<!--quoteo(post=1690804:date=Oct 19 2008, 10:26 AM:name=Haze)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Haze @ Oct 19 2008, 10:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1690804"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If DRM were to "wear off" after two months I think it would solve most of the big issues while letting long-time customers use the game to their hearts content.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would fully support this option. Heck, make it 6 months and I would still be ok with it. All they have to do is guarantee they will be releasing a patch that removes the DRM *fully* and I would be all over the game <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
I guess the only problem with this is, is when you install in 5 years later it will have the DRM still (off the disc), which could run into issues, but I think some good solution could be found.
<!--quoteo(post=1690895:date=Oct 20 2008, 03:11 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Align @ Oct 20 2008, 03:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1690895"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Whatever happened to CD-keys? Those seemed fairly effective and non-intrusive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Lots of games still have them. BF2 uses CD Keys, Company of Heroes does if you don't buy it on Steam, Mass Effect has one, etc. I'd have more examples but I barely ever buy games that aren't on Steam any more.
LikuI, am the Somberlain.Join Date: 2003-01-10Member: 12128Members
<!--quoteo(post=1690747:date=Oct 18 2008, 03:55 PM:name=TychoCelchuuu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TychoCelchuuu @ Oct 18 2008, 03:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1690747"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've never understood why people get worked up over a DRM scheme that is about as restrictive as, say, the operating system that they've chosen to install.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because people don't like being told what they can and can't do with their own ######.
<!--quoteo(post=1690904:date=Oct 20 2008, 03:36 PM:name=Liku)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Liku @ Oct 20 2008, 03:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1690904"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Because people don't like being told what they can and can't do with their own ######.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> What does DRM not let you do aside from install and uninstall it 12 times in a row without taking 5 minutes to reactivate it? And the game isn't really your own ######. You're actually buying a license to use the game.
LikuI, am the Somberlain.Join Date: 2003-01-10Member: 12128Members
<!--quoteo(post=1690912:date=Oct 20 2008, 03:38 PM:name=TychoCelchuuu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TychoCelchuuu @ Oct 20 2008, 03:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1690912"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What does DRM not let you do aside from install and uninstall it 12 times in a row without taking 5 minutes to reactivate it?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It'd be nice not to have to jump through hoops to install or uninstall. I shouldn't have to call EA to tell them "why" I'm installing it for a 4th time. It's also lovely that it installs that SecuROM bull###### under my nose as is an utter ###### to get rid of.
QuaunautThe longest seven days in history...Join Date: 2003-03-21Member: 14759Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1690912:date=Oct 20 2008, 02:38 PM:name=TychoCelchuuu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TychoCelchuuu @ Oct 20 2008, 02:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1690912"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You're actually buying a license to use the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which is an exercise in bull######, I think we can all agree.
<!--quoteo(post=1690932:date=Oct 20 2008, 10:22 PM:name=Quaunaut)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Quaunaut @ Oct 20 2008, 10:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1690932"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Which is an exercise in bull######, I think we can all agree.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Uh, okay. If you don't like it you don't have to buy any games. Nobody forces you into any of this.
I think the point he's trying to make is that if I go buy a Monopoly board game, Corvette, or dishwasher, I have bought a "copy" of the product, and I may wash dishes in my Corvette, play with my dishwasher, and put wheels on the monopoly board and drive it around. It's mine and I can do with it as I please. (short of making my own copies and sell them, since I didn't buy the rights to the product, but that's irrelevant)
Whoever decided that software should be different and special and you're really only buying a license to use it is retarded. Buying the right to use it but not own it is basically saying everyone is leasing their games from the developer, again, retarded. I bought my copy of the game and can(/should) do whatever I please with it. I can use it's disc as a coaster, put different sounds in for the software to use, use it's sounds for other stuff on my system, make plugins for it... As long as it doesn't hurt the manufacturer it doesn't really make any difference what I do with stuff I've purchased.
<!--quoteo(post=1690965:date=Oct 21 2008, 09:29 AM:name=A_Boojum_Snark)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(A_Boojum_Snark @ Oct 21 2008, 09:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1690965"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Whoever decided that software should be different and special and you're really only buying a license to use it is retarded. Buying the right to use it but not own it is basically saying everyone is leasing their games from the developer, again, retarded. I bought my copy of the game and can(/should) do whatever I please with it. I can use it's disc as a coaster, put different sounds in for the software to use, use it's sounds for other stuff on my system, make plugins for it... As long as it doesn't hurt the manufacturer it doesn't really make any difference what I do with stuff I've purchased.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'll be sure to get on the phone with all the lawyers behind the EULA and tell them they're "retarded," but they'll probably say that the point of the EULA is exactly what your problem with it is: to make it so that software is NOT exactly like a Monopoly board. You might not <i>agree</i> that that should be the case, but that's because of a lot of different reasons that are subjective rather than objective. Like I said, if you don't like the way software licenses work, you can always not purchase them. The thing is, you're perfectly free to make your own software and sell the actual program, not a license to use it.
QuaunautThe longest seven days in history...Join Date: 2003-03-21Member: 14759Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
And so, people pirate because those rules are bull######.
I understand you're playing devil's advocate here Tycho, but more than once here you've stepped over the line from "Well, I could understand their position" to "Complete Corporate Shill". I'm as much if not moreso of a capitalist than anybody here, but when there is mass collusion between so many game companies, and getting rid of DRM seems to be the last thing on their mind, yet its one of their customer's(PAYING CUSTOMERS) number 1 complaints, then we have something wrong.
<!--quoteo(post=1690975:date=Oct 21 2008, 11:11 AM:name=Quaunaut)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Quaunaut @ Oct 21 2008, 11:11 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1690975"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And so, people pirate because those rules are bull######.
I understand you're playing devil's advocate here Tycho, but more than once here you've stepped over the line from "Well, I could understand their position" to "Complete Corporate Shill". I'm as much if not moreso of a capitalist than anybody here, but when there is mass collusion between so many game companies, and getting rid of DRM seems to be the last thing on their mind, yet its one of their customer's(PAYING CUSTOMERS) number 1 complaints, then we have something wrong.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You raise some interesting points:
<b>Point 1</b>: People pirate games because they want to own the software, not a license to use the software <b> Point 2</b>: I am a complete corporate shill
<b>Point 3</b>: You are more of a capitalist than anyone around here
<b>Point 4</b>: Game companies are colluding to do something
<b>Point 5</b>: Game companies don't care about getting rid of DRM
<b>Point 6</b>: DRM is one of the paying customer's number one complaints
For the first point (people pirate games because license agreements are dumb), I would ask you to provide some examples. I for one have never heard of anybody pirating a game because they don't like the EULA, and if that were the case, it would be a little hypocritical unless they pirated every single piece of software they own except for the Open Source stuff, because everything's got an EULA. Not only have I never heard anyone say they do that, this is also the first time I've even heard of anyone saying that OTHER people pirate for that reason. If you can substantiate the claim more, I'll address it more, but I think I would be pretty justified in dismissing it as it applies to video games. For Open Source Software like OpenOffice.org vs MSWord, it might make more sense, but with games I doubt anyone cares about the EULA, seeing as gamers are running Windows which itself has a license agreement.
I'll address point #2 and point #3 concurrently. First, if point 2 (I'm a shill) is true, point 3 (you're more of a capitalist) is wrong because I'd be getting paid for talking on behalf of a corporation whereas you're advocating stealing everything that you want without paying for it. I think it's clear which side of that argument is more capitalist. Secondly, I'm not a corporate shill, because my two points are thus: there is DRM, and it doesn't annoy me, and I think everyone should get over it, but if you CAN'T get over it, don't buy it. That's totally capitalist. I want to let the market work it out. You, on the other hand, want it both ways: you want your principles, but you also want the goods (games) that can't work as a result of your principals, so you'd rather just steal the game and make everyone else pay for it. This works when you're the only one stealing, but when EVERYONE steals it, it's called communism. I was around these forums when you read <i>Atlas Shrugged</i> and got a big old stiffy for liberarianism and Ron Paul (although now that you're voting for Obama I guess it was mostly just a stiffy for Ron Paul); it should be pretty clear to you when you think about it a bit that stealing PC games while others pay for them and expecting companies to go on making PC games forever like that is just the same as feeding off of John Galt and Hank Rearden.
Point number four doesn't make any sense to me because you never get around to explaining what the collusion is designed to do. Are they trying to drive up prices or something? If so, someone needs to break Valve's knees, because Valve's selling a ton of stuff on Steam for less than $50 and it gives away free updates all the time. So that won't really drive up prices. If they're colluding to stick DRM into every single game, well, there are tons of games with little to no DRM, including some gigantic titles like <i>Oblivion</i> and <i>Sins of a Solar Empire</i>. So you'd have to explain what the collusion is before I can really respond.
Fifth, you said game companies don't care about getting rid of DRM. This is probably true insofar as most companies are using whatever level of DRM they're most comfortable with (or, rather, most companies get to use whatever their publisher wants), but I think you'd agree that every company would rather ship their game without any DRM at all. I mean it's not like they enjoy putting that stuff on the disc. That takes time and money They just do it to stop pirates, right? So reallym they <i>would</i> love to get rid of DRM because that would mean they don't have to worry about piracy.
Finally, #6: DRM is one of the number one complaints that paying customers have. You don't mention any other number one complaints but I'll assume it's one of the most important number one complaints. It might even be the number two or number one number one complaint. I'll grant you that, but frankly if they're paying customers they obviously don't care that much. If DRM was such a deal breaker they wouldn't be buying the software.* Also, there are plenty of people (like me) who don't care about DRM at all as long as it works fine and is no more restrictive than, say, Microsoft Windows XP.
*See: free market capitalism, the kind Ron Paul likes!
<!--quoteo(post=1691005:date=Oct 21 2008, 09:18 PM:name=TychoCelchuuu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TychoCelchuuu @ Oct 21 2008, 09:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1691005"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->*See: free market capitalism, the kind Ron Paul likes!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ow.
To be fair, we've regulated and deregulated the economy to such a point that all the rules have changed. Jumping to pure free economy would result in a huge meltdown for a while. Sure it might come back better, but there's some serious problems with not having a solid stable economy for a few years and waiting for it to work itself out.
Sorry, my stupid off-topic off-topic rant.
Anyways, I guess we should all make games for free and never pay for them. Well, donations could work I guess. We should also do the same with the music industry! Yay!
There's also another interesting issue. The current system of DRMs are pretty weak and very intrusive. Basically, the cost doesn't match the benefit. We can crack most DRMs extremely quickly, but allowing the DRM to work requires rootkits and potentially internet connections. There was some talk of a system where the program would call a central sever every couple of minutes. Ew. Since I'm not a programming expert, I'm not sure what the solution is. However, the majority of the DRMs, in my opinion, tend to be disproportionate. I still buy games with DRMs, but it's something to consider.
Maybe in your view current DRM is very weak and very intrusive, but from my view it's somewhat weak and very unintrusitve. None of the DRM on my computer has every annoyed me, and it's not like this stuff doesn't do anything: I have a roomate who wants to pirate Far Cry 2 right now, but he can't because there's no crack. He might end up buying it off of Steam tomorrow if it's not cracked soon, and there are plenty of people who went out and bought it in the retail store today because there's no crack. Day 1 piracy is one of the biggest problems, and it's in this area that DRM is often effective.
<!--quoteo(post=1690830:date=Oct 19 2008, 10:29 PM:name=DOOManiac)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DOOManiac @ Oct 19 2008, 10:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1690830"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->DRM aside, I hear it's a bad port w/ an absolutely terrible control scheme.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
LikuI, am the Somberlain.Join Date: 2003-01-10Member: 12128Members
<!--quoteo(post=1691018:date=Oct 21 2008, 04:43 PM:name=TychoCelchuuu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TychoCelchuuu @ Oct 21 2008, 04:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1691018"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->None of the DRM on my computer has every annoyed me,<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm glad you speak for everyone, because there's plenty of cases of SecuROM crashing Explorer if anything is put into the drive. Hell, my whole Sims 2 game got f*cked up buy one of the later SecuROM-loaded expansions.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Uh, okay. If you don't like it you don't have to buy any games. Nobody forces you into any of this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I sure won't buy them, I'll bootleg those games instead.
<!--quoteo(post=1690912:date=Oct 20 2008, 03:38 PM:name=TychoCelchuuu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TychoCelchuuu @ Oct 20 2008, 03:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1690912"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And the game isn't really your own ######. You're actually buying a license to use the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm pretty sure no one goes into their local electronics store with the mindset of "What game license should I buy today?" Because it's bullsh*t, along with the EULA that no one reads.
QuaunautThe longest seven days in history...Join Date: 2003-03-21Member: 14759Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
edited October 2008
<!--quoteo(post=1691005:date=Oct 21 2008, 02:18 PM:name=TychoCelchuuu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TychoCelchuuu @ Oct 21 2008, 02:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1691005"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You raise some interesting points:
<b>Point 1</b>: People pirate games because they want to own the software, not a license to use the software <b> Point 2</b>: I am a complete corporate shill
<b>Point 3</b>: You are more of a capitalist than anyone around here
<b>Point 4</b>: Game companies are colluding to do something
<b>Point 5</b>: Game companies don't care about getting rid of DRM
<b>Point 6</b>: DRM is one of the paying customer's number one complaints
For the first point (people pirate games because license agreements are dumb), I would ask you to provide some examples. I for one have never heard of anybody pirating a game because they don't like the EULA, and if that were the case, it would be a little hypocritical unless they pirated every single piece of software they own except for the Open Source stuff, because everything's got an EULA. Not only have I never heard anyone say they do that, this is also the first time I've even heard of anyone saying that OTHER people pirate for that reason. If you can substantiate the claim more, I'll address it more, but I think I would be pretty justified in dismissing it as it applies to video games. For Open Source Software like OpenOffice.org vs MSWord, it might make more sense, but with games I doubt anyone cares about the EULA, seeing as gamers are running Windows which itself has a license agreement.
I'll address point #2 and point #3 concurrently. First, if point 2 (I'm a shill) is true, point 3 (you're more of a capitalist) is wrong because I'd be getting paid for talking on behalf of a corporation whereas you're advocating stealing everything that you want without paying for it. I think it's clear which side of that argument is more capitalist. Secondly, I'm not a corporate shill, because my two points are thus: there is DRM, and it doesn't annoy me, and I think everyone should get over it, but if you CAN'T get over it, don't buy it. That's totally capitalist. I want to let the market work it out. You, on the other hand, want it both ways: you want your principles, but you also want the goods (games) that can't work as a result of your principals, so you'd rather just steal the game and make everyone else pay for it. This works when you're the only one stealing, but when EVERYONE steals it, it's called communism. I was around these forums when you read <i>Atlas Shrugged</i> and got a big old stiffy for liberarianism and Ron Paul (although now that you're voting for Obama I guess it was mostly just a stiffy for Ron Paul); it should be pretty clear to you when you think about it a bit that stealing PC games while others pay for them and expecting companies to go on making PC games forever like that is just the same as feeding off of John Galt and Hank Rearden.
Point number four doesn't make any sense to me because you never get around to explaining what the collusion is designed to do. Are they trying to drive up prices or something? If so, someone needs to break Valve's knees, because Valve's selling a ton of stuff on Steam for less than $50 and it gives away free updates all the time. So that won't really drive up prices. If they're colluding to stick DRM into every single game, well, there are tons of games with little to no DRM, including some gigantic titles like <i>Oblivion</i> and <i>Sins of a Solar Empire</i>. So you'd have to explain what the collusion is before I can really respond.
Fifth, you said game companies don't care about getting rid of DRM. This is probably true insofar as most companies are using whatever level of DRM they're most comfortable with (or, rather, most companies get to use whatever their publisher wants), but I think you'd agree that every company would rather ship their game without any DRM at all. I mean it's not like they enjoy putting that stuff on the disc. That takes time and money They just do it to stop pirates, right? So reallym they <i>would</i> love to get rid of DRM because that would mean they don't have to worry about piracy.
Finally, #6: DRM is one of the number one complaints that paying customers have. You don't mention any other number one complaints but I'll assume it's one of the most important number one complaints. It might even be the number two or number one number one complaint. I'll grant you that, but frankly if they're paying customers they obviously don't care that much. If DRM was such a deal breaker they wouldn't be buying the software.* Also, there are plenty of people (like me) who don't care about DRM at all as long as it works fine and is no more restrictive than, say, Microsoft Windows XP.
*See: free market capitalism, the kind Ron Paul likes!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like how you just love to categorize in ways that make no bit of sense. No use arguing with someone who doesn't even understand the base level of the argument, and is willing to generalize so heavily just to get a point across. Have fun.
Edit: Reading past the first 2 points: Not to mention vagrantly <i>wrong</i>.
Comments
I would fully support this option. Heck, make it 6 months and I would still be ok with it. All they have to do is guarantee they will be releasing a patch that removes the DRM *fully* and I would be all over the game <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
I guess the only problem with this is, is when you install in 5 years later it will have the DRM still (off the disc), which could run into issues, but I think some good solution could be found.
Lots of games still have them. BF2 uses CD Keys, Company of Heroes does if you don't buy it on Steam, Mass Effect has one, etc. I'd have more examples but I barely ever buy games that aren't on Steam any more.
Because people don't like being told what they can and can't do with their own ######.
What does DRM not let you do aside from install and uninstall it 12 times in a row without taking 5 minutes to reactivate it? And the game isn't really your own ######. You're actually buying a license to use the game.
It'd be nice not to have to jump through hoops to install or uninstall. I shouldn't have to call EA to tell them "why" I'm installing it for a 4th time. It's also lovely that it installs that SecuROM bull###### under my nose as is an utter ###### to get rid of.
Which is an exercise in bull######, I think we can all agree.
Uh, okay. If you don't like it you don't have to buy any games. Nobody forces you into any of this.
Whoever decided that software should be different and special and you're really only buying a license to use it is retarded. Buying the right to use it but not own it is basically saying everyone is leasing their games from the developer, again, retarded. I bought my copy of the game and can(/should) do whatever I please with it. I can use it's disc as a coaster, put different sounds in for the software to use, use it's sounds for other stuff on my system, make plugins for it... As long as it doesn't hurt the manufacturer it doesn't really make any difference what I do with stuff I've purchased.
I'll be sure to get on the phone with all the lawyers behind the EULA and tell them they're "retarded," but they'll probably say that the point of the EULA is exactly what your problem with it is: to make it so that software is NOT exactly like a Monopoly board. You might not <i>agree</i> that that should be the case, but that's because of a lot of different reasons that are subjective rather than objective. Like I said, if you don't like the way software licenses work, you can always not purchase them. The thing is, you're perfectly free to make your own software and sell the actual program, not a license to use it.
I understand you're playing devil's advocate here Tycho, but more than once here you've stepped over the line from "Well, I could understand their position" to "Complete Corporate Shill". I'm as much if not moreso of a capitalist than anybody here, but when there is mass collusion between so many game companies, and getting rid of DRM seems to be the last thing on their mind, yet its one of their customer's(PAYING CUSTOMERS) number 1 complaints, then we have something wrong.
I understand you're playing devil's advocate here Tycho, but more than once here you've stepped over the line from "Well, I could understand their position" to "Complete Corporate Shill". I'm as much if not moreso of a capitalist than anybody here, but when there is mass collusion between so many game companies, and getting rid of DRM seems to be the last thing on their mind, yet its one of their customer's(PAYING CUSTOMERS) number 1 complaints, then we have something wrong.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You raise some interesting points:
<b>Point 1</b>: People pirate games because they want to own the software, not a license to use the software
<b>
Point 2</b>: I am a complete corporate shill
<b>Point 3</b>: You are more of a capitalist than anyone around here
<b>Point 4</b>: Game companies are colluding to do something
<b>Point 5</b>: Game companies don't care about getting rid of DRM
<b>Point 6</b>: DRM is one of the paying customer's number one complaints
For the first point (people pirate games because license agreements are dumb), I would ask you to provide some examples. I for one have never heard of anybody pirating a game because they don't like the EULA, and if that were the case, it would be a little hypocritical unless they pirated every single piece of software they own except for the Open Source stuff, because everything's got an EULA. Not only have I never heard anyone say they do that, this is also the first time I've even heard of anyone saying that OTHER people pirate for that reason. If you can substantiate the claim more, I'll address it more, but I think I would be pretty justified in dismissing it as it applies to video games. For Open Source Software like OpenOffice.org vs MSWord, it might make more sense, but with games I doubt anyone cares about the EULA, seeing as gamers are running Windows which itself has a license agreement.
I'll address point #2 and point #3 concurrently. First, if point 2 (I'm a shill) is true, point 3 (you're more of a capitalist) is wrong because I'd be getting paid for talking on behalf of a corporation whereas you're advocating stealing everything that you want without paying for it. I think it's clear which side of that argument is more capitalist. Secondly, I'm not a corporate shill, because my two points are thus: there is DRM, and it doesn't annoy me, and I think everyone should get over it, but if you CAN'T get over it, don't buy it. That's totally capitalist. I want to let the market work it out. You, on the other hand, want it both ways: you want your principles, but you also want the goods (games) that can't work as a result of your principals, so you'd rather just steal the game and make everyone else pay for it. This works when you're the only one stealing, but when EVERYONE steals it, it's called communism. I was around these forums when you read <i>Atlas Shrugged</i> and got a big old stiffy for liberarianism and Ron Paul (although now that you're voting for Obama I guess it was mostly just a stiffy for Ron Paul); it should be pretty clear to you when you think about it a bit that stealing PC games while others pay for them and expecting companies to go on making PC games forever like that is just the same as feeding off of John Galt and Hank Rearden.
Point number four doesn't make any sense to me because you never get around to explaining what the collusion is designed to do. Are they trying to drive up prices or something? If so, someone needs to break Valve's knees, because Valve's selling a ton of stuff on Steam for less than $50 and it gives away free updates all the time. So that won't really drive up prices. If they're colluding to stick DRM into every single game, well, there are tons of games with little to no DRM, including some gigantic titles like <i>Oblivion</i> and <i>Sins of a Solar Empire</i>. So you'd have to explain what the collusion is before I can really respond.
Fifth, you said game companies don't care about getting rid of DRM. This is probably true insofar as most companies are using whatever level of DRM they're most comfortable with (or, rather, most companies get to use whatever their publisher wants), but I think you'd agree that every company would rather ship their game without any DRM at all. I mean it's not like they enjoy putting that stuff on the disc. That takes time and money They just do it to stop pirates, right? So reallym they <i>would</i> love to get rid of DRM because that would mean they don't have to worry about piracy.
Finally, #6: DRM is one of the number one complaints that paying customers have. You don't mention any other number one complaints but I'll assume it's one of the most important number one complaints. It might even be the number two or number one number one complaint. I'll grant you that, but frankly if they're paying customers they obviously don't care that much. If DRM was such a deal breaker they wouldn't be buying the software.* Also, there are plenty of people (like me) who don't care about DRM at all as long as it works fine and is no more restrictive than, say, Microsoft Windows XP.
*See: free market capitalism, the kind Ron Paul likes!
ow.
To be fair, we've regulated and deregulated the economy to such a point that all the rules have changed. Jumping to pure free economy would result in a huge meltdown for a while. Sure it might come back better, but there's some serious problems with not having a solid stable economy for a few years and waiting for it to work itself out.
Sorry, my stupid off-topic off-topic rant.
Anyways, I guess we should all make games for free and never pay for them. Well, donations could work I guess. We should also do the same with the music industry! Yay!
There's also another interesting issue. The current system of DRMs are pretty weak and very intrusive. Basically, the cost doesn't match the benefit. We can crack most DRMs extremely quickly, but allowing the DRM to work requires rootkits and potentially internet connections. There was some talk of a system where the program would call a central sever every couple of minutes. Ew. Since I'm not a programming expert, I'm not sure what the solution is. However, the majority of the DRMs, in my opinion, tend to be disproportionate. I still buy games with DRMs, but it's something to consider.
Source?
I'm glad you speak for everyone, because there's plenty of cases of SecuROM crashing Explorer if anything is put into the drive. Hell, my whole Sims 2 game got f*cked up buy one of the later SecuROM-loaded expansions.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Uh, okay. If you don't like it you don't have to buy any games. Nobody forces you into any of this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I sure won't buy them, I'll bootleg those games instead.
<!--quoteo(post=1690912:date=Oct 20 2008, 03:38 PM:name=TychoCelchuuu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TychoCelchuuu @ Oct 20 2008, 03:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1690912"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And the game isn't really your own ######. You're actually buying a license to use the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm pretty sure no one goes into their local electronics store with the mindset of "What game license should I buy today?" Because it's bullsh*t, along with the EULA that no one reads.
<b>Point 1</b>: People pirate games because they want to own the software, not a license to use the software
<b>
Point 2</b>: I am a complete corporate shill
<b>Point 3</b>: You are more of a capitalist than anyone around here
<b>Point 4</b>: Game companies are colluding to do something
<b>Point 5</b>: Game companies don't care about getting rid of DRM
<b>Point 6</b>: DRM is one of the paying customer's number one complaints
For the first point (people pirate games because license agreements are dumb), I would ask you to provide some examples. I for one have never heard of anybody pirating a game because they don't like the EULA, and if that were the case, it would be a little hypocritical unless they pirated every single piece of software they own except for the Open Source stuff, because everything's got an EULA. Not only have I never heard anyone say they do that, this is also the first time I've even heard of anyone saying that OTHER people pirate for that reason. If you can substantiate the claim more, I'll address it more, but I think I would be pretty justified in dismissing it as it applies to video games. For Open Source Software like OpenOffice.org vs MSWord, it might make more sense, but with games I doubt anyone cares about the EULA, seeing as gamers are running Windows which itself has a license agreement.
I'll address point #2 and point #3 concurrently. First, if point 2 (I'm a shill) is true, point 3 (you're more of a capitalist) is wrong because I'd be getting paid for talking on behalf of a corporation whereas you're advocating stealing everything that you want without paying for it. I think it's clear which side of that argument is more capitalist. Secondly, I'm not a corporate shill, because my two points are thus: there is DRM, and it doesn't annoy me, and I think everyone should get over it, but if you CAN'T get over it, don't buy it. That's totally capitalist. I want to let the market work it out. You, on the other hand, want it both ways: you want your principles, but you also want the goods (games) that can't work as a result of your principals, so you'd rather just steal the game and make everyone else pay for it. This works when you're the only one stealing, but when EVERYONE steals it, it's called communism. I was around these forums when you read <i>Atlas Shrugged</i> and got a big old stiffy for liberarianism and Ron Paul (although now that you're voting for Obama I guess it was mostly just a stiffy for Ron Paul); it should be pretty clear to you when you think about it a bit that stealing PC games while others pay for them and expecting companies to go on making PC games forever like that is just the same as feeding off of John Galt and Hank Rearden.
Point number four doesn't make any sense to me because you never get around to explaining what the collusion is designed to do. Are they trying to drive up prices or something? If so, someone needs to break Valve's knees, because Valve's selling a ton of stuff on Steam for less than $50 and it gives away free updates all the time. So that won't really drive up prices. If they're colluding to stick DRM into every single game, well, there are tons of games with little to no DRM, including some gigantic titles like <i>Oblivion</i> and <i>Sins of a Solar Empire</i>. So you'd have to explain what the collusion is before I can really respond.
Fifth, you said game companies don't care about getting rid of DRM. This is probably true insofar as most companies are using whatever level of DRM they're most comfortable with (or, rather, most companies get to use whatever their publisher wants), but I think you'd agree that every company would rather ship their game without any DRM at all. I mean it's not like they enjoy putting that stuff on the disc. That takes time and money They just do it to stop pirates, right? So reallym they <i>would</i> love to get rid of DRM because that would mean they don't have to worry about piracy.
Finally, #6: DRM is one of the number one complaints that paying customers have. You don't mention any other number one complaints but I'll assume it's one of the most important number one complaints. It might even be the number two or number one number one complaint. I'll grant you that, but frankly if they're paying customers they obviously don't care that much. If DRM was such a deal breaker they wouldn't be buying the software.* Also, there are plenty of people (like me) who don't care about DRM at all as long as it works fine and is no more restrictive than, say, Microsoft Windows XP.
*See: free market capitalism, the kind Ron Paul likes!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like how you just love to categorize in ways that make no bit of sense. No use arguing with someone who doesn't even understand the base level of the argument, and is willing to generalize so heavily just to get a point across. Have fun.
Edit: Reading past the first 2 points: Not to mention vagrantly <i>wrong</i>.