New Engine - Physics and Gameplay
NeoSniper
Join Date: 2005-06-02 Member: 52976Members
Join Date: 2005-06-02 Member: 52976Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Physics must NOT be just eye-candy</div>My biggest suggestion for the engine/game is that physics are worked into the game play in some novel way, and not just eye candy. Things that come to mind are:
-Certain alien attack-connect being more physics based. Example > Devour:
*would leave marine visible flailing in onos' jaws and exact position of marine in the jaws would depends on how well the Onos connected.
*Time to death could be faster/slower depending on whether he just grabs the arm or the torso. This because there could be some swallowing animation where the ragdoll is being slowly pulled in to the Onos mouth and once he is fully in the player is dead.
*Perhaps the actual swallowing animation would be too hard so simply the ragdoll hanging from the Onos mouth and then finally being gibbed in half would suffice.
*would be a lot more scary experience from the victims POV. As instead of just going into the "stomach screen" you'll still have no control but a shaking view of your surroundings.
*Plus gives Marines a cue that the Onos is eating their teammate.
*dynamics where the Onos cannot attack while Devouring could be added where the plus side would be a partial human shield which will either deter the wild shooting calling for more precise aiming or simply your victim will die faster.
That's my more inspired idea but I think many of the alien attacks will be able to be rethought to take advantage of more advanced physics of NS2 over NS1. Of course whole NEW mechanics will also surely come this. Other ideas are briefly:
-aliens attacks whose damage depends on actual momentum (think leap being more of a head butt than the continuous-slash its now). It would then lose advantage when attacking from below as gravity will slow down the attack up to the apex of the jump and thus reduce the damage. Shooting the skulk in mid air would also slow it down giving advantage to the quicker reflexed marines. Yet giving some advantage to the skulk where even if it dies in mid air it can still have a chance to connect the attack with the corpse.
-lerk gas could have varying effects depending on how close or open the area is. When shot into a narrow hall way it could either
*affect a longer area to compensate volume lost on the sides
*dissipate slower due to higher concentration.
*do more damage due to higher concentration.
More of a gameplay thing than engine thing.
*the gas could dissipate faster if more marines are breathing it in and really slow if none are. Heavy armor could still count as breathing in the gas yet take no damage as their suits "filter the air".
-marines having like a "gun-raise" block which could reduce alien attack damage from the front. At the cost of not being able to shoot. Perhaps equipment such as riot shields could be equipped such that the block effect is a lot move effective at the cost of weapon choice(or accuracy when not block but still carrying the shield).
-some marines buildings (sentries?) being un-welded(and deactivated), picked up and moved(physics part), and re-welded to floor(wall?).
- All units having Mass and Strength so that Onos are NOT blocked by smaller lifeforms
*also the stronger onos (or 2 fades, 5 skulks, etc) would be able to push certain large objects with could then open/close paths and change map dynamics. Just like weld points do for marines but in completely different way for the Aliens.
*some could be reversible having marines trying to push the large object back into position with Heavies being stronger than normal marines.
-I fully support cool physics stuff surrounding the whole rail car idea, especially if integral to winning/losing the map.
Enough for now from this forum Noob. Sorry if some of this has been disgusted before I am rather new to the forums outside the podcast threads. I'll catch up on topics soon enough.
NS
-Certain alien attack-connect being more physics based. Example > Devour:
*would leave marine visible flailing in onos' jaws and exact position of marine in the jaws would depends on how well the Onos connected.
*Time to death could be faster/slower depending on whether he just grabs the arm or the torso. This because there could be some swallowing animation where the ragdoll is being slowly pulled in to the Onos mouth and once he is fully in the player is dead.
*Perhaps the actual swallowing animation would be too hard so simply the ragdoll hanging from the Onos mouth and then finally being gibbed in half would suffice.
*would be a lot more scary experience from the victims POV. As instead of just going into the "stomach screen" you'll still have no control but a shaking view of your surroundings.
*Plus gives Marines a cue that the Onos is eating their teammate.
*dynamics where the Onos cannot attack while Devouring could be added where the plus side would be a partial human shield which will either deter the wild shooting calling for more precise aiming or simply your victim will die faster.
That's my more inspired idea but I think many of the alien attacks will be able to be rethought to take advantage of more advanced physics of NS2 over NS1. Of course whole NEW mechanics will also surely come this. Other ideas are briefly:
-aliens attacks whose damage depends on actual momentum (think leap being more of a head butt than the continuous-slash its now). It would then lose advantage when attacking from below as gravity will slow down the attack up to the apex of the jump and thus reduce the damage. Shooting the skulk in mid air would also slow it down giving advantage to the quicker reflexed marines. Yet giving some advantage to the skulk where even if it dies in mid air it can still have a chance to connect the attack with the corpse.
-lerk gas could have varying effects depending on how close or open the area is. When shot into a narrow hall way it could either
*affect a longer area to compensate volume lost on the sides
*dissipate slower due to higher concentration.
*do more damage due to higher concentration.
More of a gameplay thing than engine thing.
*the gas could dissipate faster if more marines are breathing it in and really slow if none are. Heavy armor could still count as breathing in the gas yet take no damage as their suits "filter the air".
-marines having like a "gun-raise" block which could reduce alien attack damage from the front. At the cost of not being able to shoot. Perhaps equipment such as riot shields could be equipped such that the block effect is a lot move effective at the cost of weapon choice(or accuracy when not block but still carrying the shield).
-some marines buildings (sentries?) being un-welded(and deactivated), picked up and moved(physics part), and re-welded to floor(wall?).
- All units having Mass and Strength so that Onos are NOT blocked by smaller lifeforms
*also the stronger onos (or 2 fades, 5 skulks, etc) would be able to push certain large objects with could then open/close paths and change map dynamics. Just like weld points do for marines but in completely different way for the Aliens.
*some could be reversible having marines trying to push the large object back into position with Heavies being stronger than normal marines.
-I fully support cool physics stuff surrounding the whole rail car idea, especially if integral to winning/losing the map.
Enough for now from this forum Noob. Sorry if some of this has been disgusted before I am rather new to the forums outside the podcast threads. I'll catch up on topics soon enough.
NS
Comments
oh and i love the rail system.....even if there won't be a full "car-like-system" or anyting like this
the rail would still be cool....so PLEASE <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
Imagine a fade passing by a marine at full blink speed and slashing him, that would certainly do more dmg than walking up and slashing. Or blinking straight into the marine and slashing at the right time.
A skulk could leap past a marine and bite him along the way, while its teeth are holding the marine, the skulk has momentum so he rips off more, doing more dmg.
Another thing is about velocity and collisions. Marines/aliens should not be invulnerable to collisions!
As it is now, a marine can use up all fuel to accelerate to max speed and hit the ceiling - and take no dmg whatsoever (in reality his head would've been pretty crushed)! Or fly at full speed into a wall without dmg. Same thing with aliens.
I think there should be a punishment dmg of some sort. Small to moderate for all unit types, but offcourse different for diffrent lifeforms. And if two plyers collide, but should take some dmg. Maybe also some other kind of punishment, like dizziness (distorted vision), loss of full control, stun?
/w
Imagine a fade passing by a marine at full blink speed and slashing him, that would certainly do more dmg than walking up and slashing. Or blinking straight into the marine and slashing at the right time.
A skulk could leap past a marine and bite him along the way, while its teeth are holding the marine, the skulk has momentum so he rips off more, doing more dmg.
Another thing is about velocity and collisions. Marines/aliens should not be invulnerable to collisions!
As it is now, a marine can use up all fuel to accelerate to max speed and hit the ceiling - and take no dmg whatsoever (in reality his head would've been pretty crushed)! Or fly at full speed into a wall without dmg. Same thing with aliens.
I think there should be a punishment dmg of some sort. Small to moderate for all unit types, but offcourse different for diffrent lifeforms. And if two plyers collide, but should take some dmg. Maybe also some other kind of punishment, like dizziness (distorted vision), loss of full control, stun?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like the idea of timing affecting how much damage you do. It would be hard to script since you're usually different distances away from your targets. I'm generally against stun/blinding effects, but damage being more dependent on timing and velocity sounds cool.
I don't know if it should work for marines too though. It sounds cool but bullets all ready travel pretty fast and it seems a bit counter intuitive for them.
As far as physics being tied into the gameplay itself, and not just the visual:
definitely, <b>vote <!--coloro:#00CC00--><span style="color:#00CC00"><!--/coloro-->yes<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b>
PS: Thank you for making this topic.
*affect a longer area to compensate volume lost on the sides
*dissipate slower due to higher concentration.
*do more damage due to higher concentration.
More of a gameplay thing than engine thing.
*the gas could dissipate faster if more marines are breathing it in and really slow if none are. Heavy armor could still count as breathing in the gas yet take no damage as their suits "filter the air".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Would be a good idea but then you also must stack multiple gas-effects when Lerk fires off more rounds [e.g. more gas breathed in = more damage]
If you would put this realism to the game you must also insert some advantages to the changes...
Imagine a fade passing by a marine at full blink speed and slashing him, that would certainly do more dmg than walking up and slashing. Or blinking straight into the marine and slashing at the right time.
A skulk could leap past a marine and bite him along the way, while its teeth are holding the marine, the skulk has momentum so he rips off more, doing more dmg.
Another thing is about velocity and collisions. Marines/aliens should not be invulnerable to collisions!
As it is now, a marine can use up all fuel to accelerate to max speed and hit the ceiling - and take no dmg whatsoever (in reality his head would've been pretty crushed)! Or fly at full speed into a wall without dmg. Same thing with aliens.
I think there should be a punishment dmg of some sort. Small to moderate for all unit types, but offcourse different for diffrent lifeforms. And if two plyers collide, but should take some dmg. Maybe also some other kind of punishment, like dizziness (distorted vision), loss of full control, stun?
/w<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah for JP-abusing marines this would be good but how about that blinking fade blinking increadibly fast against a wall? He'd die... also leaps from skulks should be damaging the allways land on their feet. For marines this would be a good idea but certainly not for aliens [Lerks flying flying onto walls, Fades blinking into walls, Skulks leaping onto walls vs only marines having a JP to crash into walls]
also it doesn't make much sense in terms of gameplay. imagine you are leaping at a marine. one moment jsut before you collide, say yuo could bite for ( 50 + (0.3 x speed)) damage. a split second later... you run into the marine and instantly stop, cutting your damage down to 50.
i understand this could be fun and strategical, but realize it takes away the ability to 'mix it up' with how you leap at a marine. your best option will always be to go around or over the marine, biting sideways as you go past.
meh, my argument sucks, but honestly, its a bit too in depth gameplay, and i think NS2 should be kept at somewhat simple gameplay, thats fairly easy to grasp, but with a good learning curve, and a great skill variance, removing skill caps.
blerhfgh..
however, i think charge onos kill physics could be good. i think ragdolls hitting other players, should cause damage. ie, if a skulk is leaping at you and you kill it, but its corpse still flies into you at a great speed, its gonna freakin hurt. id also like to see marine knockdown for that matter.
im so bored. ignore this.
I think you bring up a good point that it may make reduce combat options by making there be one best way to do things. However, if you think about the example you provide, having the skulk make some distance before attacking is beneficial for the marine since it's easier to aim at the skulk. I think there are still some good trade offs in such a system.
Thats why i wrote this:
"I think there should be a punishment dmg of some sort. Small to moderate for all unit types, but offcourse different for diffrent lifeforms."
What i simply don't like is that jp/skulk/fade/lerk are imprevious to collisions, im not talking about insta death when walking into a wall. Just some appropriete (not too small/big) punishment so the game would seem more realistic with people avoiding such silly movement. Fades need to be more careful with blinking, skulks can't drop fom infinite hights, JP's have to think with/about their heads instead of reversing gravity everytime an alien is in sight.
So speed could both help (more dmg) and hurt (careless movement/collisions).
player with mass M pushes with force F in direction D of the key they are pressing, anything they impact pushes back, and force over a certain level does damage (such as falling) in scale with the force.
This would allow more powerful classes to bulldoze lighter ones out of the way, prevent charging onos stopping on a dime.
I imagine handling steps could be a problem, but not insurmountable (no pun intended).
Blink I rule out as being a non-issue because it is a form of teleportation, like phasing and is as such except from the laws of physics thet govern conventional movement.
How is gameplay easy to grasp while having a great skill variance with no skill caps?
I guess you're talking about "easy to learn, hard to master".
But I would say that the proposed system isn't necessarily problematic in those terms.
EDIT: Don't do this:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->* would be a lot more scary experience from the victims POV. As instead of just going into the "stomach screen" you'll still have no control but a shaking view of your surroundings.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Onos landing on rines - should HURT, MUCH! That would be awesome! kinda like knifing in cs <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" /> <humiliation>
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<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tiny.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::onos::" border="0" alt="tiny.gif" />
<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/marine.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::marine::" border="0" alt="marine.gif" />
^-O sh*t
Push against obstacle for crush dmg is a good idea!
I guess you're talking about "easy to learn, hard to master".
But I would say that the proposed system isn't necessarily problematic in those terms.
EDIT: Don't do this:<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Okay.... Starcraft.... Street Fighter 3.... those are games with a steep learning curve, and harder to grasp. You have to learn build orders, learn moves, learn combos, etc etc.
With NS, you pick up a gun, and hold a button. Or look at a marine and click a button. That is simple.
I don't think its problematic either, however, i think you are overestimating the intelligence of the average person. And thats why i make this argument.
With NS, you pick up a gun, and hold a button. Or look at a marine and click a button. That is simple.
I don't think its problematic either, however, i think you are overestimating the intelligence of the average person. And thats why i make this argument.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well I think what he's saying is that it's tough to find singular skills that are both intuitive and hard to master. I agree with <b>Radix</b> that you often have to pick and choose which skills will be easy to learn and have a skill cap, and which skills will be hard to master and have a high skill cap, if any.
Maybe... Im just saying dont stick too much depth into a basic attack like bite.
Onos landing on rines - should HURT, MUCH! That would be awesome! kinda like knifing in cs <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" /> <humiliation>
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<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tiny.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::onos::" border="0" alt="tiny.gif" />
<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/marine.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::marine::" border="0" alt="marine.gif" />
^-O sh*t
Push against obstacle for crush dmg is a good idea!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Id like to see marines get 'squeezed' out from under Onos'.
Somewhat how clipping works in TF2... You can walk into anyone, but you get pushed away from each other.
This would remove Onos' standing on marines heads and so on.
I think that all aliens and marines should have pushout boxes rather than being solid.
So they will be able to essentially move through anything, but that will depend on their speed, and mass ratio with the thing its going into.
Some examples;
A skulk leaping at a marine, would move through it, but as it passes through it, the marine and skulk would both get pushed apart in that instant (fairly quick push). The skulk would get pushed a lot more as it weighs less. This would not effect the momentum of the skulk much.
If an onos jumped on a skulk, the skulk would be slowly be pushed out to the side. The onos would not move.
An onos simply walking into marines would simply just push the marines backwards.
Marines walking into each other will never 'clip' into each other, as they are not moving fast enough.
A group of fast running skulks would be able to 'blend' into each other more nicely, never being blocked by some slow moving skulk infront of you.
Note; you would never really see any two models clipped inside one another. Only mild clipping will occur.
Would be good imho <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />.
Note: If you havent played TF2 and dont really know what im talking about, its not that jagged pushing that you see a lot in HL1. Its a very smooth, accelerated push.
I don't think we're on the same page; wouldn't that be the best place to put it? It's easy to bite someone, but hard to get the best out of it possible.
Neh, i really dont care, as long as there are no varying damage hitboxes im happy.
Could you elaborate a bit? I've played The Hidden, although not recently, and I don't remember physics being a part of it, at least not any more than HL2 deathmatch.