If you don't like how another person is running the server THEY paid for, then unfortunately that is YOUR problem. It is not THEIR problem.
If they are running it badly, people will leave, and they will spend more than they can gain. If they are running it well, then all power to them.
RSlots -
Encourage people to play on your server, because you are keeping a space for them. Encourage skill homeostasis, because you have the same 30-60 players playing all the time, so everyone is on a mostly level playing field.
This actually addresses prohibitive skill differences. It makes a nice club of FRIENDS, a COMMUNITY, and that keeps the game alive longterm. Keeping the game alive is a goal of the dev team, and a goal of the players. In a team based game with asymmetric balance, you need to know how good your fellow players are.
If you just want to nob about with 11 other friends, buy Quake or UT or something and tool around aimlessly. You'll have great fun. Otherwise, feel free to rant in the appropriate sub-forum, don't derail this thread about it.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1677771:date=May 5 2008, 03:36 PM:name=Necrosis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Necrosis @ May 5 2008, 03:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1677771"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you don't like how another person is running the server THEY paid for, then unfortunately that is YOUR problem. It is not THEIR problem.
If they are running it badly, people will leave, and they will spend more than they can gain. If they are running it well, then all power to them. RSlots -
Encourage people to play on your server, because you are keeping a space for them. Encourage skill homeostasis, because you have the same 30-60 players playing all the time, so everyone is on a mostly level playing field.
This actually addresses prohibitive skill differences. It makes a nice club of FRIENDS, a COMMUNITY, and that keeps the game alive longterm. Keeping the game alive is a goal of the dev team, and a goal of the players. In a team based game with asymmetric balance, you need to know how good your fellow players are.
If you just want to nob about with 11 other friends, buy Quake or UT or something and tool around aimlessly. You'll have great fun. Otherwise, feel free to rant in the appropriate sub-forum, don't derail this thread about it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm more worried about "prohibitive skill differences" for new players. I think this system is good for the reasons you mentioned, but doesn't address that core issue.
Hari, I think you havea point but you're presenting it the wrong way. Unless the guys and gals at Google start offering GServer you're always going to be dependent on a server admin, who paid for his server. So from that angle it seems like a pointless argument. The real problem is that this could wreak havoc with the casual players by kicking them. If I got bumped from two or three servers in the middle of a game, I'd probably be ticked off enough to stop playing for a while. Even if I wasn't in a game, how am I supposed to be a regular if I keep getting bounced at the end of the round? Also, not everyone wants to/has the time to build a community, some people just want to play the game. Those players get RSlotted and NS2 gets a bad reputation for bouncing players. It only takes a few vocal people to make it seem like an epidemic even if it wasn't.
<!--quoteo(post=1677771:date=May 6 2008, 03:36 AM:name=Necrosis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Necrosis @ May 6 2008, 03:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1677771"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you don't like how another person is running the server THEY paid for, then unfortunately that is YOUR problem. It is not THEIR problem.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Necrosis, you're either deliberately or ignorantly missing the point. <!--quoteo(post=1677710:date=May 5 2008, 01:36 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Harimau @ May 5 2008, 01:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1677710"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think you're missing the key point here. I'm not arguing against the 'status quo', ranting yes; <b>I'm arguing against your proposed solution.</b> You seem to not understand that for most people, gaming is not a job, a subscription or a club; it's simply a way to entertain themselves and pass the time. Because I don't like the way admins run things, I should buy my own server, spend time and effort to maintain and administrate it, and 'do unto others'? Don't be ridiculous.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Unless you weren't serious, and were just ######ing around? Then we can disregard the entire argument.
I also find it funny you didn't reply to this: <!--quoteo(post=1677710:date=May 5 2008, 01:36 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Harimau @ May 5 2008, 01:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1677710"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wait, so I said this when?
You have a remarkable talent for putting words in other persons' mouths. You should be a politician or a journalist.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1677788:date=May 6 2008, 07:41 AM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(locallyunscene @ May 6 2008, 07:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1677788"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hari, I think you havea point but you're presenting it the wrong way. Unless the guys and gals at Google start offering GServer you're always going to be dependent on a server admin, who paid for his server. So from that angle it seems like a pointless argument. The real problem is that this could wreak havoc with the casual players by kicking them. If I got bumped from two or three servers in the middle of a game, I'd probably be ticked off enough to stop playing for a while. Even if I wasn't in a game, how am I supposed to be a regular if I keep getting bounced at the end of the round? Also, not everyone wants to/has the time to build a community, some people just want to play the game. Those players get RSlotted and NS2 gets a bad reputation for bouncing players. It only takes a few vocal people to make it seem like an epidemic even if it wasn't.
Kicking players is just asking for trouble..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> thanks local. i guess i was too busy focusing on the causes to look at the results. so thanks for the input. but really, my argument was against the pointlessness of proposing what is a relatively unattainable solution; for those that can, and feel that because they've been kicked a lot <b>the logical conclusion</b> is to run their own server and 'do unto others' (<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" />), then go for it.
Aside from community, you can have "slots for donations", or by tying slots into some form of recording system.
I can only speak from my own experience, I believe that building communities makes the game a lot tighter and really improves the consistency of play. Community doesn't necessarily mean having a forum and a fancy webpage, it just means having regular players that you get to know.
Taking a community server, you'll have your slotters effectively becoming the measure of "average player skill". This means that greener players have a decent environment for fast learning (they can rely on their teammates to carry them a little) and also makes it easier for players to spot disruption. Consider league type servers, because they too have a "community" of like-minded players, and while they might not all speak to each other, they're still assured of a certain level of play.
Where NS falls apart is when you have servers full of random connectors, no established player base, and people are left to do as they please. In short, your standard Unranked server. Very hard to play a good game of NS. By keeping a community, or at least promoting regular play on favourite servers, you create a good "skill base" to build around.
So yes, while slotting and community may not "directly" address prohibitive skill gaps, it does indirectly solve the problem by creating a fairly well defined average skill level that people can measure themselves against.
I do agree that noone likes to be kicked, but there has been some discussion over a system to indicate to the player their likelihood of being kicked. This would be handy regardless of whether or not a server had a dedicated community.
Hope that clears up what I'm addressing when I say "community". Forums are nice but they're not absolutely necessary if you have regular players and an attentive admin.
Now, I can understand if you're addressing a possible problem where a player is just naturally unlucky and gets kicked for many games in a row. Hopefully this will be less of an issue when NS2 reinvigorates our player/server base. Otherwise, we'll be in an Allegiance situation where you have the same 20 guys permaslotting their server and killing NS - which is the point you're driving at, more or less. Am I right?
Har -
Considering your attitude in other threads, why do you think you're even worthy of anything greater than a glib one-sentence reply?
But aren't the only people in a position to train recruits ALSO be the same people we have to "protect" them from?
I mean, training is quicker in NS when you're playing against someone of marginally better skill. Anyone could tag a stationary skulk, the trick is doing it when it's bhopping or wallcrawling to the best of it's ability.
There have been a few attempts at training servers in the past, but I'm fairly certain there hasn't been one that specifically involved green players vs green players without a solid veteran presence.
But aren't the only people in a position to train recruits ALSO be the same people we have to "protect" them from?
I mean, training is quicker in NS when you're playing against someone of marginally better skill. Anyone could tag a stationary skulk, the trick is doing it when it's bhopping or wallcrawling to the best of it's ability. There have been a few attempts at training servers in the past, but I'm fairly certain there hasn't been one that specifically involved green players vs green players without a solid veteran presence.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Maybe that could be a revival of NSGuides. It would give the guides a focused task(specific servers) that's measurable and targeted.
Sarisel.::' ( O ) ';:-. .-.:;' ( O ) '::.Join Date: 2003-07-30Member: 18557Members, Constellation
If new players were encouraged to join official NS2Guides servers (which would have NS2Guide players on them), then that would be very helpful to get new players going in NS2. All that's needed are some representatives in the major continents and <b>good organization</b>.
Comments
If they are running it badly, people will leave, and they will spend more than they can gain.
If they are running it well, then all power to them.
RSlots -
Encourage people to play on your server, because you are keeping a space for them.
Encourage skill homeostasis, because you have the same 30-60 players playing all the time, so everyone is on a mostly level playing field.
This actually addresses prohibitive skill differences. It makes a nice club of FRIENDS, a COMMUNITY, and that keeps the game alive longterm. Keeping the game alive is a goal of the dev team, and a goal of the players. In a team based game with asymmetric balance, you need to know how good your fellow players are.
If you just want to nob about with 11 other friends, buy Quake or UT or something and tool around aimlessly. You'll have great fun. Otherwise, feel free to rant in the appropriate sub-forum, don't derail this thread about it.
If they are running it badly, people will leave, and they will spend more than they can gain.
If they are running it well, then all power to them.
RSlots -
Encourage people to play on your server, because you are keeping a space for them.
Encourage skill homeostasis, because you have the same 30-60 players playing all the time, so everyone is on a mostly level playing field.
This actually addresses prohibitive skill differences. It makes a nice club of FRIENDS, a COMMUNITY, and that keeps the game alive longterm. Keeping the game alive is a goal of the dev team, and a goal of the players. In a team based game with asymmetric balance, you need to know how good your fellow players are.
If you just want to nob about with 11 other friends, buy Quake or UT or something and tool around aimlessly. You'll have great fun. Otherwise, feel free to rant in the appropriate sub-forum, don't derail this thread about it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm more worried about "prohibitive skill differences" for new players. I think this system is good for the reasons you mentioned, but doesn't address that core issue.
Hari, I think you havea point but you're presenting it the wrong way. Unless the guys and gals at Google start offering GServer you're always going to be dependent on a server admin, who paid for his server. So from that angle it seems like a pointless argument. The real problem is that this could wreak havoc with the casual players by kicking them. If I got bumped from two or three servers in the middle of a game, I'd probably be ticked off enough to stop playing for a while. Even if I wasn't in a game, how am I supposed to be a regular if I keep getting bounced at the end of the round? Also, not everyone wants to/has the time to build a community, some people just want to play the game. Those players get RSlotted and NS2 gets a bad reputation for bouncing players. It only takes a few vocal people to make it seem like an epidemic even if it wasn't.
Kicking players is just asking for trouble..
<!--quoteo(post=1677710:date=May 5 2008, 01:36 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Harimau @ May 5 2008, 01:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1677710"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think you're missing the key point here. I'm not arguing against the 'status quo', ranting yes; <b>I'm arguing against your proposed solution.</b>
You seem to not understand that for most people, gaming is not a job, a subscription or a club; it's simply a way to entertain themselves and pass the time. Because I don't like the way admins run things, I should buy my own server, spend time and effort to maintain and administrate it, and 'do unto others'? Don't be ridiculous.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Unless you weren't serious, and were just ######ing around? Then we can disregard the entire argument.
I also find it funny you didn't reply to this:
<!--quoteo(post=1677710:date=May 5 2008, 01:36 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Harimau @ May 5 2008, 01:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1677710"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wait, so I said this when?
You have a remarkable talent for putting words in other persons' mouths. You should be a politician or a journalist.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1677788:date=May 6 2008, 07:41 AM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(locallyunscene @ May 6 2008, 07:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1677788"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hari, I think you havea point but you're presenting it the wrong way. Unless the guys and gals at Google start offering GServer you're always going to be dependent on a server admin, who paid for his server. So from that angle it seems like a pointless argument. The real problem is that this could wreak havoc with the casual players by kicking them. If I got bumped from two or three servers in the middle of a game, I'd probably be ticked off enough to stop playing for a while. Even if I wasn't in a game, how am I supposed to be a regular if I keep getting bounced at the end of the round? Also, not everyone wants to/has the time to build a community, some people just want to play the game. Those players get RSlotted and NS2 gets a bad reputation for bouncing players. It only takes a few vocal people to make it seem like an epidemic even if it wasn't.
Kicking players is just asking for trouble..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
thanks local. i guess i was too busy focusing on the causes to look at the results. so thanks for the input.
but really, my argument was against the pointlessness of proposing what is a relatively unattainable solution; for those that can, and feel that because they've been kicked a lot <b>the logical conclusion</b> is to run their own server and 'do unto others' (<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" />), then go for it.
Aside from community, you can have "slots for donations", or by tying slots into some form of recording system.
I can only speak from my own experience, I believe that building communities makes the game a lot tighter and really improves the consistency of play. Community doesn't necessarily mean having a forum and a fancy webpage, it just means having regular players that you get to know.
Taking a community server, you'll have your slotters effectively becoming the measure of "average player skill". This means that greener players have a decent environment for fast learning (they can rely on their teammates to carry them a little) and also makes it easier for players to spot disruption. Consider league type servers, because they too have a "community" of like-minded players, and while they might not all speak to each other, they're still assured of a certain level of play.
Where NS falls apart is when you have servers full of random connectors, no established player base, and people are left to do as they please. In short, your standard Unranked server. Very hard to play a good game of NS. By keeping a community, or at least promoting regular play on favourite servers, you create a good "skill base" to build around.
So yes, while slotting and community may not "directly" address prohibitive skill gaps, it does indirectly solve the problem by creating a fairly well defined average skill level that people can measure themselves against.
I do agree that noone likes to be kicked, but there has been some discussion over a system to indicate to the player their likelihood of being kicked. This would be handy regardless of whether or not a server had a dedicated community.
Hope that clears up what I'm addressing when I say "community". Forums are nice but they're not absolutely necessary if you have regular players and an attentive admin.
Now, I can understand if you're addressing a possible problem where a player is just naturally unlucky and gets kicked for many games in a row. Hopefully this will be less of an issue when NS2 reinvigorates our player/server base. Otherwise, we'll be in an Allegiance situation where you have the same 20 guys permaslotting their server and killing NS - which is the point you're driving at, more or less. Am I right?
Har -
Considering your attitude in other threads, why do you think you're even worthy of anything greater than a glib one-sentence reply?
also we need training servers for new players.
But aren't the only people in a position to train recruits ALSO be the same people we have to "protect" them from?
I mean, training is quicker in NS when you're playing against someone of marginally better skill. Anyone could tag a stationary skulk, the trick is doing it when it's bhopping or wallcrawling to the best of it's ability.
There have been a few attempts at training servers in the past, but I'm fairly certain there hasn't been one that specifically involved green players vs green players without a solid veteran presence.
But aren't the only people in a position to train recruits ALSO be the same people we have to "protect" them from?
I mean, training is quicker in NS when you're playing against someone of marginally better skill. Anyone could tag a stationary skulk, the trick is doing it when it's bhopping or wallcrawling to the best of it's ability.
There have been a few attempts at training servers in the past, but I'm fairly certain there hasn't been one that specifically involved green players vs green players without a solid veteran presence.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe that could be a revival of NSGuides. It would give the guides a focused task(specific servers) that's measurable and targeted.