<!--QuoteBegin-Psyke+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Psyke)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It is the community coming up with stuff to do that makes it fun...If a game is like this, <b>the game is not enabling the fun.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I have to disagree. One of the main draws of EVE is the "do whatever you want" mentality, as well as the complete control the community has over the direction of the game. If the game were more streamlined and less community focused, it wouldn't be the same.
EVE is a different beast that has to be judged under a different microscope than all other games. You would be hard pressed to find a game similar to EVE. Some people just have fun warping to a galaxy thirteen warps away and spending the trip bull######ting with their buddies. <i>Instant gratification isn't a necessary requirement for enjoyment.</i> Everyone seems to put EVE down for the amount of time it takes to play or do <i>anything</i>, <b>but that same aspect you target for degradation is the very aspect that draws the majority of EVE's audience into play.</b>
Simply put, EVE is not for everyone. In fact, EVE is hardly for anyone. It's understandable that the great majority of people who play it walk away with a sour taste in their mouth. However, they walked away not because of bugs, glitches, exploits or broken game mechanics, they walked away from the game because of specific design choices that <i>attract</i> thousands of players a day.
EVE is a die-hard, well polished space simulator. People like it for that. A lot more people dislike it for that.
NeonSpyder"Das est NTLDR?"Join Date: 2003-07-03Member: 17913Members
<!--quoteo(post=1687440:date=Sep 5 2008, 07:58 AM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(lolfighter @ Sep 5 2008, 07:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1687440"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's a niche game for spreadsheet aficionados, I think that's a compromise we can all agree with.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, agreed.
<!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Not that there's anything wrong with that.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Small fleet combat/pirating/group activities are what makes EvE fun it's just that most people don't have the patience necessary to wait the 1-2 months required before you can really get into the higher level activites (this time is used to train skills and get enough money to become self sufficient.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> So why not just start players at that point so they don't have to trudge through your tedious crap for 2 months before they get to the good stuff?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A game that requires patience before you can have fun also does not have good gameplay.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Though I wouldn't necessarily agree with this statement.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Unforgotten Realms...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> ... was good for the first 2 or so episodes.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's a niche game for spreadsheet aficionados, I think that's a compromise we can all agree with.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Isn't that the definition of MMORPG?
<!--quoteo(post=1687486:date=Sep 5 2008, 08:50 PM:name=SkulkBait)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SkulkBait @ Sep 5 2008, 08:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1687486"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Isn't that the definition of MMORPG?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> noo, you have it wrong. MMORPGs are for people with addictive personalities! Only min/maxers analyze the stats!
/e crawls back to <a href="http://www.leulier.com/" target="_blank">http://www.leulier.com/</a>
remiremedy [blu.knight]Join Date: 2003-11-18Member: 23112Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester
<!--quoteo(post=1687490:date=Sep 5 2008, 10:32 PM:name=eediot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(eediot @ Sep 5 2008, 10:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1687490"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Then where's the carrot on a stick, which is the single best way of securing continued subscriptions from the majority of your player base?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Bad gameplay ^
remiremedy [blu.knight]Join Date: 2003-11-18Member: 23112Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester
edited September 2008
<!--quoteo(post=1687492:date=Sep 5 2008, 10:45 PM:name=eediot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(eediot @ Sep 5 2008, 10:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1687492"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What do you mean by that?
MMORPGs aren't designed to be fun, they're designed to be addictive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Would make good management ^
<!--quoteo(post=1687486:date=Sep 5 2008, 08:50 PM:name=SkulkBait)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SkulkBait @ Sep 5 2008, 08:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1687486"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So why not just start players at that point so they don't have to trudge through your tedious crap for 2 months before they get to the good stuff?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1687371:date=Sep 4 2008, 12:41 PM:name=Xyth)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Xyth @ Sep 4 2008, 12:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1687371"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, at the early levels EvE is still tons of fun. Infact I might say some of the best times I had was within the first week of the game. Getting my first real frigate (condor ftw), joining my first player corp (free stuff!), getting my first 1 on 1 pvp kill...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I just want to say I understand where Xyth is coming from and the creator of that video.
I've played Eve off and on for a couple of years.
I used to play YEARS ago and had a Blackbird with howitzers (speaking about mismatched huh? lol) Then I came back again and am now sporting a Caracal. Not sure if I upped, I should reactivite my account just to get all the new updates and see how my character skill training is.
YES IF YOU DEACTIVITE, YOUR SKILL STILL TRAINS! Good way to train a 85729735025day skill.
Yes the games is sometimes frustration, but at the same time, yes it does also have it's fun aspect.
Essentially, the big issue most people have with eve is the ui and the level of delayed reward.
The problems are that the game covers a huge amount of stuff. This is a product of the fact that it's, fundamentally, a sandbox game. Sure you can spend the whole time thinking about blowing up spaceships, conquering space, or just griefing everyone in low sec. But, If that doesn't appeal to you can do production, logistics, just ###### the market for good deals. The problem is that doing each of those things well requires that you develop skills, contacts, and know-how to do it well. Keep in mind, all of the above things are player driven. This leads to a level of complexity which requires a UI which is complex. I personally think that the UI is actually quite stripped down for what it actually does, and covers. some of it is unintuitive but its lets you do almost anything.
The delayed reward thing is part and parcel to mmos, but eve takes this to a new level by simply having so much content. As an example, eve character is almost 3 years old. I am specialized in <b>3</b> ships (rook, falcon, kitsune). I can fly around half the ships in the game at all and in most of them would stand almost no chance in comparison to your average pilot who flies them. You would be able to outclass me in most ships in less than two weeks, except for some of the supporting skills. In my obviously based opinion The skill tree isn't the issue with this sort of thing It's figuring out the game.
EVE is unforgiving, harsh, and can be a terrible pain in the ass. For some of us that's the fun part.
I completely understand why you all don't enjoy it. That I no way means That I think It should change in any way to accommodate you. but I understand why the UI, harshness, and complexity of the game detract from the experience for most people. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
Ultimately it's impossible to say whether those of us who don't like Eve are a bunch of whining ninnies who can't play with the big boys, or whether those who like it are a bunch of masochists. It all depends on the perspective, I guess.
Comments
Okay.
<!--QuoteBegin-Psyke+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Psyke)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It is the community coming up with stuff to do that makes it fun...If a game is like this, <b>the game is not enabling the fun.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have to disagree. One of the main draws of EVE is the "do whatever you want" mentality, as well as the complete control the community has over the direction of the game. If the game were more streamlined and less community focused, it wouldn't be the same.
EVE is a different beast that has to be judged under a different microscope than all other games. You would be hard pressed to find a game similar to EVE. Some people just have fun warping to a galaxy thirteen warps away and spending the trip bull######ting with their buddies. <i>Instant gratification isn't a necessary requirement for enjoyment.</i> Everyone seems to put EVE down for the amount of time it takes to play or do <i>anything</i>, <b>but that same aspect you target for degradation is the very aspect that draws the majority of EVE's audience into play.</b>
Simply put, EVE is not for everyone. In fact, EVE is hardly for anyone. It's understandable that the great majority of people who play it walk away with a sour taste in their mouth. However, they walked away not because of bugs, glitches, exploits or broken game mechanics, they walked away from the game because of specific design choices that <i>attract</i> thousands of players a day.
EVE is a die-hard, well polished space simulator. People like it for that. A lot more people dislike it for that.
Yes, agreed.
<!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Not that there's anything wrong with that.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Small fleet combat/pirating/group activities are what makes EvE fun it's just that most people don't have the patience necessary to wait the 1-2 months required before you can really get into the higher level activites (this time is used to train skills and get enough money to become self sufficient.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So why not just start players at that point so they don't have to trudge through your tedious crap for 2 months before they get to the good stuff?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A game that requires patience before you can have fun also does not have good gameplay.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Though I wouldn't necessarily agree with this statement.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Unforgotten Realms...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
... was good for the first 2 or so episodes.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's a niche game for spreadsheet aficionados, I think that's a compromise we can all agree with.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Isn't that the definition of MMORPG?
noo, you have it wrong. MMORPGs are for people with addictive personalities! Only min/maxers analyze the stats!
/e crawls back to <a href="http://www.leulier.com/" target="_blank">http://www.leulier.com/</a>
Bad gameplay ^
MMORPGs aren't designed to be fun, they're designed to be addictive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Would make good management ^
<!--quoteo(post=1687371:date=Sep 4 2008, 12:41 PM:name=Xyth)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Xyth @ Sep 4 2008, 12:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1687371"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, at the early levels EvE is still tons of fun. Infact I might say some of the best times I had was within the first week of the game. Getting my first real frigate (condor ftw), joining my first player corp (free stuff!), getting my first 1 on 1 pvp kill...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've played Eve off and on for a couple of years.
I used to play YEARS ago and had a Blackbird with howitzers (speaking about mismatched huh? lol) Then I came back again and am now sporting a Caracal. Not sure if I upped, I should reactivite my account just to get all the new updates and see how my character skill training is.
YES IF YOU DEACTIVITE, YOUR SKILL STILL TRAINS! Good way to train a 85729735025day skill.
Yes the games is sometimes frustration, but at the same time, yes it does also have it's fun aspect.
Essentially, the big issue most people have with eve is the ui and the level of delayed reward.
The problems are that the game covers a huge amount of stuff. This is a product of the fact that it's, fundamentally, a sandbox game. Sure you can spend the whole time thinking about blowing up spaceships, conquering space, or just griefing everyone in low sec. But, If that doesn't appeal to you can do production, logistics, just ###### the market for good deals. The problem is that doing each of those things well requires that you develop skills, contacts, and know-how to do it well. Keep in mind, all of the above things are player driven. This leads to a level of complexity which requires a UI which is complex. I personally think that the UI is actually quite stripped down for what it actually does, and covers. some of it is unintuitive but its lets you do almost anything.
The delayed reward thing is part and parcel to mmos, but eve takes this to a new level by simply having so much content. As an example, eve character is almost 3 years old. I am specialized in <b>3</b> ships (rook, falcon, kitsune). I can fly around half the ships in the game at all and in most of them would stand almost no chance in comparison to your average pilot who flies them. You would be able to outclass me in most ships in less than two weeks, except for some of the supporting skills. In my obviously based opinion The skill tree isn't the issue with this sort of thing It's figuring out the game.
EVE is unforgiving, harsh, and can be a terrible pain in the ass. For some of us that's the fun part.
I completely understand why you all don't enjoy it. That I no way means That I think It should change in any way to accommodate you. but I understand why the UI, harshness, and complexity of the game detract from the experience for most people.
<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
/Raise
<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/lerk.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::lerk::" border="0" alt="lerk.gif" />
/Raise
<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/lerk.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::lerk::" border="0" alt="lerk.gif" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
/Points finger <img src="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/style_images/1/folder_post_icons/icon6.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />