I will throw in my two cents here, along with some old wooden money i have hidden away in a drawer for when the nations of Europe revert back to their own individual currencies again. Also, I think I overdid it slightly, for the sake of the argument. Yeah right...
There seem to be two main arguments for keeping stats during play (apart from the "alienating score show-offs"-thing, which I will get to in due time). The kills/deaths helps estimate the res gained from kills, and it helps the commander not waste res on retards (to be blunt).
This first argument stands and falls with res for kills, and as the resource model is being reworked for NS2, using this as an argument for - or against - kill/death scores is somewhat of a gamble. I think I would be derailing the topic slightly if I started arguing for removing res for kills, so I'll join the x5 fan club and hope someone is listening. It's an old discussion, and there's plenty of forum to search for good points.
The second main point presented in favour of individual scores was the commanders need to be able to maximize the value of equipment issued by making sure it ends up in the right hands. As I understand the podcasts, the marines themselves will be in control of their equipment in NS2, rendering this argument pretty useless.
With RFK gone, and marines handling their own equipment, the scoreboard provides none to little useful information (Unless it is reconfigured to show equipment - lifeform, location or other some such). So, removing scores can be done without really inconveniencing anyone. Removing kills, deaths - everything really - is a great opportunity for natural selection to make a statement right of the bat. Welcome to Natural Selection, we don't care how many frags you get! Then what do you care about? Teamwork! See, here is your squad, go help them. And even if res for kills is carried to NS2, I think the teamwork emphasis is worth the loss of information. By far.
As for alienating players with a sufficiently "competitive nature" to make a scoreboard absolutely utterly vital. **** them. I want them so alienated that they won't know which way earth is. I simply don't want them within a 500 ms ping radius of the servers I frequent. I would even refund their twenty bucks.
Teamplay should be emphasized above all, and I see removing kills/deaths/scores in general as a fine means to achieving this.
In short: <!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro-->yes<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->. Remove scores, remove all of them. Kills, deaths, arbitrary scores for buildings and welding, team totals, remove across the board. Bind tab to show the minimap as default, this gives you a far better idea of how your team is doing anyway.
Go communist dream! I chose you! Returning to a more rational state of mind: If I were to create NS2, I would have no scores during the games, none at all, and instead have private stats at the end of each round. Stuff like structures built, shots fired, aliens killed, numbers of deaths, time spent as lerk, the name of the player who used the word "lol" the most during the last round, and the amount of baloney one would need to actually recreate a 1:1 baloney model of a hive. (God knows we all want to do this...)
Edit: Fixed a few spelling errors, and introduced some new ones.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1673750:date=Mar 20 2008, 02:36 PM:name=Private)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Private @ Mar 20 2008, 02:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1673750"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->With RFK gone<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> [citation needed] I must have missed that one.
I really haven't been keeping up on this topic, but I think almost everyone went down an odd tangent that really doesn't have to do with the real issues that would arise with removing the scoreboard.
People play NS for two reasons. One is to win, and the other is to shoot aliens or bite marines. But in general, thats in reverse order.
People play for the experience first and foremost, which would be classified as 'shooting aliens or biting marines'. Winning is a much longer term goal of individual players. It is definitely very important, but people don't just play to win; they play to have an awesome time for those 20-40 minutes until they win.
Removing the scoreboard would take away a lot of the long-term enjoyment and appreciation of this aspect of the game. If I just went on a rampage of killing 5 skulks, i'll be pumped, but I'll almost immediately check the scoreboard afterwards. Just like EVERYONE else. If there's no scoreboard, at that moment, my enjoyment will get a small 'oh' accompanied by a frown, because the game devs unnecessarily removed a simple info compiler.
Its INFORMATION. If you do well, you get a few small numbers as a pat on your back. If you don't do well, you can see the guys who do so you can know who to learn from.
And hell, the times when I'm not on top, but rather 0/10, I still look at the scoreboard a few times every life. Its a reminder that I can do better. And I always want that reminder there.
/me pauses the current topic to address an off-topic issue that is of sensitive importance
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If your team gets res from aliens that the team's members have killed, that's fine too (of course there's still a debate over this, but let's ignore that for a moment). But would it make sense for your team to get res for its members building and welding?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To answer your question, no it wouldn't of course. (although there could be other effective means of an incentive to influence general player behavior in a public setting)
But there's a bigger problem here, you just tried to scuffle the RFK for marines being negligible under the rug in front of my omnipresent eyes in this forum. That ain't gonna fly buddy. How many years and probably ~50 posts from me alone are on this board's history where made strong arguments for removing RFK for marines? Too many. (Do pay note to how I keep on saying marines by the way. It has generally been agree this is a good idea for aliens and even makes some logical sense -- ie: "eating" the marine as food) In short until marines don't get RFK I think the system will always have issue surrounding rambos.
I just had to add that in. Too irksome for me to see ignored when you are talking about K:D and resources models.
/me resumes the topic and fades back into the shadows
<!--quoteo(post=1673754:date=Mar 20 2008, 09:16 PM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(locallyunscene @ Mar 20 2008, 09:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1673754"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->[citation needed] I must have missed that one.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, this is where my own private world takes over. I foresee that RFK will not make it into NS2, but I base this on absolutely nothing. I think they should leave it out, I hope they do, but the closest bit of information on this thing I remember from the podcast is a reworking of the resource model. I hope this will be the end of RFK, but I am speculating.
<!--quoteo(post=1673746:date=Mar 20 2008, 02:29 PM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(locallyunscene @ Mar 20 2008, 02:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1673746"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No contested area is "secure" against a good alien team. If you're welding and your teammate is covering, the teammate who is covering should get the kill of any skulk that shows up.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> 1) Kill all aliens on your screen. 2) Weld phase gate. 3) Stop welding phase gate to shoot off the alien bdropping your teammate. (you DO have a LMG right?) 4) Weld phase gate.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1:1 marines do win games because they're the ones capping welding and building.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Are they also capable of killing alien nodes? Are they capable of capping more than one node at a time? What about defending nodes? What about building phase gates by hives? Killing fades and lerks?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You need your pressure team making kills and your capping team building to win the game. An entire team 1:1 against skulks signifies a larger problem of teammates not covering each other.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Or just having terrible aim. You can be the best team player, going around building all of the buildings and welding everything, you are still not going to win the game if you can't kill skulks. What are you going to do about fades? You will be a liability for the team.
<!--quoteo(post=1673762:date=Mar 20 2008, 05:20 PM:name=StixNStonz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(StixNStonz @ Mar 20 2008, 05:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1673762"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->People play NS for two reasons. One is to win, and the other is to shoot aliens or bite marines. But in general, thats in reverse order.
People play for the experience first and foremost, which would be classified as 'shooting aliens or biting marines'. Winning is a much longer term goal of individual players. It is definitely very important, but people don't just play to win; they play to have an awesome time for those 20-40 minutes until they win.
Removing the scoreboard would take away a lot of the long-term enjoyment and appreciation of this aspect of the game. If I just went on a rampage of killing 5 skulks, i'll be pumped, but I'll almost immediately check the scoreboard afterwards. Just like EVERYONE else. If there's no scoreboard, at that moment, my enjoyment will get a small 'oh' accompanied by a frown, because the game devs unnecessarily removed a simple info compiler.
Its INFORMATION. If you do well, you get a few small numbers as a pat on your back. If you don't do well, you can see the guys who do so you can know who to learn from.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> ^
<!--quoteo(post=1673765:date=Mar 21 2008, 06:55 AM:name=the_x5)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(the_x5 @ Mar 21 2008, 06:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1673765"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But there's a bigger problem here, you just tried to scuffle the RFK for marines being negligible under the rug in front of my omnipresent eyes in this forum. <i>[more senior ramble..]</i><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Err, no. The argument of whether RFK should stay or go, had nothing to do with my argument - hence the "let's ignore that for the moment" (wrong place, wrong time, and completely irrelevant). My argument was against earning res (or any "hard" currency to be spent on "tangible" equipment) for building and welding and such. Personally I don't care, either way, whether RFK stays or not. But please, no RFS(upport), are we agreed?
As for the actual topic, Stix' and Domining's arguments are starting to sound.. more compelling? So I'm changing my opinion. My opinion is that I don't have any opinion. I don't really care whether death count stays or goes, anymore. I just wanna shoot some ######ing skulks.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1673806:date=Mar 20 2008, 11:29 PM:name=Domining)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Domining @ Mar 20 2008, 11:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1673806"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1) Kill all aliens on your screen. 2) Weld phase gate. 3) Stop welding phase gate to shoot off the alien bdropping your teammate. (you DO have a LMG right?) 4) Weld phase gate.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, and the person covering you will likely get the kill because they don't have to switch to their LMG first. <!--quoteo(post=1673806:date=Mar 20 2008, 11:29 PM:name=Domining)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Domining @ Mar 20 2008, 11:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1673806"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Are they also capable of killing alien nodes? Are they capable of capping more than one node at a time? What about defending nodes? What about building phase gates by hives? Killing fades and lerks?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's killing alien nodes, getting forward phases and fighting fades and lerks is what the pressure team is for. You need both groups of people performing their roles. <!--quoteo(post=1673806:date=Mar 20 2008, 11:29 PM:name=Domining)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Domining @ Mar 20 2008, 11:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1673806"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Or just having terrible aim. You can be the best team player, going around building all of the buildings and welding everything, you are still not going to win the game if you can't kill skulks. What are you going to do about fades? You will be a liability for the team.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> A marine should have good aim, that's a no brainer. He won't have a good score if he's the one welding, capping, etc. A marine performing those activities is just more vulnerable. I don't understand why you think everyone on your team has to have an uber score to win, that's not the case. It helps, but objectives are more important than kills. I still don't think death count is important and this is offtopic, but saying 1:1 marines don't help win games is just wrong.
I really don't see the issue here, honestly. In a good team people weld and build and shoot when they're needed. Sure it happens after a while that some of the team is the dude who naturally is the guy who starts building the siege or whatever, but that's how it is.
People who play for the team to win and not for their own sake don't CARE about their score, as long as they feel they have done their part. For these people it doesn't freaking matter. For the players who play on pubs to see if they can improve their game sense and aim, a K:D score gives the feedback they need. And they're happy.
Taking away this information only alienates players, it doesn't bring in new ones.
Mh, I'm repeating myself from page 2. How come no one responded to that post? It basically sums up the entire against argument in a few freaking sentences.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
edited March 2008
<!--quoteo(post=1673877:date=Mar 21 2008, 05:24 PM:name=tjosan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tjosan @ Mar 21 2008, 05:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1673877"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I really don't see the issue here, honestly. In a good team people weld and build and shoot when they're needed. Sure it happens after a while that some of the team is the dude who naturally is the guy who starts building the siege or whatever, but that's how it is.
People who play for the team to win and not for their own sake don't CARE about their score, as long as they feel they have done their part. For these people it doesn't freaking matter. For the players who play on pubs to see if they can improve their game sense and aim, a K:D score gives the feedback they need. And they're happy.
Taking away this information only alienates players, it doesn't bring in new ones.
Mh, I'm repeating myself from page 2. How come no one responded to that post? It basically sums up the entire against argument in a few freaking sentences.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> QFT
<!--quoteo(post=1673837:date=Mar 21 2008, 11:12 AM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(locallyunscene @ Mar 21 2008, 11:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1673837"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes, and the person covering you will likely get the kill because they don't have to switch to their LMG first.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> A) It doesn't take 1 second to get your LMG out. B) Its probably going to take your buddy covering you more than 1 second to kill the skulk.
You have a chance at getting a kill for it. It'd be even better if assists were in.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's killing alien nodes, getting forward phases and fighting fades and lerks is what the pressure team is for. You need both groups of people performing their roles.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> There is no reason a player should always be pressure or capping in a public game. I have every player I know cap nodes at some point in a game.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A marine should have good aim, that's a no brainer. He won't have a good score if he's the one welding, capping, etc. A marine performing those activities is just more vulnerable. I don't understand why you think everyone on your team has to have an uber score to win, that's not the case. It helps, but objectives are more important than kills. I still don't think death count is important and this is offtopic, but saying 1:1 marines don't help win games is just wrong.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> There is no reason welding should cause you to have a lower score. Welders don't make you drop your primary guns or anything. It unfortunately does apply for capping nodes. (since you are capping, you are probably not moving towards the hive) Also, capping nodes is boring, I would like to see this fixed in NS2. And also, kills are objectives. Kills are also most important on your list of priorities most of the time due to the nature of the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1673877:date=Mar 21 2008, 05:24 PM:name=tjosan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tjosan @ Mar 21 2008, 05:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1673877"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I really don't see the issue here, honestly. In a good team people weld and build and shoot when they're needed. Sure it happens after a while that some of the team is the dude who naturally is the guy who starts building the siege or whatever, but that's how it is.
People who play for the team to win and not for their own sake don't CARE about their score, as long as they feel they have done their part. For these people it doesn't freaking matter. For the players who play on pubs to see if they can improve their game sense and aim, a K:D score gives the feedback they need. And they're happy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> People that play to win also get their reward at the end of the round. Or if they don't, come to the ns forums and post at how much their teammates who are whoring kills (for the scoreboard lol) make them not be able to achieve their goal. Even though 1 & 2 have nothing to do with each other.
How this really relates to K:D scoreboard discussions I really have no clue though.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Taking away this information only alienates players, it doesn't bring in new ones.
Mh, I'm repeating myself from page 2. How come no one responded to that post? It basically sums up the entire against argument in a few freaking sentences.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well its only because nobody listens to euros <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
<!--quoteo(post=1673707:date=Mar 20 2008, 04:29 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Harimau @ Mar 20 2008, 04:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1673707"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That wasn't my intention, I assure you. No. I don't mind if points = credits or not. What I am against is the suggestion to have, instead of credits <i>{that represent a [non-reserved] portion of the team's pool}</i>, having personal res; however, that's not the issue I brought up. What I was addressing was the issue of how you earn res, the idea that, you do a lot of welding, you earn points/credits, sure; but you shouldn't get res for it because then it basically comes out of nowhere. You (the team) should only earn res from kills made and towers.
Think of it this way. In NS: If <b>your team</b> get res from towers, then of course that's alright. If <b>your team</b> gets res from aliens that the team's <i>members</i> have killed, that's fine too (of course there's still a debate over this, but let's ignore that for a moment). But would it make sense for <b>your team</b> to get res for its <i>members</i> building and welding?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ah... I totally see what you are saying now. Thanks for the clarification. I will have to rethink this through.
Comments
There seem to be two main arguments for keeping stats during play (apart from the "alienating score show-offs"-thing, which I will get to in due time). The kills/deaths helps estimate the res gained from kills, and it helps the commander not waste res on retards (to be blunt).
This first argument stands and falls with res for kills, and as the resource model is being reworked for NS2, using this as an argument for - or against - kill/death scores is somewhat of a gamble. I think I would be derailing the topic slightly if I started arguing for removing res for kills, so I'll join the x5 fan club and hope someone is listening. It's an old discussion, and there's plenty of forum to search for good points.
The second main point presented in favour of individual scores was the commanders need to be able to maximize the value of equipment issued by making sure it ends up in the right hands. As I understand the podcasts, the marines themselves will be in control of their equipment in NS2, rendering this argument pretty useless.
With RFK gone, and marines handling their own equipment, the scoreboard provides none to little useful information (Unless it is reconfigured to show equipment - lifeform, location or other some such). So, removing scores can be done without really inconveniencing anyone. Removing kills, deaths - everything really - is a great opportunity for natural selection to make a statement right of the bat. Welcome to Natural Selection, we don't care how many frags you get! Then what do you care about? Teamwork! See, here is your squad, go help them.
And even if res for kills is carried to NS2, I think the teamwork emphasis is worth the loss of information. By far.
As for alienating players with a sufficiently "competitive nature" to make a scoreboard absolutely utterly vital. **** them. I want them so alienated that they won't know which way earth is. I simply don't want them within a 500 ms ping radius of the servers I frequent. I would even refund their twenty bucks.
Teamplay should be emphasized above all, and I see removing kills/deaths/scores in general as a fine means to achieving this.
In short: <!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro-->yes<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->. Remove scores, remove all of them. Kills, deaths, arbitrary scores for buildings and welding, team totals, remove across the board. Bind tab to show the minimap as default, this gives you a far better idea of how your team is doing anyway.
Go communist dream! I chose you! Returning to a more rational state of mind: If I were to create NS2, I would have no scores during the games, none at all, and instead have private stats at the end of each round. Stuff like structures built, shots fired, aliens killed, numbers of deaths, time spent as lerk, the name of the player who used the word "lol" the most during the last round, and the amount of baloney one would need to actually recreate a 1:1 baloney model of a hive. (God knows we all want to do this...)
Edit: Fixed a few spelling errors, and introduced some new ones.
[citation needed] I must have missed that one.
People play NS for two reasons. One is to win, and the other is to shoot aliens or bite marines. But in general, thats in reverse order.
People play for the experience first and foremost, which would be classified as 'shooting aliens or biting marines'. Winning is a much longer term goal of individual players. It is definitely very important, but people don't just play to win; they play to have an awesome time for those 20-40 minutes until they win.
Removing the scoreboard would take away a lot of the long-term enjoyment and appreciation of this aspect of the game. If I just went on a rampage of killing 5 skulks, i'll be pumped, but I'll almost immediately check the scoreboard afterwards. Just like EVERYONE else. If there's no scoreboard, at that moment, my enjoyment will get a small 'oh' accompanied by a frown, because the game devs unnecessarily removed a simple info compiler.
Its INFORMATION. If you do well, you get a few small numbers as a pat on your back. If you don't do well, you can see the guys who do so you can know who to learn from.
And hell, the times when I'm not on top, but rather 0/10, I still look at the scoreboard a few times every life. Its a reminder that I can do better. And I always want that reminder there.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If your team gets res from aliens that the team's members have killed, that's fine too (of course there's still a debate over this, but let's ignore that for a moment). But would it make sense for your team to get res for its members building and welding?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To answer your question, no it wouldn't of course. (although there could be other effective means of an incentive to influence general player behavior in a public setting)
But there's a bigger problem here, you just tried to scuffle the RFK for marines being negligible under the rug in front of my omnipresent eyes in this forum. That ain't gonna fly buddy. How many years and probably ~50 posts from me alone are on this board's history where made strong arguments for removing RFK for marines? Too many. (Do pay note to how I keep on saying marines by the way. It has generally been agree this is a good idea for aliens and even makes some logical sense -- ie: "eating" the marine as food) In short until marines don't get RFK I think the system will always have issue surrounding rambos.
I just had to add that in. Too irksome for me to see ignored when you are talking about K:D and resources models.
/me resumes the topic and fades back into the shadows
Yes, this is where my own private world takes over. I foresee that RFK will not make it into NS2, but I base this on absolutely nothing. I think they should leave it out, I hope they do, but the closest bit of information on this thing I remember from the podcast is a reworking of the resource model. I hope this will be the end of RFK, but I am speculating.
1) Kill all aliens on your screen.
2) Weld phase gate.
3) Stop welding phase gate to shoot off the alien bdropping your teammate. (you DO have a LMG right?)
4) Weld phase gate.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1:1 marines do win games because they're the ones capping welding and building.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are they also capable of killing alien nodes? Are they capable of capping more than one node at a time? What about defending nodes? What about building phase gates by hives? Killing fades and lerks?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You need your pressure team making kills and your capping team building to win the game. An entire team 1:1 against skulks signifies a larger problem of teammates not covering each other.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or just having terrible aim. You can be the best team player, going around building all of the buildings and welding everything, you are still not going to win the game if you can't kill skulks. What are you going to do about fades? You will be a liability for the team.
<!--quoteo(post=1673762:date=Mar 20 2008, 05:20 PM:name=StixNStonz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(StixNStonz @ Mar 20 2008, 05:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1673762"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->People play NS for two reasons. One is to win, and the other is to shoot aliens or bite marines. But in general, thats in reverse order.
People play for the experience first and foremost, which would be classified as 'shooting aliens or biting marines'. Winning is a much longer term goal of individual players. It is definitely very important, but people don't just play to win; they play to have an awesome time for those 20-40 minutes until they win.
Removing the scoreboard would take away a lot of the long-term enjoyment and appreciation of this aspect of the game. If I just went on a rampage of killing 5 skulks, i'll be pumped, but I'll almost immediately check the scoreboard afterwards. Just like EVERYONE else. If there's no scoreboard, at that moment, my enjoyment will get a small 'oh' accompanied by a frown, because the game devs unnecessarily removed a simple info compiler.
Its INFORMATION. If you do well, you get a few small numbers as a pat on your back. If you don't do well, you can see the guys who do so you can know who to learn from.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
^
Err, no. The argument of whether RFK should stay or go, had nothing to do with my argument - hence the "let's ignore that for the moment" (wrong place, wrong time, and completely irrelevant). My argument was against earning res (or any "hard" currency to be spent on "tangible" equipment) for building and welding and such.
Personally I don't care, either way, whether RFK stays or not. But please, no RFS(upport), are we agreed?
As for the actual topic, Stix' and Domining's arguments are starting to sound.. more compelling? So I'm changing my opinion.
My opinion is that I don't have any opinion. I don't really care whether death count stays or goes, anymore. I just wanna shoot some ######ing skulks.
2) Weld phase gate.
3) Stop welding phase gate to shoot off the alien bdropping your teammate. (you DO have a LMG right?)
4) Weld phase gate.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, and the person covering you will likely get the kill because they don't have to switch to their LMG first.
<!--quoteo(post=1673806:date=Mar 20 2008, 11:29 PM:name=Domining)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Domining @ Mar 20 2008, 11:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1673806"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Are they also capable of killing alien nodes? Are they capable of capping more than one node at a time? What about defending nodes? What about building phase gates by hives? Killing fades and lerks?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's killing alien nodes, getting forward phases and fighting fades and lerks is what the pressure team is for. You need both groups of people performing their roles.
<!--quoteo(post=1673806:date=Mar 20 2008, 11:29 PM:name=Domining)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Domining @ Mar 20 2008, 11:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1673806"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Or just having terrible aim. You can be the best team player, going around building all of the buildings and welding everything, you are still not going to win the game if you can't kill skulks. What are you going to do about fades? You will be a liability for the team.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A marine should have good aim, that's a no brainer. He won't have a good score if he's the one welding, capping, etc. A marine performing those activities is just more vulnerable. I don't understand why you think everyone on your team has to have an uber score to win, that's not the case. It helps, but objectives are more important than kills. I still don't think death count is important and this is offtopic, but saying 1:1 marines don't help win games is just wrong.
People who play for the team to win and not for their own sake don't CARE about their score, as long as they feel they have done their part. For these people it doesn't freaking matter. For the players who play on pubs to see if they can improve their game sense and aim, a K:D score gives the feedback they need. And they're happy.
Taking away this information only alienates players, it doesn't bring in new ones.
Mh, I'm repeating myself from page 2. How come no one responded to that post? It basically sums up the entire against argument in a few freaking sentences.
People who play for the team to win and not for their own sake don't CARE about their score, as long as they feel they have done their part. For these people it doesn't freaking matter. For the players who play on pubs to see if they can improve their game sense and aim, a K:D score gives the feedback they need. And they're happy.
Taking away this information only alienates players, it doesn't bring in new ones.
Mh, I'm repeating myself from page 2. How come no one responded to that post? It basically sums up the entire against argument in a few freaking sentences.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
QFT
A) It doesn't take 1 second to get your LMG out.
B) Its probably going to take your buddy covering you more than 1 second to kill the skulk.
You have a chance at getting a kill for it. It'd be even better if assists were in.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's killing alien nodes, getting forward phases and fighting fades and lerks is what the pressure team is for. You need both groups of people performing their roles.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is no reason a player should always be pressure or capping in a public game. I have every player I know cap nodes at some point in a game.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A marine should have good aim, that's a no brainer. He won't have a good score if he's the one welding, capping, etc. A marine performing those activities is just more vulnerable. I don't understand why you think everyone on your team has to have an uber score to win, that's not the case. It helps, but objectives are more important than kills. I still don't think death count is important and this is offtopic, but saying 1:1 marines don't help win games is just wrong.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is no reason welding should cause you to have a lower score. Welders don't make you drop your primary guns or anything. It unfortunately does apply for capping nodes. (since you are capping, you are probably not moving towards the hive) Also, capping nodes is boring, I would like to see this fixed in NS2. And also, kills are objectives. Kills are also most important on your list of priorities most of the time due to the nature of the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1673877:date=Mar 21 2008, 05:24 PM:name=tjosan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tjosan @ Mar 21 2008, 05:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1673877"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I really don't see the issue here, honestly. In a good team people weld and build and shoot when they're needed. Sure it happens after a while that some of the team is the dude who naturally is the guy who starts building the siege or whatever, but that's how it is.
People who play for the team to win and not for their own sake don't CARE about their score, as long as they feel they have done their part. For these people it doesn't freaking matter. For the players who play on pubs to see if they can improve their game sense and aim, a K:D score gives the feedback they need. And they're happy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
People that play to win also get their reward at the end of the round. Or if they don't, come to the ns forums and post at how much their teammates who are whoring kills (for the scoreboard lol) make them not be able to achieve their goal. Even though 1 & 2 have nothing to do with each other.
How this really relates to K:D scoreboard discussions I really have no clue though.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Taking away this information only alienates players, it doesn't bring in new ones.
Mh, I'm repeating myself from page 2. How come no one responded to that post? It basically sums up the entire against argument in a few freaking sentences.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well its only because nobody listens to euros <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
No. I don't mind if points = credits or not. What I am against is the suggestion to have, instead of credits <i>{that represent a [non-reserved] portion of the team's pool}</i>, having personal res; however, that's not the issue I brought up. What I was addressing was the issue of how you earn res, the idea that, you do a lot of welding, you earn points/credits, sure; but you shouldn't get res for it because then it basically comes out of nowhere. You (the team) should only earn res from kills made and towers.
Think of it this way. In NS: If <b>your team</b> get res from towers, then of course that's alright. If <b>your team</b> gets res from aliens that the team's <i>members</i> have killed, that's fine too (of course there's still a debate over this, but let's ignore that for a moment). But would it make sense for <b>your team</b> to get res for its <i>members</i> building and welding?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ah... I totally see what you are saying now. Thanks for the clarification. I will have to rethink this through.