Peek & Aim
the_x5
the Xzianthian Join Date: 2004-03-02 Member: 27041Members, Constellation
the Xzianthian Join Date: 2004-03-02 Member: 27041Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">new marine movements that are in-character</div><!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b><!--coloro:#00BFFF--><span style="color:#00BFFF"><!--/coloro-->Problem<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->:</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
I remember UWE stating in a podcast that they wanted to make the marines and aliens in NS2 as different as possible. At the same time it’s been suggested that things like animations for boosting other marine players, pull-ups over ledges or tall crates, and fixing ladder animations are useful means to fix the appearance of marine movements in the 3rd person. But none of those are really giving the marines a whole lot more than what they had for maneuverability in NS. So how can you enhance marine gameplay in how they can move, yet not make them agile speedy travelers like most of the alien attack classes? What would make marines feel more like actual marines?
Note: These ideas to enhance the marine FPS gameplay are already kind of being thrown around loosely in semi-off-topic context in reply posts to other ideas, I’m simply refining them and gathering them here as an formal idea
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b><!--coloro:#00BFFF--><span style="color:#00BFFF"><!--/coloro-->Solution<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->:</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
<b><!--coloro:#006600--><span style="color:#006600"><!--/coloro-->Peeking<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b> – it allows you to look around the corner (or ladder) and fire while affording yourself maximum cover<ul><li> <b>Use</b> – scouting and taking cover from ranged attacks such as acid rockets, lerk spikes, gorge spit, OC spikes, and whatever else comes at you at range in NS2</li><li> <b>Counter</b> – you have to “un-peekâ€, meaning it takes you a fraction of a second to change stance in which an enemy can hit you in your blind spot</li></ul><b><!--coloro:#006600--><span style="color:#006600"><!--/coloro-->Enhanced Aiming<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b> – or just called aiming; it allows you to actively “tighten†your aim to hit more distant targets, slightly decreasing FoV (Field of View); and notably decreased movement speed (with jump disabled)<ul><li> <b>Use</b> – In the hands of a skilled player it can mean the difference between that enemy that just mauled your squad from escaping and dying, in a unite group marines can cover a long corridor more effectively, forcing the aliens to use a different route or get slaughtered (well unless that’s a horde of onii, lol)</li><li> <b>Counter</b> – Decreased FoV = less peripheral vision, meaning you are blind to more of what’s around you which is particularly deadly considering your enemies are melee and often invisible and/or silent; moving slower and no jumping also makes you a prime target for getting blindsided *aims in… RIPPPP! “Where in the hell…?!â€*</li></ul>If you are having trouble trying to figure out how this works, the best example I can give you just to watch some GRAW for Xbox360 gameplay and watch for the parts where the player aims in and peeks around corners.<ul><li><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCe5_05nDGY" target="_blank">(best for demo-ing order waypointing and peeking)</a></li><li><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbiX-dOVULw" target="_blank">(a review with a lot of gameplay footage, sometimes using aim squeeze thing while zoomed in)</a>
When Ubisoft ported this game to the PC they enhanced the waypointing, made the whole game rather buggy (tons of glitches), and removed the “aiming†feature that felt so natural on the 360… But yeah that looks like this if you want to see the first person view you are used to.</li><li><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nax_chFuXbI" target="_blank">(PC version gameplay)</a></li></ul>Your thoughts?
I remember UWE stating in a podcast that they wanted to make the marines and aliens in NS2 as different as possible. At the same time it’s been suggested that things like animations for boosting other marine players, pull-ups over ledges or tall crates, and fixing ladder animations are useful means to fix the appearance of marine movements in the 3rd person. But none of those are really giving the marines a whole lot more than what they had for maneuverability in NS. So how can you enhance marine gameplay in how they can move, yet not make them agile speedy travelers like most of the alien attack classes? What would make marines feel more like actual marines?
Note: These ideas to enhance the marine FPS gameplay are already kind of being thrown around loosely in semi-off-topic context in reply posts to other ideas, I’m simply refining them and gathering them here as an formal idea
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b><!--coloro:#00BFFF--><span style="color:#00BFFF"><!--/coloro-->Solution<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->:</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
<b><!--coloro:#006600--><span style="color:#006600"><!--/coloro-->Peeking<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b> – it allows you to look around the corner (or ladder) and fire while affording yourself maximum cover<ul><li> <b>Use</b> – scouting and taking cover from ranged attacks such as acid rockets, lerk spikes, gorge spit, OC spikes, and whatever else comes at you at range in NS2</li><li> <b>Counter</b> – you have to “un-peekâ€, meaning it takes you a fraction of a second to change stance in which an enemy can hit you in your blind spot</li></ul><b><!--coloro:#006600--><span style="color:#006600"><!--/coloro-->Enhanced Aiming<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b> – or just called aiming; it allows you to actively “tighten†your aim to hit more distant targets, slightly decreasing FoV (Field of View); and notably decreased movement speed (with jump disabled)<ul><li> <b>Use</b> – In the hands of a skilled player it can mean the difference between that enemy that just mauled your squad from escaping and dying, in a unite group marines can cover a long corridor more effectively, forcing the aliens to use a different route or get slaughtered (well unless that’s a horde of onii, lol)</li><li> <b>Counter</b> – Decreased FoV = less peripheral vision, meaning you are blind to more of what’s around you which is particularly deadly considering your enemies are melee and often invisible and/or silent; moving slower and no jumping also makes you a prime target for getting blindsided *aims in… RIPPPP! “Where in the hell…?!â€*</li></ul>If you are having trouble trying to figure out how this works, the best example I can give you just to watch some GRAW for Xbox360 gameplay and watch for the parts where the player aims in and peeks around corners.<ul><li><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCe5_05nDGY" target="_blank">(best for demo-ing order waypointing and peeking)</a></li><li><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbiX-dOVULw" target="_blank">(a review with a lot of gameplay footage, sometimes using aim squeeze thing while zoomed in)</a>
When Ubisoft ported this game to the PC they enhanced the waypointing, made the whole game rather buggy (tons of glitches), and removed the “aiming†feature that felt so natural on the 360… But yeah that looks like this if you want to see the first person view you are used to.</li><li><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nax_chFuXbI" target="_blank">(PC version gameplay)</a></li></ul>Your thoughts?
Comments
I would suggest that peeking be restricted to blindfire, or a long change of stance. Either way, accuracy should also drop since you're using a non-conventional setup to fire around a corner.
As for tightening, I kinda like. Depends on implementation. If we're talking iron sight/scope system, I'm usually OK with it as long as it actually increases accuracy. If we're doing blur out vision on screen, then there had better be pick up and fall time when switching modes. Both will of course have to include lower movement speed. I'm a fan of CoD4's system where the accuracy itself does improve, to an extent, by looking down the sights. However, at longer ranges, you are standstill and also have to hold your breath for a moment to get that extra bit of accuracy to a headshot. Probably not as applicable for NS since we're not playing in giant rolling landscapes. The worst idea ever is weapons that don't lose accuracy when unscoped, see Counter-Strike and no scoping. TF2's system for the Sniper scoping is also a pretty good implementation in my eyes.
Overall, these would be gravy, but very nice features to have.
I specifically avoided any of those and only used GRAW's implementation as an example of how to do it.
BE SURE TO WATCH THE VIDEOS COMPLETELY FOR THIS IDEA
I know from playing GRAW and GRAW2 competitively online that you can't "wiggle peak" or "run peak" and you get a downside of reduced mobility when doing it. Granted there's other glitches the PC versions had at first such as scoping glitches and slide glitches (which they fixed in a later patch), but you can't peek while running. I've never had issues hitting with people peaking in a fire fight when they are not behind cover. It anything somebody does retarded like that they are either a noobie who doesn't know their control or playing the game while drunk and/or stoned. Not to mention we are talking about primarily melee attack, so you lean and the fade misses your head and hits you in the obliques.
I supposed it should be implied that you can only do it when up against a brush (such as a wall or crate) or while walking.
<!--quoteo(post=1679696:date=May 29 2008, 02:12 PM:name=spellman23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(spellman23 @ May 29 2008, 02:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1679696"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As for tightening, I kinda like. Depends on implementation. If we're talking iron sight/scope system, I'm usually OK with it as long as it actually increases accuracy. If we're doing blur out vision on screen, then there had better be pick up and fall time when switching modes. Both will of course have to include lower movement speed. I'm a fan of CoD4's system where the accuracy itself does improve, to an extent, by looking down the sights. However, at longer ranges, you are standstill and also have to hold your breath for a moment to get that extra bit of accuracy to a headshot. Probably not as applicable for NS since we're not playing in giant rolling landscapes. The worst idea ever is weapons that don't lose accuracy when unscoped, see Counter-Strike and no scoping. TF2's system for the Sniper scoping is also a pretty good implementation in my eyes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah... let me make this large text for attentionL
<!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Make sure if these are implemented to put a warmup/cooldown delay between switching so it can't be exploited.
Please!<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
When you hold "E" you'll tighten your aim. (you can still use e to "use") And when you press A or D while holding E, you'll lean to the respective side.
Slowing down and passivating the gameplay tempo is a way to increase the newbie friendliness, but then again the mobile gameplay is one of the reasons why I play ns. The big difference to the CS and DoD and such is that you don't have to outskill the enemy to beat his stationary position. It has got a huge effect on pub games.
When you hold "E" you'll tighten your aim. (you can still use e to "use") And when you press A or D while holding E, you'll lean to the respective side.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's an interesting idea, sort of like a "crouch to tighten cone of fire". Does anyone know why NS1 doesn't do this? I can't think of a reason other than the time it takes to balance a new feature.
I don't think I would ever use a peek as a marine, even if it avoided obvious flaws. If I think an enemy is around the corner I'm not going to get close to a wall to look around it and lose mobility from both the peek and being against a wall.
Kharaa could use a peek though, especially a skulk scout.
When you hold "E" you'll tighten your aim. (you can still use e to "use") And when you press A or D while holding E, you'll lean to the respective side.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good idea aNytiMe. Of course people can bind them to any key they choose later.
<!--quoteo(post=1679756:date=May 30 2008, 02:45 AM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Bacillus @ May 30 2008, 02:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1679756"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Peeking depends a lot of the ranger arsenal the aliens have. The problem of those additions is that they might promote passive gameplay. One of the major differences between the good and the bad is that good players can act quickly. Most likely we would see newbies peeking and aiming to the distance while you need to hurry up and take advantage of the situation, while the quick gameplay most likely leaves quite little use for the peeking and aiming in the hands of an experienced player. Obiviously they might make peeking and zooming useful in the gameplay, but I'd rather not go that way unless they can preserve the quick tempo somehow.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The tempo of NS has picked up a whole lot from what it was in v1.04. NS2 wouldn't be much different. In a new game all people are newbies, it's not until later after many games and many hours of learning what makes you victorious or get owned that the tempo picks up more.
In other words, people will learn when to and when not to use these abilities available to them from trial & error.
If you are on the other team, this is a boon to you if some of your enemies are inexperienced and clumsy.
If you are on the team with the inexperienced players, then it might be wise to share the knowledge and teach them how it is done properly.
<!--quoteo(post=1679756:date=May 30 2008, 02:45 AM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Bacillus @ May 30 2008, 02:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1679756"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Slowing down and passivating the gameplay tempo is a way to increase the newbie friendliness, but then again the mobile gameplay is one of the reasons why I play ns. The big difference to the CS and DoD and such is that you don't have to outskill the enemy to beat his stationary position. It has got a huge effect on pub games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In addition to what I already just said, don't forget that the control over resource nodes, structures, and researched technologies allow a game like NS to evolve from sneaking around to mass chaos. The chaotic gameplay you enjoy will depend on the upgrades and how they are balanced more than minor marine mobility additions/features like peek and aim.
<!--quoteo(post=1679794:date=May 30 2008, 12:26 PM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(locallyunscene @ May 30 2008, 12:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1679794"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's an interesting idea, sort of like a "crouch to tighten cone of fire". Does anyone know why NS1 doesn't do this? I can't think of a reason other than the time it takes to balance a new feature.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's exactly the reason Zunni locked the thread in the NS I&S (for v3.1 to NS v3.2, I think) which suggested that: "requires too much rebalancing"
(...yet +movement was added?)
This is of course a null argument for an initial release of NS2 where <i>everything </i>will have to be balanced from scratch.
If you are on the other team, this is a boon to you if some of your enemies are inexperienced and clumsy.
If you are on the team with the inexperienced players, then it might be wise to share the knowledge and teach them how it is done properly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pre-ns I'd have gone for the trial & error way. Now I don't know. Skulks are still running long hallways and the marines are lost quite bad most of the time. NS2 should be easier to understand anyway so a few additions like that shouldn't hurt too much. Nevertheless, you have to avoid giving newbies too many options that are useless most of the time, since it confuses them a lot. When they are confused, they pick the slowest way to play the game. It's not a bad thing after all, but I fear its going to be the turrets in base reaction all over again, now on the field marines too. They'll just stick around in weird places peeking and zooming since it allows them to play slowly and frag some random skulks. Hopefully I'm wrong though.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In addition to what I already just said, don't forget that the control over resource nodes, structures, and researched technologies allow a game like NS to evolve from sneaking around to mass chaos. The chaotic gameplay you enjoy will depend on the upgrades and how they are balanced more than minor marine mobility additions/features like peek and aim.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not sure what you're trying to point out, but see the above why I fear its going to slow stuff down. Camping and stationary warfare are fine, but I'd rather have them done because its a part of the tactic, not because people want to frag.
Generally speaking I've got nothing against the peeking and zooming as long as the average pubber can handle them and play the game for the team and hopefully even some tactics, not for frags.
I think the main issue with changing cones of fire is it brings up weird issues. Sniping with a shotgun is obviously something to be avoided. The trick is, sometimes you need to loosen the accuracy as an Alien gets closer. Not everyone can track, and I think somewhere I heard/read that the lmg had its accuracy turned down to help people kill skulks at close range.
Also x5, as I said, MOST are borken. Those are the bad examples that should never be implemented ever again into the multiplayer arena.
I think it still would. Does the marine around the corner have a shotgun? Is he waiting in ambush or paying attention to something else? Of course you risk exposing your presence and/or wasting time for your attack but that depends how likely you think he waiting for you.
I didn't suggest crouching, you could do it standing up too.
GRAW isn't the only game with a "press and hold key to tighten up your aim", I believe Doom3 and Far Cry and others also have it, but the difference is that you can't sprint around while doing that -- you stop and/or move quite slowly (you can't run at any distance leaning way over to the side; you'd just fall down like an idiot)
<!--quoteo(post=1680052:date=Jun 2 2008, 02:34 PM:name=spellman23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(spellman23 @ Jun 2 2008, 02:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1680052"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also x5, as I said, MOST are borken. Those are the bad examples that should never be implemented ever again into the multiplayer arena.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What's "borken"? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
(But seriously now, what are you referring to, exactly?)
<!--quoteo(post=1680059:date=Jun 2 2008, 02:57 PM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(locallyunscene @ Jun 2 2008, 02:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1680059"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think it still would. Does the marine around the corner have a shotgun? Is he waiting in ambush or paying attention to something else? Of course you risk exposing your presence and/or wasting time for your attack but that depends how likely you think he waiting for you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ah yes, so is it also like in NS when a marine is camping the vent exit? Perhaps, the "aim" could be used to zoom in a bit on that distant target you are trying to hit with a parasite then?
Avoiding parasite. Getting a little more distance to possible skulks while checking corners.
Both which could make the difference in balanced, closely matched tactical combat between who emerges victorious. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
(But seriously now, what are you referring to, exactly?)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My prior post about all the bad ways this could be implemented. Rainbow six style, for example.
Basically, if it can fit, why not. If it can't, don't waste time on it.
i think canadianwolverine suggested this before. although acrobatics is a stretch, and parkour/free-running require obstacles (but perhaps this is where part of the context sensitive, comes in?)
And where are all those "I support ironsight people" from last year?
This is pretty much my take on it. Marines don't expect to have to use cover because the aliens don't shoot bullets. If anything, a marine would be more wary of cover because it gives an opportunity for an alien to be hiding behind it. I would file this under scope creep.