3rd Party Mods on Steam
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Join Date: 2007-09-04 Member: 62167Members
Join Date: 2007-09-04 Member: 62167Members
in Off-Topic
<div class="IPBDescription">But no NS...</div>I'd say this is HUGE news for the HL2 community: <a href="http://planethalflife.gamespy.com/fullstory.php?id=154043" target="_blank">http://planethalflife.gamespy.com/fullstory.php?id=154043</a>
Valve appears to be lending their own bandwidth to host and integrate 3rd party mods into the Steam platform. People may remember that NS was back in the day a forerunner for a project like this, but in the end it didn't make business sense for Valve to have their bandwidth eaten with no financial return.
I wonder why they changed their mind? Too bad it doesn't look like NS, or indeed any HL1 mod, is included.
Valve appears to be lending their own bandwidth to host and integrate 3rd party mods into the Steam platform. People may remember that NS was back in the day a forerunner for a project like this, but in the end it didn't make business sense for Valve to have their bandwidth eaten with no financial return.
I wonder why they changed their mind? Too bad it doesn't look like NS, or indeed any HL1 mod, is included.
Comments
ns is still a prime candidate for this, and there was even a thread regarding this very subject recently where flayra and max both discussed the idea and said that they were in talks with valve about this, and puzl even volunteered to do the work to make it happen.
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=104663&hl=" target="_blank">link</a>
flayra had said that at one point valve had said "lets do it" but not much has happened since them that we know about.
Insurgency, Synergy, and ZPS I can see, but the others are coming out of nowhere.
Why not items like Dysopia? Oh wait, no one plays that either anymore. Gotta wait for v1.2 to come out.
Also, why did they remove the ability to see number of players playing mods?
Quite a few of the first ZP playtesters were from these forums. But I wouldn't say it was spawned from here. I think... o_O
I thought it started here too. My memory is pretty fuzzy but I definitely had that impression.
As did I.
I definitely know a lot of us playtested it.
It did more or less start here. Prior to the post here looking for testers they had a testing team of 3, a development team of 2, no form of dedicated testing server and a website on geocities (or something like that)
I find the new ZP team to be somewhat.. disappointing though. They list two "Mod Co-founders" on the team page that didn't even join the zp forums or the team until after the first HL release, and the original coder (one of the first 2 on the team) isn't even listed as helping to found the mod, he's just a generic 'contributor'
that would be like calling Flayra, who singlehandedly coded the first release of NS, a mere 'contributor'
admittedly, I haven't played the Source version, and this really has nothing to do with the quality of the mod, its just sad to see them not giving credit where its due.
Well, probably they feel justified that since they've taken the mod to a whole new system they should be the new head people who've kept it going.
Admittedly, it's a pretty solid mod now on Source, although it's very much "do you know this map" dependent. I also am in pain from some of the ways they deal with rendering. One of my weaker computers lagged every time you opened a door. Then again, I'm not a mod coder, so maybe it's just a Source thing.
I dunno, that really annoyed me too. I use this site now, but am unsure of how accurate it is: <a href="http://www.looki.de/esport/gameserver_mod.html?game=HL2" target="_blank">http://www.looki.de/esport/gameserver_mod.html?game=HL2</a>
I can at least see why dystopia wasn't added (not popular) but I cannot see Age of Chiv over PvKII -- that makes no sense to me. Synergy seemed like an odd ball choice too, I would rather have seen Empires.
Dystopia though... I cannot understand why that mod is not more popular. It was one of the first mods released for Source and is in my opinion still the most highly polished of them, with excellent gameplay, balance and graphics. I just don't know why more people don't play it?
Oh yeah, and does anybody know what ever happened to Hull-Breach..?
And what about Nuclear Dawn? That one seemed to have potential, but at least it still looks like it is in development as opposed to Hull Breach.
Ah well, time to go back to playing TF2? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
Dystopia though... I cannot understand why that mod is not more popular. It was one of the first mods released for Source and is in my opinion still the most highly polished of them, with excellent gameplay, balance and graphics. I just don't know why more people don't play it?
Oh yeah, and does anybody know what ever happened to Hull-Breach..?
And what about Nuclear Dawn? That one seemed to have potential, but at least it still looks like it is in development as opposed to Hull Breach.
Ah well, time to go back to playing TF2? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I know the answers to all of those questions.
1. Imo yes, but it relies on good players.
2. It's polished but it's not balanced (classes are, maps aren't) and the gameplay is repetitive (again this is down to the map spawnpoints).
3. Yes, but I can't say. It's still being worked on, though.
4. It is still being worked on, just very slowly and by only 3 people. The game info is very out of date, though.
That makes me curious to actually analyze it in my endless quest for what makes a game fun...
What things do you think they did right, why isn't it fun, what could they have done to make it more fun?
Actually when I said they did everything right except make it fun, I should have also mentioned I don't like how they did cyberpunk. When I think "cyberpunk" I don't think "two nearly identical teams rush at each other through corridors firing miniguns at each other."
I find the new ZP team to be somewhat.. disappointing though. They list two "Mod Co-founders" on the team page that didn't even join the zp forums or the team until after the first HL release, and the original coder (one of the first 2 on the team) isn't even listed as helping to found the mod, he's just a generic 'contributor'
that would be like calling Flayra, who singlehandedly coded the first release of NS, a mere 'contributor'
admittedly, I haven't played the Source version, and this really has nothing to do with the quality of the mod, its just sad to see them not giving credit where its due.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yep, most of the zp team started from the NS Customization forum
Yeah, ZP:S is pretty much trash. Slow and boring. I have no clue how people play that.
I could harp on Dystopia, but Crispy pretty much covered it all. I would rather nail my ###### to the wall than try to actually play for the objectives in a public server of Dys.
As for the map design, I'd agree with Tycho. When the linear style of the maps meet with the inherent stalemate inducing gameplay the two combine to create frustration and boredom. However, I would disagree with Tycho about the weapons. I think it's all how you play. Every class had a gun that required some form of skill and if mastered the player could easily top the kill list. For the light class it was the sniper rifle and boltgun, for medium it was the semi-automatic rifle, and for the heavy it was the ion cannon. Each of these weapons required twitch skill and good aim. If you chose the 'spammy' weapon every time you can't really complain about how the bullets didn't do any damage. If anything, it's cool that the dev's included weapons of every type (spam / pinpont accurate / a mix inbetween) for every class
What things do you think they did right, why isn't it fun, what could they have done to make it more fun?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->From a review I wrote about Dystopia:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Really the most disappointing bit about Dystopia is that the depth provided by the upgrades and cyberspace hasn't been translated into enthralling two-way map battles that are easy to pick up and provide long-lasting playability. Almost all of the maps stick a bit too closely to the attacker vs. defender scenario resulting in a sense of deja vu as you travel the same linear paths to fight the same repetitive battles over the same map locations. A couple of levels have made an effort to break away from this style with multiple objectives that must all be held to win the round, but unfortunately these maps currently lack a cohesive and easily navigable layout.
Another let down is just how confusing the mod can be to newcomers. Much to the relief of newbies and veteran players alike, the team behind the mod have thankfully bundled in a tutorial level (available from the menu screen) that teaches you the basics of this crucial element of the game. But there are much more fundamental issues that only serve to annoy, irritate and disorientate the initiate. The fact that the two teams will both spawn in the same room at different points in the round can really throw you off.
Oh, and if this handover happens while you're in the spawn room, not only will members of the enemy team start spawning around you, but the turrets in the room that previously protected you from the evil act of spawncamping will lock its sights on you because their ownership has changed hands!
If that wasn't confusing enough, the same will happen again but in reverse at the end of the round when the teams get swapped and the defenders become the attackers. So this time when you respawn you'll need to take a left turn instead of a right or you'll end up trying to figure out why the door you came through only moments ago is now mysteriously locked.
...
Pros:
- 'Cyberspace' feature unique and well worked
- Very accomplished visual style and setting
- Well balanced classes, weapons and upgrade system
- Plenty of scope for individual customisation and advanced teamplay
Cons:
- Unintuitive level design
- Gameplay can get repetitive (due largely to linear level design)
- Long respawn times (up to 25 seconds)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->It's worth noting that I have a lot of praise for the mod in the rest of the review, but the way the maps are designed and the gameplay worked into the maps is what really pulls the mod down. The maps look good and cyberspace often works well, but the chokepoints in most maps aren't fun the second or the third time round because they play out more or less identically. Plus map navigation is very tough for newbies.
Also bear in mind this is for version 1 and I haven't played it massively since then.
But cyberspace was certainly an acquired taste. The combat was floaty. I developed a liking for it, but I saw a lot of players who (perhaps grudgingly) entered cyberspace and made complete asses of themselves. They simply couldn't get a hang of it at all. I think a lot of players shunned cyberspace for this reason, and I wouldn't want to force people like that to suffer through it. It wouldn't be fun for them. And they were hardly any help.
Then there was the fun of enemies attacking your hackers (clarification: in meatspace). If the attacking team's hacker(s) were critical to their success, the enemy team could gain a decisive advantage simply by disrupting them. A hacker is helpless, and easy prey for an enemy infiltrator. So somebody (from the team that was supposed to be attacking) would have to stand guard over the hackers. This didn't take into account lights doing suicide runs with emp grenades, which would disrupt the enemy hackers very handily and which could usually not be stopped by the defenders (if there even were any).
In summary, I think cyberspace was at least part of the issue. It was a novel idea, and the integration of cyberspace and meatspace gameplay into one unit was great, but it wasn't popular enough, and probably not easy enough to pick up. Easily the most complex part of the game, which was an issue for something so essential.
The weakness was that it was vital in many maps to use cyberspace, and when you consider that CS is a physical part of a level that many players do not know exist, that's an issue. But the thing is you OWN CS if your hackers outnumber the other team's. I have played as that lone hacker against 2 or more very good enemy hackers and it's not fun in the slightest.
The only improvements they could make with this in mind would be to change the maps so that, instead of being an absolute neccessity, decking gives improved or denied entropy to the attacking team depending on who controls cyberspace. I.e. decking can open up a 2nd or 3rd route instead of opening up the only route for progression in a level. Think more Deus Ex, and give teams strategic options on how they customise their team members and which routes they attack.
Also there were a few maps where the uplinks in the spawnpoints were not safe, so you could be attacked within cyberspace and within meatspace, but your meatspace body had no way of looking out for enemies while in CS. There's an argument that your team should protect you, but it only takes 1 cloaker/cold suit to get past the automated defences and kill anywhere between 1 and 3 helpless hackers. Fine for competitive play but on pubs it's not really strong design.
Again its the same with DoD, I love DoD 1.3 for the HL engine but DoD:S I honestly cant stand because its basically CS. However I still enjoy a crazy game of CSS on a surf or aim map but i wont play normal CSS due to the fact that it gets boring very quickly. To be honest I think that is the downfall of current mods of today (looking at HL2 mods that is) theres no "epic" factors to them, the only thing thats really going for them is shiney models and shiney maps, it looks nice but just doesnt keep the masses of people playing it constantly.
I cant stand playing a game where my actions are misrepresented on screen, its the biggest way to lose emmersion. if I click my mouse, i expect to fire my gun, not fire a water pistol, or jerk my gun like a spaz, or fire it half a second later.
They designed the game extremely poorly in the initial stages, and by the time they corrected any of the plethora of design errors they had lost the interest of the player community.
In the first versions of the game, the weapons were all extremely poor, non responsive, and not very fun to use. They had awkward recoil and spray patterns, they imposed arbitrary and often times crippling restrictions on the players using them, and none of them were incredibly creative. The rocket launcher was just bad. The movement was also very non responsive and difficult to manage, the game didn't allow for a fraction of the motion control compared to HL2 DM or NS. You might recall how incredibly unintuitive and difficult it was to ledge grab, and it always seemed like the character would ledge grab when you didn't want him to, very frustrating. Many many players were put off by the poor basic interface.
Cyberspace was very very poorly executed in the game early on. It was an unnecessary side tracking from the real gameplay. Interestingly enough, it was a very cool game mechanic, and not because of the changing physics, more than anything just because, in theory, your hacking players and your playing players need to be on communication and play very parrel to each other to achieve success. But hacking time combat just BLEW, it was infinitely worse than the weapon and movement systems that existed in the standard game. Hacking was unintuitive, and very poorly documented to new players. The hacking activity systems were so mind numbingly simple and poorly expounded, there was no difficulty or intelligence to it, and it was incredibly unintuitive, the little lock icon and the hacking traps that were available, it was just bad.
Dystopia was either a game that surrounded themselfs with yes men in betatesting, or they just didn't think at all about what was actually happening with the gameplay of that project. I'd call that mod "very unprofessional", but realistically, I don't really expect professionalism from mod teams... more accurately, they just failed to bring to the table what a mod team really needs to to be a success, that that is a really solid game play concept.
I personally think the biggest weaknesses in Dystopia is 1) you play the map, not the game, so you have to learn each and every map to be useful and 2) team coordination is king, which doesn't always happen. Also, I could rant about poor map designs, but that kinda falls into complain 1.