damn word filter. Seriously.) on the ballot, all three voted for "yes, ban it". There hasn't been a full 100% of precints reporting, but considering all the ###### marriage ones are either 99% or 95%, I'd say it's pretty much sealed.
Arizona: <b>Arizona Proposition 102: Ban on ###### Marriage:</b> Yes: 56% No: 44% (99% of precints reporting)
<b>California Proposition 8: Ban on ###### Marriage</b> Yes: 52% No: 48% (95% reporting... this one might possibly change but I doubt it tbh)
<b>Florida Amendment 2: Ban on ###### Marriage</b> Yes: 62% No: 38% (99% reporting)
Also not exactly the same thing, but Arkansas banned the right for ###### couples to adopt:
<b>Arkansas Initiative 1: Ban on ###### Couples Adopting Children</b> Yes: 57% No: 43% (95% reporting)
douchebagatronCustom member titleJoin Date: 2003-12-20Member: 24581Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
the dems getting enough to prevent filibustering would be a very bad thing. one of the good things about a 2 party system is that there is balance between the 2 sides, but when one side goes unchecked then a lot of crap gets pushed through that should not. take a look at the few years when bush was in the white house and the republicans held congress, there was so much crap that went through it was ridiculous.
and dont even try to make the claim that democrats are better than republicans, because politics breeds corruption no matter what party you are affiliated with.
I hope he pushes for a streamlining of the application and approval for nuclear plants in the NRC. I don't expect it, but I can hope <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" />
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
edited November 2008
<!--quoteo(post=1692506:date=Nov 5 2008, 11:01 AM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(lolfighter @ Nov 5 2008, 11:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1692506"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Are we talking moral or legal rights, Stickman? I'm not sure it has ever been a legal right.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> According to the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, the People retain rights by default. That's why these are a amendments to the state constitutions to take away specific rights regarding marriage and adoption.
:Edit: That's a quick gloss and the way these states think they can get away with it is a twisted logic. A lot of states want to, and have, defined legal marriage as specifically between a man and a woman. Then they argue that the federal Gov't has no business butting in because A.) it's a religious defintion tied specifically to Christianity and B.) the Fed Gov't has no business mixing religion and the gov't/ opressing their religion(laugh/cry at the astounding hypocrisy and wilful ignorance). However, by this twisted logic they could also define marriage as only between a white man and white woman, or rich man and rich woman, or any such other nonsense. Not to say that that would happen, but to claim it's not taking away legal rights(I know you were asking, but many don't even ask) is disingenuous at best. Nevermind the fact that religions other than Christianity have the institution of marriage.
X_StickmanNot good enough for a custom title.Join Date: 2003-04-15Member: 15533Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1692506:date=Nov 5 2008, 04:01 PM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(lolfighter @ Nov 5 2008, 04:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1692506"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Are we talking moral or legal rights, Stickman? I'm not sure it has ever been a legal right.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
California's supreme court ruled that it's constitution declared ###### marriage legal, and therefore a constitutional right.
Prop 8 amends the constitution to remove that right.
So yes, it's the removal of both moral and legal rights in that sense. I don't actually know much about the other two bans (whether they're bans or amendments or whatever), but I still regard them as wrong.
Anyone see that it looks like Prop1A in California will pass? It has nothing to do with us East coasters, but it would be damned cool to have high-speed rail from LA to San Francisco at 220mph.
QuaunautThe longest seven days in history...Join Date: 2003-03-21Member: 14759Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1692523:date=Nov 5 2008, 08:47 AM:name=0x00000194)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(0x00000194 @ Nov 5 2008, 08:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1692523"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Anyone see that it looks like Prop1A in California will pass? It has nothing to do with us East coasters, but it would be damned cool to have high-speed rail from LA to San Francisco at 220mph.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It did.
And to Prop 8: The other side lied, cheated, blackmailed, and stole its way to winning this.
But next time, when we pass it universally as a <i>people</i>, we will ######ing win. We'll be ready for their bull######.
<!--quoteo(post=1692510:date=Nov 5 2008, 05:13 PM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(locallyunscene @ Nov 5 2008, 05:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1692510"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->[...]However, by this twisted logic they could also define marriage as only between a white man and white woman, or rich man and rich woman, or any such other nonsense.[...]<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> How about between <a href="http://www.bunny-comic.com/?id=1264" target="_blank">men named Kevin and women named Kate?</a>
<!--quoteo(post=1692505:date=Nov 5 2008, 09:36 AM:name=6john)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(6john @ Nov 5 2008, 09:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1692505"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->the dems getting enough to prevent filibustering would be a very bad thing. one of the good things about a 2 party system is that there is balance between the 2 sides, but when one side goes unchecked then a lot of crap gets pushed through that should not. take a look at the few years when bush was in the white house and the republicans held congress, there was so much crap that went through it was ridiculous.
and dont even try to make the claim that democrats are better than republicans, because politics breeds corruption no matter what party you are affiliated with.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> But now we have the exact same thing with Democrats. The Republicans didn't have any where near the supermajority it takes to break the veto. All they had was the executive branch and the legislative branch. Now the Dems have the same thing.
<!--quoteo(post=1692461:date=Nov 4 2008, 10:18 PM:name=Nicksaerian)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Nicksaerian @ Nov 4 2008, 10:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1692461"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I agree, the vast majority of elections are always a choice between the lesser of two evils.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not this one. Obama won and solidly. Finally after years of the Newt Gingrich neo-conservative movement, there is finally a movement based unity, hope, and change. I am honored to have been able to support a campaign that stood to bring that positive change against a rigorous backdrop of fearful/hateful narrow-mindedness and ignorance. I never expected my state (Kentucky) to go for Obama, and yes I have been threatened by McConnell & Palin supporters as a ****-lover and a godless communist. But I never wavered. I used my right to vote and I contributed to something which is truly legendary and re-affirms my hope in the future of my home nation -- the <i>United </i>States of America.
What I'm really wondering now is what do people who don't live in the USA think about my nation now. So what say you? I know there are many international members in this community. Does this change your views of the US? How so?
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
A new pres does not change views on day one, he still has to make it happen and with that I mean "fix all the bridges Bush mangaged to burn down and mend the reletions with the outside world (not usa). It's one thing to say all the campaign stuff and quite a different beast to tame when actually attemping to make it happen <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
Also I hope the USA will now come out of its shell of impenetrable adamantium so world trade and relations can florish once more...
Obama is step one, getting your own economy out of the sludge is step 2 (in combination with world trade) it can be done. Not sure if it can be done in 4 years... I vote for Obama's second term if he manages to fix at least some of the problems <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
<!--quoteo(post=1692566:date=Nov 5 2008, 05:11 PM:name=the_x5)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(the_x5 @ Nov 5 2008, 05:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1692566"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not this one. Obama won and solidly. Finally after years of the Newt Gingrich neo-conservative movement, there is finally a movement based unity, hope, and change. I am honored to have been able to support a campaign that stood to bring that positive change against a rigorous backdrop of fearful/hateful narrow-mindedness and ignorance. I never expected my state (Kentucky) to go for Obama, and yes I have been threatened by McConnell & Palin supporters as a ****-lover and a godless communist. But I never wavered. I used my right to vote and I contributed to something which is truly legendary and re-affirms my hope in the future of my home nation -- the <i>United </i>States of America. What I'm really wondering now is what do people who don't live in the USA think about my nation now. So what say you? I know there are many international members in this community. Does this change your views of the US? How so?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Obama is not based on "unity, hope, and change" any more than the "Newt Gingrich neo-conservative movement" except insofar as they used those words a lot. Gingrich's Contract with America brought more unity than we'll even see Democrats (or Republicans) have to the House by encouraging him to use his newfound power to force everyone to vote in lockstep with the Republican line instead of working towards whatever they felt like. We saw more unity voting under the kind of House Gingrich got us than we ever had before. The Republicans hope their stuff works just as much as Obama hopes his stuff works. And obviously, the Contract with America was all about change.
You're not the first and not the last person to call the other political party a bunch of narrow minded ignorant people, and I'm not going to try to get you to see the error of your ways any more than I'll try to get the people on the other side who called you a godless commie to see the error of THEIR ways, but I'd urge you to examine things very closely and determine whether half the country really <i>is</i> stupid and you're just on the smart half, or if maybe YOUR blind rejection of everything they stand for might actually have something in common with their blind rejection of everything YOU stand for. Obviously you hate every single one of their policies and it's entirely clear why they are all so awful, but doesn't it seem a little weird that they think the same thing about all of your policies?
Speaking as international student and H1B Visa worker, I welcome Obama. Before George W. Bush, the world didn't hold hand and mocked American foreign policy, at least not in the Middle East.
He also certainly make getting SSN, Visa, and custom process hell for my fellow colleagues. These guys are god damn brilliant too.
The democrats did not win a filibuster-proof senate because states like the one I live in (Kentucky) couldn't seem to vote out corrupt politicians like Mitch McConnell (although Bruce Lunsford was a weak challenge, for goodness sake get a woman or minority candidate with a fresh background, not pitting one crook against another crook). The good news for my state is that John Yarmuth held on to his seat when challenged by Anne Northrup (who he defeated in their previous race to end her long tenure) and there were several district and judicial victories where the moderate or moderate-liberal candidate beat out a highly conservative candidate. Cities in my state like Louisville, Lexington, Richmond, and Newport are all starting to cause a shift to a more moderate view.
In states like New Mexico and Virginia, Latin-Americans and College Students gave Barack Obama a solid victory in a states that have been leaning towards the Republican party since the 1960's. Even more satisfying was Kay Hagan defeating Elizabeth Dole and her "prayer warriors". No, I'm not kidding. Her campaign focused on calling Kay Hagan a "Godless communist liberal" Also not kidding, unfortunately
There is a LONG way to go, but the feeling across many of the states and cities is something that has not been felt since the week after 9/11: unity. Barack's message of unity is the single most important thing he can do to re-assure the US economy. For when people unite and work together, amazing feats can be accomplished that would have seemed impossible.
Food for thought:
McCain's concession speech, arguably his best speech yet and a re-affirmation for the respect I have for the old fighter-pilot. <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24QdO4TGMYc" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24QdO4TGMYc</a>
Obama's victory speech in Chicago. WATCH THIS PLEASE! <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jll5baCAaQU" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jll5baCAaQU</a>
9/11 didn't bring unity. If it did, we'd still have it. 9/11 brought a fad of unity just as Obama is bringing. I said it in earlier posts, just because the Dems have control of the executive and congress doesn't mean they will get along. Congress isn't going to hand over power and control to Obama just because he is of the same party. Neither will the bureaucracy. Best of luck bringing change to the system.
<!--quoteo(post=1692575:date=Nov 5 2008, 07:35 PM:name=TychoCelchuuu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TychoCelchuuu @ Nov 5 2008, 07:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1692575"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You're not the first and not the last person to call the other political party a bunch of narrow minded ignorant people, and I'm not going to try to get you to see the error of your ways any more than I'll try to get the people on the other side who called you a godless commie to see the error of THEIR ways, but I'd urge you to examine things very closely and determine whether half the country really <i>is</i> stupid and you're just on the smart half, or if maybe YOUR blind rejection of everything they stand for might actually have something in common with their blind rejection of everything YOU stand for. Obviously you hate every single one of their policies and it's entirely clear why they are all so awful, but doesn't it seem a little weird that they think the same thing about all of your policies?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Hmm, well TychoCelchuuu I suppose was coming of as a bit over-zealous now that I go back an read what I wrote. It's just that I've been having to counter negativity from certain people today who are all doom & apocalypse now. (Not to mention I couldn't avoid the Rush Limbaugh on the radio at work today because somebody wanted the country station.) I guess I've just been worked up a bit about it and am venting that stress in my writing. Don't over-analyze and judge me here.
I'm also hungry, and I need to get this email sent so I can get off the computer. (talking here with you all is fun, but distracting) So I'm kind of irritable and light-headed -- not a particularly good status for an intellectual discussion like this.
Of course, I don't think one political party has all the answers or is better than the other. Nor do I agree with any candidate fully, even Barack Obama (in fact I agree with him about 85% according to an interesting website, which is unusually high, but certainly not 100%). There are also instances where I liked the "other" (using your term) party's candidate better. It really depends on the individual candidate and more importantly, what policies and issues I agree with them on.
Let me share something I posted of Facebook a week prior to yesterday's election that give some insight into my decision making process for voting:
<!--QuoteBegin-Facebook.com+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Facebook.com)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Some thoughts about the right to vote...
Saturday, November 1, 2008 at 6:36pm | Edit Note | Delete
1. Check your registration info (it show you: if you can vote, where to vote, and which districts and precincts you vote for). If you live in Kentucky like me, you can do that by visiting this hyperlink: <a href="https://cdcbp.ky.gov/VICWeb/index.jsp" target="_blank">https://cdcbp.ky.gov/VICWeb/index.jsp</a>
2. Make a list of YOUR priorities for government and you personal opinions on each of the major issues
3. Research a list of where the candidates stand on each issue. The best way to do this is actually read what the candidates post on their sites about what they explicitly say their stances on the issues are (ignoring anything they say about the other guy/gal), and then use an external 3rd party to fact check. This really isn't hard or time consuming if you have broadband internet access.
4. First, compare & contrast and choose the best-match for each office you can vote for to what your stated opinions, objectively.
5. Then after evaluating objectively, you'll then have to subjectively determine how effective you think they will be in meeting those goals and priorities. This is usually when character & judgment comes into play. I get really irritated when politicians and other people confuse the two. (unfortunately, often happens in negative ads and mudslinging) One's character has more to do with alignment (good vs. evil, order vs. chaos), identity, willpower, wisdom, temperament, trustworthiness, and charisma. Whereas one's judgment has more to do with the candidate's past record of actions and thing they have said, their present stated stances and actions, and what you personally predict they will do in the future base on that. I use character to determine that prediction, and use that overall judgment factor to make my subjective comparison, which in turn is used for my overall decision.
6. Vote on your decided candidates. For this year, send in an absentee ballot (too late by now) or show up at your precinct on Tuesday, November 4th, between 06:00 and 18:00 (6AM to 6PM).
I would recommend everybody take a little time to figure out this comparison for who they are voting for, yet it seems almost nobody takes the short amount of time to do this comparison. Mudslinging from emails, stump speeches, and negative political ads are not a good source for fact. Common sense, right? (personal blogs, Radar News, TalkLeft, Fox News, and Rush Limbaugh are not good sources, for example) Well, you'd be surprised... I have a favorite shirt which says, "Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups." This is one of the things it's referring to. It never ceases to amaze me that people frequently don't take the time to learn the truth about a rumor, and just accept it as truth. (and I don't just mean in reference to politics on that one) There are several instances that I can give this year where I've overheard people talking about or referencing a rumor as if it's a fact. In also every instance, it's simple ignorance, where they have been misinformed by a rumor instead of a fact. Alas, this is the reason I generally hate politics, too much drama and not enough logical facts and significant action.
Still, non-participation will not help change anything. As a citizen of the United States of America, I'm lucky to have my right to vote and speak my opinion freely. This is a right of citizenship, and one I feel all citizen should utilize. I've seen reports that voter participation could be as much as 80% in some "battle ground" regions which is unheard of for those regions. Personally, I think that's pathetic. I mean, if you don't vote, doesn't that mean that you are technically saying everything is perfect as-is? Well then, perhaps those who don't vote should pay higher taxes to support their perfect system, no? I'm sure the IRS would be happy for the extra revenue. I guess what I'm trying to get at is that I feel that if you are a citizen in a democracy; then you have both a right AND a duty to vote.
Please make your voice heard and choose wisely!
Just my 2 cents. :-)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I try hard not to tell people what they should think. I'm not perfect but I try to avoid that whenever possible whether it be in a political discussion such as this or debating a new idea for Natural-Selection as you all have observed me doing in the I&S over the years I've been a member here. Part of this is trying to see the point of view of the other side. Sometimes is hard, especially when intolerance and fearful hatred are being exhibited from a group of like-minded individuals and I observe that. I am human, just like you all. I'm not entirely objective. I can make subjective stereotypes that do not represent individual viewpoint differences. In person, I typically have little difficulty finding common ground. So, I apologize for coming off as partisan sounding above. Know that personally, I think everybody should be entitled to freedom of speech. Even if you put your foot in your mouth doing it sometimes, it's still important to be able to express your thoughts, feelings, and opinions. So point taken TychoCelchuuu.
<!--quoteo(post=1692581:date=Nov 5 2008, 08:20 PM:name=Nicksaerian)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Nicksaerian @ Nov 5 2008, 08:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1692581"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->9/11 didn't bring unity. If it did, we'd still have it. 9/11 brought a fad of unity just as Obama is bringing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Unity isn't a permanent state though. At some level, even during the most divisive times, there is still a level of unity; the degree of unity is just subject to change. Plus, most people are just worried about their daily lives and not all of the political drama. (true for just about anywhere in the world)
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=TychoCelchuuu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TychoCelchuuu)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Obviously you hate every single one of their policies and it's entirely clear why they are all so awful, but doesn't it seem a little weird that they think the same thing about all of your policies?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No that's not true, but I can see looking back at what I wrote why it came off sounding like that.
I'll call it quits for today. I'm too tired and I'm done arguing and talking about politics for a few years at least. One campaign in a life-time is plenty lol! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
<!--quoteo(post=1692583:date=Nov 5 2008, 08:25 PM:name=the_x5)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(the_x5 @ Nov 5 2008, 08:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1692583"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Unity isn't a permanent state though. At some level, even during the most divisive times, there is still a level of unity; the degree of unity is just subject to change. Plus, most people are just worried about their daily lives and not all of the political drama. (true for just about anywhere in the world)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ridiculous. I say we just sew all Americans together.
As for how I, the world, za warudo (wry), see the U.S. now: I'm more hopeful for you than I've been in a long time. However, I am decidedly "wait and see" about this. I KNOW Obama can talk the talk, he has amply demonstrated that. Next up, he must show that he can also walk the walk, or all this counts for nothing.
Comments
Screw you, California.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are you kidding me? ###### that. God damnit. I should beat the ###### out of any of my neighbors that voted Yes on 8.
And we aren't actually sure on Prop 8 getting passed. Only 13% precincts reporting.
FALSE ALARM EVERYONE.
M-M-M-M-M-MONSTER KILL
Well I wouldn't say taking, they're holding a slim majority. The repubs can still block votes, but the fact that there's a dem pres running the exec branch is still a big shift in power.
Obama's shown willingness to compromise, at least within his own party and to an extent on the repub side. I don't think he will end up the lame duck like Carter because he doesn't seem to be distancing himself from dems, and is uniting them instead. Maybe now that the urgency of the campaign is over the unity will be lost, but this economic crisis should be enough to keep the pressure on.
<!--sizeo:7--><span style="font-size:36pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--fonto:Arial Black--><span style="font-family:Arial Black"><!--/fonto--><b>PHEW</b><!--fontc--></span><!--/fontc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
In other news, holy hell, Obama almost got Montana and Missouri? And he's getting North Carolina? HOLY!
I'm still hoping the democrats get over the magic number for filibuster protection.
Arizona:
<b>Arizona Proposition 102: Ban on ###### Marriage:</b>
Yes: 56%
No: 44%
(99% of precints reporting)
<b>California Proposition 8: Ban on ###### Marriage</b>
Yes: 52%
No: 48%
(95% reporting... this one might possibly change but I doubt it tbh)
<b>Florida Amendment 2: Ban on ###### Marriage</b>
Yes: 62%
No: 38%
(99% reporting)
Also not exactly the same thing, but Arkansas banned the right for ###### couples to adopt:
<b>Arkansas Initiative 1: Ban on ###### Couples Adopting Children</b>
Yes: 57%
No: 43%
(95% reporting)
Sooo....
Obama: Yay
Stripping away people's rights: Boooo.
and dont even try to make the claim that democrats are better than republicans, because politics breeds corruption no matter what party you are affiliated with.
According to the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, the People retain rights by default. That's why these are a amendments to the state constitutions to take away specific rights regarding marriage and adoption.
:Edit: That's a quick gloss and the way these states think they can get away with it is a twisted logic. A lot of states want to, and have, defined legal marriage as specifically between a man and a woman. Then they argue that the federal Gov't has no business butting in because A.) it's a religious defintion tied specifically to Christianity and B.) the Fed Gov't has no business mixing religion and the gov't/ opressing their religion(laugh/cry at the astounding hypocrisy and wilful ignorance). However, by this twisted logic they could also define marriage as only between a white man and white woman, or rich man and rich woman, or any such other nonsense. Not to say that that would happen, but to claim it's not taking away legal rights(I know you were asking, but many don't even ask) is disingenuous at best. Nevermind the fact that religions other than Christianity have the institution of marriage.
California's supreme court ruled that it's constitution declared ###### marriage legal, and therefore a constitutional right.
Prop 8 amends the constitution to remove that right.
So yes, it's the removal of both moral and legal rights in that sense. I don't actually know much about the other two bans (whether they're bans or amendments or whatever), but I still regard them as wrong.
It did.
And to Prop 8: The other side lied, cheated, blackmailed, and stole its way to winning this.
But next time, when we pass it universally as a <i>people</i>, we will ######ing win. We'll be ready for their bull######.
How about between <a href="http://www.bunny-comic.com/?id=1264" target="_blank">men named Kevin and women named Kate?</a>
and dont even try to make the claim that democrats are better than republicans, because politics breeds corruption no matter what party you are affiliated with.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But now we have the exact same thing with Democrats. The Republicans didn't have any where near the supermajority it takes to break the veto. All they had was the executive branch and the legislative branch. Now the Dems have the same thing.
Not this one. Obama won and solidly. Finally after years of the Newt Gingrich neo-conservative movement, there is finally a movement based unity, hope, and change. I am honored to have been able to support a campaign that stood to bring that positive change against a rigorous backdrop of fearful/hateful narrow-mindedness and ignorance. I never expected my state (Kentucky) to go for Obama, and yes I have been threatened by McConnell & Palin supporters as a ****-lover and a godless communist. But I never wavered. I used my right to vote and I contributed to something which is truly legendary and re-affirms my hope in the future of my home nation -- the <i>United </i>States of America.
What I'm really wondering now is what do people who don't live in the USA think about my nation now. So what say you? I know there are many international members in this community. Does this change your views of the US? How so?
Also I hope the USA will now come out of its shell of impenetrable adamantium so world trade and relations can florish once more...
Obama is step one, getting your own economy out of the sludge is step 2 (in combination with world trade) it can be done. Not sure if it can be done in 4 years... I vote for Obama's second term if he manages to fix at least some of the problems <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
What I'm really wondering now is what do people who don't live in the USA think about my nation now. So what say you? I know there are many international members in this community. Does this change your views of the US? How so?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Obama is not based on "unity, hope, and change" any more than the "Newt Gingrich neo-conservative movement" except insofar as they used those words a lot. Gingrich's Contract with America brought more unity than we'll even see Democrats (or Republicans) have to the House by encouraging him to use his newfound power to force everyone to vote in lockstep with the Republican line instead of working towards whatever they felt like. We saw more unity voting under the kind of House Gingrich got us than we ever had before. The Republicans hope their stuff works just as much as Obama hopes his stuff works. And obviously, the Contract with America was all about change.
You're not the first and not the last person to call the other political party a bunch of narrow minded ignorant people, and I'm not going to try to get you to see the error of your ways any more than I'll try to get the people on the other side who called you a godless commie to see the error of THEIR ways, but I'd urge you to examine things very closely and determine whether half the country really <i>is</i> stupid and you're just on the smart half, or if maybe YOUR blind rejection of everything they stand for might actually have something in common with their blind rejection of everything YOU stand for. Obviously you hate every single one of their policies and it's entirely clear why they are all so awful, but doesn't it seem a little weird that they think the same thing about all of your policies?
Speaking as international student and H1B Visa worker, I welcome Obama. Before George W. Bush, the world didn't hold hand and mocked American foreign policy, at least not in the Middle East.
He also certainly make getting SSN, Visa, and custom process hell for my fellow colleagues. These guys are god damn brilliant too.
In states like New Mexico and Virginia, Latin-Americans and College Students gave Barack Obama a solid victory in a states that have been leaning towards the Republican party since the 1960's. Even more satisfying was Kay Hagan defeating Elizabeth Dole and her "prayer warriors". No, I'm not kidding. Her campaign focused on calling Kay Hagan a "Godless communist liberal" Also not kidding, unfortunately
There is a LONG way to go, but the feeling across many of the states and cities is something that has not been felt since the week after 9/11: unity. Barack's message of unity is the single most important thing he can do to re-assure the US economy. For when people unite and work together, amazing feats can be accomplished that would have seemed impossible.
Food for thought:
McCain's concession speech, arguably his best speech yet and a re-affirmation for the respect I have for the old fighter-pilot.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24QdO4TGMYc" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24QdO4TGMYc</a>
Obama's victory speech in Chicago. WATCH THIS PLEASE!
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jll5baCAaQU" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jll5baCAaQU</a>
Hmm, well TychoCelchuuu I suppose was coming of as a bit over-zealous now that I go back an read what I wrote. It's just that I've been having to counter negativity from certain people today who are all doom & apocalypse now. (Not to mention I couldn't avoid the Rush Limbaugh on the radio at work today because somebody wanted the country station.) I guess I've just been worked up a bit about it and am venting that stress in my writing. Don't over-analyze and judge me here.
I'm also hungry, and I need to get this email sent so I can get off the computer. (talking here with you all is fun, but distracting) So I'm kind of irritable and light-headed -- not a particularly good status for an intellectual discussion like this.
Of course, I don't think one political party has all the answers or is better than the other. Nor do I agree with any candidate fully, even Barack Obama (in fact I agree with him about 85% according to an interesting website, which is unusually high, but certainly not 100%). There are also instances where I liked the "other" (using your term) party's candidate better. It really depends on the individual candidate and more importantly, what policies and issues I agree with them on.
Let me share something I posted of Facebook a week prior to yesterday's election that give some insight into my decision making process for voting:
<!--QuoteBegin-Facebook.com+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Facebook.com)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Some thoughts about the right to vote...
Saturday, November 1, 2008 at 6:36pm | Edit Note | Delete
1. Check your registration info (it show you: if you can vote, where to vote, and which districts and precincts you vote for). If you live in Kentucky like me, you can do that by visiting this hyperlink: <a href="https://cdcbp.ky.gov/VICWeb/index.jsp" target="_blank">https://cdcbp.ky.gov/VICWeb/index.jsp</a>
2. Make a list of YOUR priorities for government and you personal opinions on each of the major issues
3. Research a list of where the candidates stand on each issue. The best way to do this is actually read what the candidates post on their sites about what they explicitly say their stances on the issues are (ignoring anything they say about the other guy/gal), and then use an external 3rd party to fact check. This really isn't hard or time consuming if you have broadband internet access.
4. First, compare & contrast and choose the best-match for each office you can vote for to what your stated opinions, objectively.
5. Then after evaluating objectively, you'll then have to subjectively determine how effective you think they will be in meeting those goals and priorities. This is usually when character & judgment comes into play. I get really irritated when politicians and other people confuse the two. (unfortunately, often happens in negative ads and mudslinging) One's character has more to do with alignment (good vs. evil, order vs. chaos), identity, willpower, wisdom, temperament, trustworthiness, and charisma. Whereas one's judgment has more to do with the candidate's past record of actions and thing they have said, their present stated stances and actions, and what you personally predict they will do in the future base on that. I use character to determine that prediction, and use that overall judgment factor to make my subjective comparison, which in turn is used for my overall decision.
6. Vote on your decided candidates. For this year, send in an absentee ballot (too late by now) or show up at your precinct on Tuesday, November 4th, between 06:00 and 18:00 (6AM to 6PM).
I would recommend everybody take a little time to figure out this comparison for who they are voting for, yet it seems almost nobody takes the short amount of time to do this comparison. Mudslinging from emails, stump speeches, and negative political ads are not a good source for fact. Common sense, right? (personal blogs, Radar News, TalkLeft, Fox News, and Rush Limbaugh are not good sources, for example) Well, you'd be surprised... I have a favorite shirt which says, "Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups." This is one of the things it's referring to. It never ceases to amaze me that people frequently don't take the time to learn the truth about a rumor, and just accept it as truth. (and I don't just mean in reference to politics on that one) There are several instances that I can give this year where I've overheard people talking about or referencing a rumor as if it's a fact. In also every instance, it's simple ignorance, where they have been misinformed by a rumor instead of a fact. Alas, this is the reason I generally hate politics, too much drama and not enough logical facts and significant action.
Still, non-participation will not help change anything. As a citizen of the United States of America, I'm lucky to have my right to vote and speak my opinion freely. This is a right of citizenship, and one I feel all citizen should utilize. I've seen reports that voter participation could be as much as 80% in some "battle ground" regions which is unheard of for those regions. Personally, I think that's pathetic. I mean, if you don't vote, doesn't that mean that you are technically saying everything is perfect as-is? Well then, perhaps those who don't vote should pay higher taxes to support their perfect system, no? I'm sure the IRS would be happy for the extra revenue. I guess what I'm trying to get at is that I feel that if you are a citizen in a democracy; then you have both a right AND a duty to vote.
Please make your voice heard and choose wisely!
Just my 2 cents. :-)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I try hard not to tell people what they should think. I'm not perfect but I try to avoid that whenever possible whether it be in a political discussion such as this or debating a new idea for Natural-Selection as you all have observed me doing in the I&S over the years I've been a member here. Part of this is trying to see the point of view of the other side. Sometimes is hard, especially when intolerance and fearful hatred are being exhibited from a group of like-minded individuals and I observe that. I am human, just like you all. I'm not entirely objective. I can make subjective stereotypes that do not represent individual viewpoint differences. In person, I typically have little difficulty finding common ground. So, I apologize for coming off as partisan sounding above. Know that personally, I think everybody should be entitled to freedom of speech. Even if you put your foot in your mouth doing it sometimes, it's still important to be able to express your thoughts, feelings, and opinions. So point taken TychoCelchuuu.
Unity isn't a permanent state though. At some level, even during the most divisive times, there is still a level of unity; the degree of unity is just subject to change. Plus, most people are just worried about their daily lives and not all of the political drama. (true for just about anywhere in the world)
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=TychoCelchuuu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TychoCelchuuu)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Obviously you hate every single one of their policies and it's entirely clear why they are all so awful, but doesn't it seem a little weird that they think the same thing about all of your policies?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No that's not true, but I can see looking back at what I wrote why it came off sounding like that.
I'll call it quits for today. I'm too tired and I'm done arguing and talking about politics for a few years at least. One campaign in a life-time is plenty lol! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
Ridiculous. I say we just sew all Americans together.