STATIC static defenses
EvilSmoo
Join Date: 2008-02-16 Member: 63662Members
Join Date: 2008-02-16 Member: 63662Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Guns guns and more guns</div><img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/hive5.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::hive::" border="0" alt="hive5.gif" /> <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/turret.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::sentry::" border="0" alt="turret.gif" />
Map-specific pre-placed turrets, that can be somehow disabled. Basically, mechanics to avoid early game rushes. I like stalemates, myself, but having ways to eventually end the map are necessary as well.
But if you were going to drop a team of marines into a partially hostile base, it would make sense to drop them next to some sort of defenses. And by the same token, the initial hive should probably grow a couple turrets, as its been there a while supposedly.
As far as implementation, have a mechanical/biological pipe (with several exposed and destroyable spots) from the start chamber to the nearest handy resource extractor, or a special generator specifically for that purpose. This would serve the purpose of having a couple nice turrets protecting the initial spawn, AND give a way to disable them, provided you can push forward to that point normally. The turrets should be more powerful than placeable turrets, but you can not replace them when they die.
Give the generator a LOT of HP and armor, and give the pipe less, but have the pipes repairable from death, while taking out the generator/extractor module is permanent. Killing that would simply shut down the turrets at the first hive/marine spawn, leaving only the turrets the players build. Now you should also be able to kill the turrets themselves, but it should be worth it to go for the more exposed generator itself, and basic marines/basic aliens should be ineffective for the task. A medium-level unit should be able to take out the pipe somehow, temporarily powering down the special turrets until it's repaired.
It would also add tactics... do you fortify the generator, taking away available resources for offensive turrets and defenses at the hive/base itself? If you do that, they might just shrug and kill the spawn turrets because it's easier, then ignore the massively fortified but useless generator around the corner. Or do you ignore the generator and fortify the base instead, and try to defend the generator with units, but not be too badly off if they manage to take it out? Decisions decisions.
Map-specific pre-placed turrets, that can be somehow disabled. Basically, mechanics to avoid early game rushes. I like stalemates, myself, but having ways to eventually end the map are necessary as well.
But if you were going to drop a team of marines into a partially hostile base, it would make sense to drop them next to some sort of defenses. And by the same token, the initial hive should probably grow a couple turrets, as its been there a while supposedly.
As far as implementation, have a mechanical/biological pipe (with several exposed and destroyable spots) from the start chamber to the nearest handy resource extractor, or a special generator specifically for that purpose. This would serve the purpose of having a couple nice turrets protecting the initial spawn, AND give a way to disable them, provided you can push forward to that point normally. The turrets should be more powerful than placeable turrets, but you can not replace them when they die.
Give the generator a LOT of HP and armor, and give the pipe less, but have the pipes repairable from death, while taking out the generator/extractor module is permanent. Killing that would simply shut down the turrets at the first hive/marine spawn, leaving only the turrets the players build. Now you should also be able to kill the turrets themselves, but it should be worth it to go for the more exposed generator itself, and basic marines/basic aliens should be ineffective for the task. A medium-level unit should be able to take out the pipe somehow, temporarily powering down the special turrets until it's repaired.
It would also add tactics... do you fortify the generator, taking away available resources for offensive turrets and defenses at the hive/base itself? If you do that, they might just shrug and kill the spawn turrets because it's easier, then ignore the massively fortified but useless generator around the corner. Or do you ignore the generator and fortify the base instead, and try to defend the generator with units, but not be too badly off if they manage to take it out? Decisions decisions.
Comments
Though I'm not a fan of early-game rushes, this would force the rushing team to think more. Perhaps the strength of the turret should also change based on the number of players. In any case, this could add some interesting things, but it would encourage base turtling at the end of the game as well, which could get annoying.
I presume that this is generated for the initial hive. What about other hives? What about relocating MS?
In general, though, I like the concept. Definitely helps solidify the game, and as an amateur map-maker I love new toys to experiment with. What about also adding the ability to upgrade said stuff as well?
The only thing I'd caution against is the strength. I like how you've balanced the generator as the central point and thus stronger but separated from the defenses themselves, which are weaker. However, how strong? The beauty of something like StarCraft is yes static defenses have a nice bonus. However, with the right counter, they are merely a nuisance. However, that counter might make you weaker to more mobile forces. Perfect example: Terran missile turrets. Cheat, effective, detects hidden stuff (like DTs) and usually a couple will scare away any air assault. But toss in a few Zealots or a Marine and it's useless, and while it can detect that nasty DT, it can't attack back.
So, make sure it has an Achilles heel.
<!--quoteo(post=1670758:date=Feb 18 2008, 10:52 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Harimau @ Feb 18 2008, 10:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1670758"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well ostensibly, the base turrets get eliminated (and cannot be rebuilt) at some point in the <b>middle-game</b>, if I understand it right.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I guess if you really wanted, on the building of the other hives, the base defenses could activate. But I figure at some point in the middle of the game, base defenses would become <b>comparatively</b> weak.
<!--quoteo(post=1670776:date=Feb 18 2008, 05:18 PM:name=spellman23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(spellman23 @ Feb 18 2008, 05:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1670776"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So, make sure it has an Achilles heel.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1670758:date=Feb 18 2008, 10:52 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Harimau @ Feb 18 2008, 10:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1670758"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->(and cannot be rebuilt)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
dunno how well that qualifies, but it's something like it.
I know I'm just nitpicking, but I just wanted to voice my reservations about an otherwise really cool idea.
Or say you find a broken down arms lab that has lvl 2 armor already researched and weld it back to health and poof you get armor 2. All of a sudden double becomes less and less of a concern for both teams early on in the game as new strategies hit the fan. I mean marines can still get it 5 mins in but how much of an edge does it give them if they get it 2nd minute.
The same however cannot be really said for aliens, as it wouldn't fit the story line. This is usually where I come to a blank is the balancing of these features. This I will present to you guys for some ideas. Even if it meant that a hive will randomly have one feature about it. Say one hive acts as an SC, and you know the marines are rushing, they think you have SC and all of a sudden a silent cloaked one hive rush takes out their whole team. Or they try a shotgun rush against a heavily self-healing hive, then what do they do. It just seems like if these hives are so much the basis of the alien structure they should have more than just a healing benefit.
These are just a few ideas, others would include a melding type of structure building. Like building an SC on top of an RT in a fashion that their hitpoints become the same. Not SC plus RT hitpoints but say a formula. When two structures are melded say its (X + Y) - 20% for the total hitpoints. With a total melding of 1 upgrade chamber with up to two RT/Hive/OC/? all together.
Another thing is currently OCs are only powerful in groups/with gorges. So we introduce melding with OCs. Say melding an MC with an OC makes the OC shoot faster as its adren recovers faster. Or an SC would make it have a focus type ability where it shoots slower but hits harder. Melding would be one way to offset the weldable upgrades.
I presume that this is generated for the initial hive. What about other hives? What about relocating MS?
In general, though, I like the concept. Definitely helps solidify the game, and as an amateur map-maker I love new toys to experiment with. What about also adding the ability to upgrade said stuff as well?
The only thing I'd caution against is the strength. I like how you've balanced the generator as the central point and thus stronger but separated from the defenses themselves, which are weaker. However, how strong? The beauty of something like StarCraft is yes static defenses have a nice bonus. However, with the right counter, they are merely a nuisance. However, that counter might make you weaker to more mobile forces. Perfect example: Terran missile turrets. Cheat, effective, detects hidden stuff (like DTs) and usually a couple will scare away any air assault. But toss in a few Zealots or a Marine and it's useless, and while it can detect that nasty DT, it can't attack back.
So, make sure it has an Achilles heel.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's the thing, it's not REQUIRED, it could just be a slight anti-rush.
If you relocate, you lose your turrets. Better luck holding the next one.
And there is a massive Achilles heel: external power. If you turtle TOO much, it leaves the power source exposed, and you're back to standard buildable turrets, and Onos/heavy rush time should take that down. Kill the power forever, or kill the conduit until it gets fixed, and the antirush turrets shut down. Alternately, just hit the antirush turrets really hard and they blow up too.
I was very careful to include the Achilles heel there. I'm not going to suggest something silly like "OMG TOO MANY RUSHES K LEZ PUT MASSIV TURETS AT THE BASE SO IT DUN DIE PLZ!!!!!!1@"
And yeah, it would have to be built in somewhat. It would be nice for rush-prone maps, mainly.
I thought of a way to make it more of a balancing thing. Say the first hive is an mc hive. But it will not tell you that it is. It just happens that everything in the affected area is silent. So for that early game SG rush listening for the hive is out of the question. It makes the comm have to resort to waypoints. Or if its SC then it cloaks everything in the surrounding area. You don't get all the benefits of having the actual chamber it just gives the immediate area a bonus of one type or another
MC - Silences hive, rt, and any surrounding units
SC - Cloaks hive, rt, and surrounding units
DC - Self Heals hive, rt and surrounding units
This causes marines to have to plan out how to take down hives also. If they have two hives and the first one is DC then an extra siege or two is required for any chance of sieging it while a shotgun rush is almost useless. But an MC hive will not let them know that an Onos is gestating in a hidden corner or even when it hatches. So that ninja will continue to build even though he is at a loss for any chance of getting that gate up.
Either way back to static anti-rush measures. Rushing has its place, maybe it isn't a good idea to build only one IP, maybe should stay behind and defend, not keeping up with the marines wave of unified destruction might be a bad idea. However a single turret or two of basic level would be find to start the most beginning rushes. Perhaps if each commander could place two initial turrets near spawn within a few minutes or they lose the ability to place them, and the turrets only last for a few minutes, they have weak batteries or don't have enough jelly?!?
Two turrets I believe should slow down most beginning game rushes, but not prevent them, maybe more for aliens, OC AI stinks.
If you rush the initial hive/comm, theres going to be more resistance than if you went after the extra turret power source.
If you go after the power source first, the hive will be easier, but your forces will be split, or it will just take you longer, as you have to kill a moderately tough generator.
If you go after the exposed power CABLE, the defenses go down too, but if a ninja goes and repairs it, they come back on. Ow. Not necessarily game over, but would be noticeable.
Tactics.