locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1685539:date=Aug 9 2008, 06:38 AM:name=Marine0I)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Marine0I @ Aug 9 2008, 06:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1685539"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->True, he can, but it does differentiate him from some people I've met. Ones who don't believe in God, but even if He was real they wouldn't serve him anyway. That's all I was trying to see.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Is someone who does good works automatically serving Him, or do they have to explicitly do it for Him? What if that person is proclaiming his good works to be for The Lord and encourages others to follow him, but is really doing it for himself? Or what if this persons "good works" are really harming other people?
This is where religion and I tend to drift apart. I feel that if I can be a good person by causing the least harm/most good as possible then God(if such an entity exists) will welcome me into the next life whatever that is. I think the Bible and other religious texts offer good advice on being a good person(The Golden Rule, Always in Moderation), but they also offer some bad advice(Shunning of groups that are not your own, owning of slaves). If a God exists I wouldn't "serve" him through daily rituals or the extremes of fasting, meditation etc. I would simply respect the gift of life by trying to live it well and facilitate others in doing so. It wouldn't really change my approach to life at all.
It's okay. I took one of those internet tests once (and we know those can never be wrong), and it told me I was destined for the first circle of hell, virtuous non-believers. It's a swell place actually, and we get to hang out with all the cool philosophers. You should come, we'll have a good time.
Alright there is a bit much here for me to reply to everyone in all completeness, but I'll try to address at least a bit o' everyone: <b> Lolfighter:</b>
I think we have come to an understanding. You won't get your killer proof, but I do believe the evidence ultimately points in His direction. Why doesn't God just show himself?
In Luke 16 Jesus talks of the Rich man and Lazarus. Both die, Rich man goes to hell.
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. 27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house: 28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. 29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent 31 And he said unto him, <b>If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.</b>
All those Jews who got to see miraculous things from God? Have you actually read how they responded? Utmost faith in God... not quite. They would go from seeing miracles to idol worship in mere months. I don't hold much faith in "I'd believe it if I could see it".
<b>Pulz:</b>
Pascals wager is "might as well believe in something, nothing to lose". I never said that. I didn't ask him to jump on in and start the worshipping - I said if he wanted to see if it was real, for this God at least you can't approach with "this is all trash". Rather, he was better off at least entertaining the possibility it could be true, asking God to show him if it is, and then having a bit of an investigation. Where in that is pascals wager? It's like telling a man that if he wants the rabbit to come out of the hutch, you'll have to keep quiet for a bit. The man screams and yells for 30 minutes about what garbage that is, there is no rabbit and then because it doesn't come out, he walks off convinced the rabbit isn't in there. Some things require a particular approach in order to get results.
As for Jesuits and faith - they are correct in that faith with sight is no faith at all. You investigate, and the evidence <b>points</b> a certain way, and eventually you make a jump. Folks who are convinced it points to God jump that way, folks who are now convinced there is no God jump the other.
<b>Tycho:</b>
Most people will change their beliefs (or will profess that they will) if they can be proven wrong. I'm no different there, even though I have 100% confidence in Christianity. What I mean is that for me, Christianity gets the benefit of the doubt. There has been plenty of times when someone has challenged me on something in the Bible or about God and I thought "there is no way of getting around that one", then a few months later I found a perfectly reasonable explanation. Generally, if there is something I don't understand or can't explain, I still stick with Christianity because it's proven right plenty of times before when that happened.
I reckon you are about the same cept with atheism, or agnosticism or whatever you are <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />. Lot of people believe in evolution, yet there are some lynchpins which defy current proof. They are comfortable with a couple of hypotheses (which have arguments for and against) because overall they aren't worried, they're still sure it will be proven in the long run.
I'm not trying to convince you into my mindset. I believe I understand your mindset. "If I was wrong, the idea is that I would evaluate this rationally and swap my views until I'm right." I think this is where we fundamentally disagree - millions of people use logic and reason, atheist and theist alike and come up at millions of different conclusions. I guess if you could give it a motto it would be "reason, only reason, and nothing but reason will take me to truth". I reckon it's a valuable tool but will only ever get you part way.
<b>Locally</b>
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Is someone who does good works automatically serving Him<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Short answer no. Long answer: God has a lot of attributes: Love, Mercy, Justice and Holiness. His Holiness and Justice hates sin with a fiery passion. Humans commit sin, and God's Justice demands they go to hell for that. Ever heard the expression "who are you to judge?" That question implies that the other person has done wrong things too, so they're hypocritical. God never has, and seeing as He created us and gave us everything we have, He has every right to Judge.
But He's not just a Holy God and a Just God, He is also a loving and merciful God. There must be a punishment for sin to satisfy God's justice, and all humans have or will sin, but God loves people. So He sends Jesus, His son, to Earth to die. In God's economy, blood pays for sin - the wages of sin is death. So His perfect Son Jesus is sacrificed, God puts all the sins everyone has and will commit right upon Jesus and Jesus pays for it. Thus the Mercy and Love of God - you might have sinned and deserve death, but God himself made a way to pay for your sin: Christ. Anyone who trusts in Christ to pay for their sins becomes a Christian - and when the day comes where God judges the world, their sin has already been paid for by Christ and they don't have to pay for it themselves in Hell.
It's no good saying "I haven't sinned as much as Hilter!" - any sin is too much. It's like having a small fatal dose (You) or a large fatal dose (Hitler) of poison - both will kill you unless you have the antidote (Christ).
So even if you do do good works - God see that's, but you're still not serving Him if you reject his Son. He might use you in some way, but you're still under his judgment. A "no harm" approach to life may make Hell more tolerable for you than the mass murder, but it's still an eternity there.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What if that person is proclaiming his good works to be for The Lord and encourages others to follow him, but is really doing it for himself? Or what if this persons "good works" are really harming other people?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
God sees straight through people. If you are a Christian and serving God, He gives you his Holy Spirit and the Bible to guide you. And just like a Dad, the Lord chastens those He loves. If you are saved but still doing it for yourself, sooner or later God will take you to task. Same again if you are harming people. If you are just pretending to be a Christian... well... you can't fool God. As Jesus said:
21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
I think of that verse when I think about the Crusades and the Inquisition.
So God doesn't show himself because it doesn't matter either way? That's ridiculous. I envision Jack Nicholson sitting in the courtroom shouting "You want the proof? You can't handle the proof!" at me. AWFULLY convenient how that works out. Awfully convenient how everything about God either inherently defies or refutes proof. One might almost think it was all made up.
<!--quoteo(post=1686491:date=Aug 23 2008, 10:07 PM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(lolfighter @ Aug 23 2008, 10:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1686491"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So God doesn't show himself because it doesn't matter either way? That's ridiculous. I envision Jack Nicholson sitting in the courtroom shouting "You want the proof? You can't handle the proof!" at me. AWFULLY convenient how that works out. Awfully convenient how everything about God either inherently defies or refutes proof. One might almost think it was all made up.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ahhh I can't completely speak for God in that regard. I don't know exactly why He reveals himself at some times and not at others. Something else that bears mentioning is that in the Bible, tons of time God actually sent men - prophets. These men came, warned, were mocked and ignored, their warning came to pass and they were <b>still</b> hated/disbelieved. God didn't just show up to everyone back then and has suddenly stopped doing it now.
Look lolfighter, at the end of the day ... God doesn't owe us anything. He doesn't lose anything for people not believing in Him. He doesn't owe them perfect proof. He cared enough to take away their sin - if they want Him to. He's given them enough evidence that if they want Him, they can find Him, and if they don't, then they wont.
All seem too convenient - not really. There are tons of things you believe that you don't have concrete 100% indisputable proof on. I have never said everything about God defies proof. Multiple times I have said that I believe if you examine the evidence with an open mind it will point you to God. He's left a mass of evidence that will leave mankind completely without excuse in the day of Judgment. Mindsets and humility have a huge impact on how people examine that evidence.
<!--quoteo(post=1686496:date=Aug 23 2008, 11:42 PM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(lolfighter @ Aug 23 2008, 11:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1686496"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We've been over this. There <u>isn't</u> sufficient evidence, that's why we're arguing in the first place.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I said point to, not 100% prove which is what you mean by sufficient evidence.
You realize there are millions of chemists out there who believe in the molecular phenomena called resonance? It's where an electron shares itself between two atoms in a molecule... kind of. They have never seen it. None of them can show you a picture. A lot of the time they struggle to even draw it to properly represent what they are talking about. But they believe it because a lot of other things in chemistry point to this being the case. Is there 100% conclusive evidence for it? Not really. There is very good evidence to suggest it exists, hence a lot of predictions made assuming resonance come to pass. Now if I was a hillbilly that didn't believe in all this fancy schmancy chemistry hooha, I could cry "BS" all the way - I could refuse to believe it till them white coated fellas showed me down a microscope these "electrons" "sharing themselves". All those predictions based off resonance that come true? Coincidence! If I can't see it with my own two eyes, not worth considering.
Science is <b>packed</b> full of stuff like that. Why do you think theories are constantly being disproven and reworked? It's because they examine evidence to derive theories about stuff that they can't 100% prove or see. Some of those things you believe are true folks will laugh at in 200 years. Are you an idiot because you believe them? No - there was heaps of evidence that pointed to that particular theory being right, so you went with it.
So what I was trying to do was encourage you to experiment with God. If a science teacher wants to prove to a student the existence of steam, he tells the student to get a bunsen burner and a pot of water, set it up and watch. In the same way, I outlined what I consider to be the best way to experiment with God. If that student insists on only believing in steam if he can make it using a block of ice rather than a bunsen burner - it is never going to work. Using the wrong equipment you'll never find the answer.
Hrmmm, looking over this whole thread I reckon I've said the same thing about 50 different ways, and I don't think you're missing it, you just plain ol disagree. I think you're right, old ground. Thanks for replying lolfighter, was interesting and I appreciate you taking the time to read and respond <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
Well, I'd like to continue the argument, but I can't figure out a way of doing it without breaking the forum's "no science vs. religion arguments" rule (I've tried skirting it as much as I could up until now - others will have to tell me whether I succeeded). So I guess that's it for now.
<!--quoteo(post=1686514:date=Aug 24 2008, 09:22 AM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(lolfighter @ Aug 24 2008, 09:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1686514"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well, I'd like to continue the argument, but I can't figure out a way of doing it without breaking the forum's "no science vs. religion arguments" rule (I've tried skirting it as much as I could up until now - others will have to tell me whether I succeeded). So I guess that's it for now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Whoa, that rule is still in force? I remember when Nem made that years back... Fair enough then.
It's still <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=43638&view=findpost&p=718892" target="_blank">there</a>, so I assume it is.
puzlThe Old FirmJoin Date: 2003-02-26Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
edited August 2008
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You investigate, and the evidence points a certain way, and eventually you make a jump. Folks who are convinced it points to God jump that way, folks who are now convinced there is no God jump the other.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You investigate, and the evidence points a certain way, and eventually you make a jump. Folks who were convinced committed suicide, folks who weren't tried to leave the heavens gate cult.
Personally, I would have wanted absolute proof for such a commitment and such a crazy interpretation of human existence. The more extraordinary the claim, the more extraordinary the evidence that is required.
This sums up my atheism. Nothing from the religious walk of life comes even remotely close to evidence, so I live my life content and happy without the need for religion in my life. Furthermore, I think focusing on this life as a test for the next life, belittles the precious time we have. This is no practice run, this is the real deal, and when you die you will cease to exist so live for what is real, and not for 6 thousand year old superstitions.
And, if you don't mind answering, what evidence have you found to point you in the way of god. For the sake of a common ground, you should omit all internal evidence.
puzlThe Old FirmJoin Date: 2003-02-26Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
edited August 2008
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You realize there are millions of chemists out there who believe in the molecular phenomena called resonance? It's where an electron shares itself between two atoms in a molecule... kind of. They have never seen it. None of them can show you a picture. A lot of the time they struggle to even draw it to properly represent what they are talking about. But they believe it because a lot of other things in chemistry point to this being the case. Is there 100% conclusive evidence for it? Not really. There is very good evidence to suggest it exists, hence a lot of predictions made assuming resonance come to pass. Now if I was a hillbilly that didn't believe in all this fancy schmancy chemistry hooha, I could cry "BS" all the way - I could refuse to believe it till them white coated fellas showed me down a microscope these "electrons" "sharing themselves". All those predictions based off resonance that come true? Coincidence! If I can't see it with my own two eyes, not worth considering.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Okay, firstly, chemists don't 'Believe' in resonance. They accept it as a best fit explanation for an observable phenomenon. They see some behaviour, they construct a hypothesis of what might be occuring, they do some experimentation they produce a theory that fits the observable results. This will get revised as new observations force them to refine their results and tune their theory. Sometimes, a new observation requires them to throw out the old theory completely and come up with a new one. Now, this isn't faith, and it is no way similar to it. Science doesn't need 100% conclusive evidence because it is a pragmatic tool for predicting results. As long as a theory has utility without internal contradiction it is fine.
Faith on the other hand is almost the opposite of this. It requires contradiciton for you to demonstrate your faith to others. It requires subservience to a ancient moral codes without question. Anything that might be contradictory to the bible is 'planted there by god to test us'. It is the enemy of curiosity about nature. You cite one of sciences greatest strengths - its constant struggle to revise and improve - as something to support the rather vague statements religion makes about existence.
If you were a hillbilly, you wouldn't need to believe in resonance, nobody would ask you to, and nothing in your daily life would require it. Now, if only said hillbilly would apply the same sort of skepticism to faith - the world would be a better place! Instead of fancy schamncy chemistry, he has hocus pocus faith and the gaps in reasoning there are much more profound than a concept limited to the organisation of atoms in molecules.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
edited August 2008
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>Locally</b> Short answer no. Long answer: God has a lot of attributes: Love, Mercy, Justice and Holiness. His Holiness and Justice hates sin with a fiery passion. Humans commit sin, and God's Justice demands they go to hell for that. Ever heard the expression "who are you to judge?" That question implies that the other person has done wrong things too, so they're hypocritical. God never has, and seeing as He created us and gave us everything we have, He has every right to Judge.
But He's not just a Holy God and a Just God, He is also a loving and merciful God. There must be a punishment for sin to satisfy God's justice, and all humans have or will sin, but God loves people. So He sends Jesus, His son, to Earth to die. In God's economy, blood pays for sin - the wages of sin is death. So His perfect Son Jesus is sacrificed, God puts all the sins everyone has and will commit right upon Jesus and Jesus pays for it. Thus the Mercy and Love of God - you might have sinned and deserve death, but God himself made a way to pay for your sin: Christ. Anyone who trusts in Christ to pay for their sins becomes a Christian - and when the day comes where God judges the world, their sin has already been paid for by Christ and they don't have to pay for it themselves in Hell.
It's no good saying "I haven't sinned as much as Hilter!" - any sin is too much. It's like having a small fatal dose (You) or a large fatal dose (Hitler) of poison - both will kill you unless you have the antidote (Christ).
So even if you do do good works - God see that's, but you're still not serving Him if you reject his Son. He might use you in some way, but you're still under his judgment. A "no harm" approach to life may make Hell more tolerable for you than the mass murder, but it's still an eternity there. God sees straight through people. If you are a Christian and serving God, He gives you his Holy Spirit and the Bible to guide you. And just like a Dad, the Lord chastens those He loves. If you are saved but still doing it for yourself, sooner or later God will take you to task. Same again if you are harming people. If you are just pretending to be a Christian... well... you can't fool God. As Jesus said:
21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
I think of that verse when I think about the Crusades and the Inquisition.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's all well and good as long as Jesus is the messiah. This brings the discussion back to the "one true religion". I'm not worried about hell any more than I'm worried about Atlantis or any other mythical place. I don't need the threat of hell to try and be a good person so anything beyond that seems like a formality/superstition/tradition.
Become a Freemason, they provide all the good morals and values that religion pushes on you without giving you odd stories to guide you with fear.
If you are truly a good person, what god would reject you for not idolizing them. It would be hypocritical or down right wrong to allow those who have "sinned" and asked for forgiveness in then reject those who were truly a good person.
The bible has so many issues that it had to be written by man and not a god.
puzlThe Old FirmJoin Date: 2003-02-26Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
edited August 2008
Belief in a god or creator is a requirement to become a freemason <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
ThansalThe New ScumJoin Date: 2002-08-22Member: 1215Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1686698:date=Aug 26 2008, 05:20 PM:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(puzl @ Aug 26 2008, 05:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1686698"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Belief in a god or creator is a requirement to become a freemason <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> And a Y chromosome.
btw, Puzl explained the difference between Faith and Scientific Theory perfectly.
There are many people that mistakenly take theories as acts of Faith, but they are just as wrong as the Klan is in claiming that what they do is the will of God. (yes, extreme, but I couldn't think of a better one <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />)
A true <strike>Scotsman</strike> scientist will change the theory to fit new data, or scrap the theory if it can not be supported.
Comments
Is someone who does good works automatically serving Him, or do they have to explicitly do it for Him? What if that person is proclaiming his good works to be for The Lord and encourages others to follow him, but is really doing it for himself? Or what if this persons "good works" are really harming other people?
This is where religion and I tend to drift apart. I feel that if I can be a good person by causing the least harm/most good as possible then God(if such an entity exists) will welcome me into the next life whatever that is. I think the Bible and other religious texts offer good advice on being a good person(The Golden Rule, Always in Moderation), but they also offer some bad advice(Shunning of groups that are not your own, owning of slaves). If a God exists I wouldn't "serve" him through daily rituals or the extremes of fasting, meditation etc. I would simply respect the gift of life by trying to live it well and facilitate others in doing so. It wouldn't really change my approach to life at all.
<b>
Lolfighter:</b>
I think we have come to an understanding. You won't get your killer proof, but I do believe the evidence ultimately points in His direction. Why doesn't God just show himself?
In Luke 16 Jesus talks of the Rich man and Lazarus. Both die, Rich man goes to hell.
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent
31 And he said unto him, <b>If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.</b>
All those Jews who got to see miraculous things from God? Have you actually read how they responded? Utmost faith in God... not quite. They would go from seeing miracles to idol worship in mere months. I don't hold much faith in "I'd believe it if I could see it".
<b>Pulz:</b>
Pascals wager is "might as well believe in something, nothing to lose". I never said that. I didn't ask him to jump on in and start the worshipping - I said if he wanted to see if it was real, for this God at least you can't approach with "this is all trash". Rather, he was better off at least entertaining the possibility it could be true, asking God to show him if it is, and then having a bit of an investigation. Where in that is pascals wager? It's like telling a man that if he wants the rabbit to come out of the hutch, you'll have to keep quiet for a bit. The man screams and yells for 30 minutes about what garbage that is, there is no rabbit and then because it doesn't come out, he walks off convinced the rabbit isn't in there. Some things require a particular approach in order to get results.
As for Jesuits and faith - they are correct in that faith with sight is no faith at all. You investigate, and the evidence <b>points</b> a certain way, and eventually you make a jump. Folks who are convinced it points to God jump that way, folks who are now convinced there is no God jump the other.
<b>Tycho:</b>
Most people will change their beliefs (or will profess that they will) if they can be proven wrong. I'm no different there, even though I have 100% confidence in Christianity. What I mean is that for me, Christianity gets the benefit of the doubt. There has been plenty of times when someone has challenged me on something in the Bible or about God and I thought "there is no way of getting around that one", then a few months later I found a perfectly reasonable explanation. Generally, if there is something I don't understand or can't explain, I still stick with Christianity because it's proven right plenty of times before when that happened.
I reckon you are about the same cept with atheism, or agnosticism or whatever you are <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />. Lot of people believe in evolution, yet there are some lynchpins which defy current proof. They are comfortable with a couple of hypotheses (which have arguments for and against) because overall they aren't worried, they're still sure it will be proven in the long run.
I'm not trying to convince you into my mindset. I believe I understand your mindset. "If I was wrong, the idea is that I would evaluate this rationally and swap my views until I'm right." I think this is where we fundamentally disagree - millions of people use logic and reason, atheist and theist alike and come up at millions of different conclusions. I guess if you could give it a motto it would be "reason, only reason, and nothing but reason will take me to truth". I reckon it's a valuable tool but will only ever get you part way.
<b>Locally</b>
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Is someone who does good works automatically serving Him<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Short answer no. Long answer: God has a lot of attributes: Love, Mercy, Justice and Holiness. His Holiness and Justice hates sin with a fiery passion. Humans commit sin, and God's Justice demands they go to hell for that. Ever heard the expression "who are you to judge?" That question implies that the other person has done wrong things too, so they're hypocritical. God never has, and seeing as He created us and gave us everything we have, He has every right to Judge.
But He's not just a Holy God and a Just God, He is also a loving and merciful God. There must be a punishment for sin to satisfy God's justice, and all humans have or will sin, but God loves people. So He sends Jesus, His son, to Earth to die. In God's economy, blood pays for sin - the wages of sin is death. So His perfect Son Jesus is sacrificed, God puts all the sins everyone has and will commit right upon Jesus and Jesus pays for it. Thus the Mercy and Love of God - you might have sinned and deserve death, but God himself made a way to pay for your sin: Christ. Anyone who trusts in Christ to pay for their sins becomes a Christian - and when the day comes where God judges the world, their sin has already been paid for by Christ and they don't have to pay for it themselves in Hell.
It's no good saying "I haven't sinned as much as Hilter!" - any sin is too much. It's like having a small fatal dose (You) or a large fatal dose (Hitler) of poison - both will kill you unless you have the antidote (Christ).
So even if you do do good works - God see that's, but you're still not serving Him if you reject his Son. He might use you in some way, but you're still under his judgment. A "no harm" approach to life may make Hell more tolerable for you than the mass murder, but it's still an eternity there.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What if that person is proclaiming his good works to be for The Lord and encourages others to follow him, but is really doing it for himself? Or what if this persons "good works" are really harming other people?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
God sees straight through people. If you are a Christian and serving God, He gives you his Holy Spirit and the Bible to guide you. And just like a Dad, the Lord chastens those He loves. If you are saved but still doing it for yourself, sooner or later God will take you to task. Same again if you are harming people. If you are just pretending to be a Christian... well... you can't fool God. As Jesus said:
21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
I think of that verse when I think about the Crusades and the Inquisition.
Ahhh I can't completely speak for God in that regard. I don't know exactly why He reveals himself at some times and not at others. Something else that bears mentioning is that in the Bible, tons of time God actually sent men - prophets. These men came, warned, were mocked and ignored, their warning came to pass and they were <b>still</b> hated/disbelieved. God didn't just show up to everyone back then and has suddenly stopped doing it now.
Look lolfighter, at the end of the day ... God doesn't owe us anything. He doesn't lose anything for people not believing in Him. He doesn't owe them perfect proof. He cared enough to take away their sin - if they want Him to. He's given them enough evidence that if they want Him, they can find Him, and if they don't, then they wont.
All seem too convenient - not really. There are tons of things you believe that you don't have concrete 100% indisputable proof on. I have never said everything about God defies proof. Multiple times I have said that I believe if you examine the evidence with an open mind it will point you to God. He's left a mass of evidence that will leave mankind completely without excuse in the day of Judgment. Mindsets and humility have a huge impact on how people examine that evidence.
I said point to, not 100% prove which is what you mean by sufficient evidence.
You realize there are millions of chemists out there who believe in the molecular phenomena called resonance? It's where an electron shares itself between two atoms in a molecule... kind of. They have never seen it. None of them can show you a picture. A lot of the time they struggle to even draw it to properly represent what they are talking about. But they believe it because a lot of other things in chemistry point to this being the case. Is there 100% conclusive evidence for it? Not really. There is very good evidence to suggest it exists, hence a lot of predictions made assuming resonance come to pass. Now if I was a hillbilly that didn't believe in all this fancy schmancy chemistry hooha, I could cry "BS" all the way - I could refuse to believe it till them white coated fellas showed me down a microscope these "electrons" "sharing themselves". All those predictions based off resonance that come true? Coincidence! If I can't see it with my own two eyes, not worth considering.
Science is <b>packed</b> full of stuff like that. Why do you think theories are constantly being disproven and reworked? It's because they examine evidence to derive theories about stuff that they can't 100% prove or see. Some of those things you believe are true folks will laugh at in 200 years. Are you an idiot because you believe them? No - there was heaps of evidence that pointed to that particular theory being right, so you went with it.
So what I was trying to do was encourage you to experiment with God. If a science teacher wants to prove to a student the existence of steam, he tells the student to get a bunsen burner and a pot of water, set it up and watch. In the same way, I outlined what I consider to be the best way to experiment with God. If that student insists on only believing in steam if he can make it using a block of ice rather than a bunsen burner - it is never going to work. Using the wrong equipment you'll never find the answer.
Hrmmm, looking over this whole thread I reckon I've said the same thing about 50 different ways, and I don't think you're missing it, you just plain ol disagree. I think you're right, old ground. Thanks for replying lolfighter, was interesting and I appreciate you taking the time to read and respond <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
Whoa, that rule is still in force? I remember when Nem made that years back... Fair enough then.
You investigate, and the evidence points a certain way, and eventually you make a jump. Folks who were convinced committed suicide, folks who weren't tried to leave the heavens gate cult.
Personally, I would have wanted absolute proof for such a commitment and such a crazy interpretation of human existence. The more extraordinary the claim, the more
extraordinary the evidence that is required.
This sums up my atheism. Nothing from the religious walk of life comes even remotely close to evidence, so I live my life content and happy without the need for religion in my life.
Furthermore, I think focusing on this life as a test for the next life, belittles the precious time we have. This is no practice run, this is the real deal, and when you die you will cease to exist so live for what is real, and not for 6 thousand year old superstitions.
And, if you don't mind answering, what evidence have you found to point you in the way of god. For the sake of a common ground, you should omit all internal evidence.
Okay, firstly, chemists don't 'Believe' in resonance. They accept it as a best fit explanation for an observable phenomenon. They see some behaviour, they construct a hypothesis of what might be occuring, they do some experimentation they produce a theory that fits the observable results. This will get revised as new observations force them to refine their results and tune their theory. Sometimes, a new observation requires them to throw out the old theory completely and come up with a new one. Now, this isn't faith, and it is no way similar to it. Science doesn't need 100% conclusive evidence because it is a pragmatic tool for predicting results. As long as a theory has utility without internal contradiction it is fine.
Faith on the other hand is almost the opposite of this. It requires contradiciton for you to demonstrate your faith to others. It requires subservience to a ancient moral codes without question. Anything that might be contradictory to the bible is 'planted there by god to test us'. It is the enemy of curiosity about nature. You cite one of sciences greatest strengths - its constant struggle to revise and improve - as something to support the rather vague statements religion makes about existence.
If you were a hillbilly, you wouldn't need to believe in resonance, nobody would ask you to, and nothing in your daily life would require it. Now, if only said hillbilly would apply the same sort of skepticism to faith - the world would be a better place! Instead of fancy schamncy chemistry, he has hocus pocus faith and the gaps in reasoning there are much more profound than a concept limited to the organisation of atoms in molecules.
Short answer no. Long answer: God has a lot of attributes: Love, Mercy, Justice and Holiness. His Holiness and Justice hates sin with a fiery passion. Humans commit sin, and God's Justice demands they go to hell for that. Ever heard the expression "who are you to judge?" That question implies that the other person has done wrong things too, so they're hypocritical. God never has, and seeing as He created us and gave us everything we have, He has every right to Judge.
But He's not just a Holy God and a Just God, He is also a loving and merciful God. There must be a punishment for sin to satisfy God's justice, and all humans have or will sin, but God loves people. So He sends Jesus, His son, to Earth to die. In God's economy, blood pays for sin - the wages of sin is death. So His perfect Son Jesus is sacrificed, God puts all the sins everyone has and will commit right upon Jesus and Jesus pays for it. Thus the Mercy and Love of God - you might have sinned and deserve death, but God himself made a way to pay for your sin: Christ. Anyone who trusts in Christ to pay for their sins becomes a Christian - and when the day comes where God judges the world, their sin has already been paid for by Christ and they don't have to pay for it themselves in Hell.
It's no good saying "I haven't sinned as much as Hilter!" - any sin is too much. It's like having a small fatal dose (You) or a large fatal dose (Hitler) of poison - both will kill you unless you have the antidote (Christ).
So even if you do do good works - God see that's, but you're still not serving Him if you reject his Son. He might use you in some way, but you're still under his judgment. A "no harm" approach to life may make Hell more tolerable for you than the mass murder, but it's still an eternity there.
God sees straight through people. If you are a Christian and serving God, He gives you his Holy Spirit and the Bible to guide you. And just like a Dad, the Lord chastens those He loves. If you are saved but still doing it for yourself, sooner or later God will take you to task. Same again if you are harming people. If you are just pretending to be a Christian... well... you can't fool God. As Jesus said:
21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
I think of that verse when I think about the Crusades and the Inquisition.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's all well and good as long as Jesus is the messiah. This brings the discussion back to the "one true religion". I'm not worried about hell any more than I'm worried about Atlantis or any other mythical place. I don't need the threat of hell to try and be a good person so anything beyond that seems like a formality/superstition/tradition.
Edit: fixed quote tags
If you are truly a good person, what god would reject you for not idolizing them. It would be hypocritical or down right wrong to allow those who have "sinned" and asked for forgiveness in then reject those who were truly a good person.
The bible has so many issues that it had to be written by man and not a god.
And a Y chromosome.
btw, Puzl explained the difference between Faith and Scientific Theory perfectly.
There are many people that mistakenly take theories as acts of Faith, but they are just as wrong as the Klan is in claiming that what they do is the will of God. (yes, extreme, but I couldn't think of a better one <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />)
A true <strike>Scotsman</strike> scientist will change the theory to fit new data, or scrap the theory if it can not be supported.