Woh I havent logged into my ns account in quite a long time!
Ok to the gentleman who mentioned audio as something which lends itself to improving the atmosphere i give you this question: How many competitive, long term Ns players do you know who play with map sound/trigger sounds on(is this the name for them?)? The fact of the matter is I would doubt any at all do.
This is simply because it would cause them to be at a disadvantage, less likely to hear the approaching skulk,rine,onos as adequately as they could with these sounds turned off.
I know for a fact when i used to play ns, the only ONLY thing I would listen for is the sounds of aliens or marines approaching my position.
I was thinking of perhaps some sort of comprimise between both, but I dont know what would be best for this.
For example, The motion tracker in Aliens. That is a loud beeping sound that indicates approacing beasties. It is a sound that is tense, rising in pitch and frequency.
Hypothetically What if, as several people have said before, there were indeed dark areas on a map, areas which marines have trouble seeing into, but if nightvision was available. The compromise of this NV may be that when its powered on it makes some kind of humming sound, ie a battery pack. This would mean that although it improves the visual range of the player, they must be extra careful, as they are far more likely to be ambushed from a direction they are not paying attention to.
What if the ground was to shake when an onos approaches? Or a fade could knock a marine clean into the air unless the marine is in HA? Or if marines were given a FLAMETHROWER(i am of course only saying this because the lighting for it would look beautiful. and maybe its been a dream of mine since the first version to toast some skulks <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />)
There are many things which can be put into the game which would change the atmospheric feel of the game as well as the gameplay. I may just be talking ###### here though, let me know <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/asrifle.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::asrifle::" border="0" alt="asrifle.gif" /> <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1670756:date=Feb 17 2008, 09:18 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Harimau @ Feb 17 2008, 09:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1670756"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And it's not as if gameplay and atmosphere are mutually exclusive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> QFT. False dichotomy FTL.
Athmosphere and gameplay aren't mutually exclusive, I agree. There is however a great gray area, where things that would improve the athmosphere for new players and a minority of long term players would decrease the playability for others - ie darkness. This is especially troublesome when you can make these dark spots brighter by changing user options.
What is important to keep a playerbase engaged beyond the initial honeymoon period is how the game plays in itself. This is where otherwise 'athmospheric' tools such as dark spots and masking sounds with ambience could interfere with gameplay. A balance need to be struck so that the game is both initially appealing to the masses, and engaging long term for the more dedicated part of the fan-base.
The longevity of a game and the quality of gameplay relies on both of these groups to be satisfied, and while the first group takes the game mostly at face value the second group will be more particular.
I agree. However NS started originally to do so tjosan, the only problem is the development team gave in to the demands of 'hardcore' players who ripped the diversity out of the game.
'Darkness' or what would better be called creative shadowing and lighting creates a third dimension to playing if done well, the main problem seems to be players scared of adding some depth and thought process in to the way they play their game if it was to have more atmosphere and a truely more 'real' setting.
Then we have different ideas of what constitutes good in-game conditions for playing.
I also believe there' too much focus on shadowing as an instrument in the NS community. There are other ways to reach the same goal without alienating an integral part of the community of any successful game.
Designers do tend to have different idea's from the hardcore player tjosan. We strive to make something different and new and you guys fear the change and enjoy the simple way of playing which you are used. It would be nice to see either both of these elements in seperate parts of NS2 or if constellation do get access to playing a beta in a year or so from now, we compare the two in-game <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> Either way right now I don't see either of us budging on our opinions <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
I disagree. Silent hill is probably one of the scariest games I've ever played, and the only light source throughout most of that game is your stupid pocket flashlight. If you're walking through a corridor or something and the lights are just out, and you can't see anything except what your flashlight can illuminate, it's pretty immersive.
There are times though, when complete darkness is irritating, like in vents as a skulk. I can't remember how many times I got lost trying to get through a vent <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/nerd-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::nerdy::" border="0" alt="nerd-fix.gif" />
<!--quoteo(post=1670779:date=Feb 18 2008, 07:36 PM:name=Fletcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Fletcher @ Feb 18 2008, 07:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1670779"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How many competitive, long term Ns players do you know who play with map sound/trigger sounds on(is this the name for them?)? The fact of the matter is I would doubt any at all do.
This is simply because it would cause them to be at a disadvantage, less likely to hear the approaching skulk,rine,onos as adequately as they could with these sounds turned off.
I know for a fact when i used to play ns, the only ONLY thing I would listen for is the sounds of aliens or marines approaching my position.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't blame competitive players for turning off the ambient sound in NS. Because the ambient sound volume was not tied to the game volume, it was played at full volume all the time and was simply too loud. I believe if sound is properly designed and implemented (just like the "atmosphere" of environments) it will have no adverse effects on the game at a competitive level. That's what it's all about, really - good design.
So it's not a question of whether or not it's <b><i>possible</i></b> to create a compelling experience while maintaining competitive viability. It is possible. The only question is <b><i>can</i></b> we do it? Do we have the talent? I'd like to think so, but only time will tell.
schkorpioI can mspaintJoin Date: 2003-05-23Member: 16635Members
i think that ambeint sound being too loud in some areas is good - like an engine room or something, you want it to be loud, its part of the atmosphere, but it also ads strategic depth, the players need to rely other things rather than just hearing skulk footsteps. the whole being able to hear through walls is a bit of a wall hack anyway when you think about it.
I have no idea why they were removed from caged (bast I get <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> ), these doors force the marines into a closed area where the aliens could have the advantage if the door is closed and the marine team is trying to escape -> Using the map to your advantage to ambush the enemy<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->*<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
sounds should be present and not only for atmosphere, but for gameplay as well. Some sounds should force the aliens to use ambush techniques or the marines to stay close together. Not being able to hear everything the enemy team does (without sennheiser headphones) is good and adds to both gameplay and atmosphere.
Most statements in here about atmosphere not adding to gameplay or even interfearing with gameplay are, dare I say, false. They are 100% interrelated with each other if tested and used correctly. The only problem with NS1 and goldSRC is that the engine can't keep everything the player does on the client side in check. I for one hope that source will force players to play the map as the mapper intended them to be played (no outside tinkering allowed, also I dread lua for this very reason)
---- Most of the "atmosphere" was removed because of the engine not able to handle them and as a result causing fps stutter and net lag (read: way to many runtime entities). However, it is still possible to add these rendering effects without causing those problems, but removing them was easier/faster I guess <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->*<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> Valve made a statement about players that should be forced to fight players and not the map (so ehm why is there an engineer class? J/K ). This holds some truth for TF2 as that game is all about players vs players. However dare I go against the <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro--><b>almighty valve</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> and say that the map definately has something to do with this, turret placement (hard to hit with stickies/rockets) and small long hallways making it harder for the spy to sneak behind enemy lines. I could go on but I won't. For NS this statement is false, as the marines have the ability to weld and close/open areas, aliens and marines build defensive/offensive structures. Those very features adds the map itself to the equasion of gameplay.
In my map I even went a further step to include lockable resnodes and a weldable one. These objects are triggered by players. The lockable resnodes in the hives give the aliens an extra map interactive feature and make the locked node unsiegeable if not unlocked first by the marines. I added this because the maps is big and this addition gives the alien a little bit more security, since their buildings don't do much anymore in NS it's current state to hold areas and the marines have <b>a lot</b> of weldpoints, to shape and bend the map in their favour.
Meh TLDR; applies for anyone who didn't want to read it
Personally I hope to see all the atmosphere that was in NS when it was released. I miss alot of the doors and smoke and steam and such from ealier map sets. I know the game tends to run a lot better now, hopefully it will run as well with source and allow mappers to do as they like.
<!--quoteo(post=1670937:date=Feb 19 2008, 06:08 PM:name=schkorpio)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(schkorpio @ Feb 19 2008, 06:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1670937"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i think that ambient sound <b>being too loud</b> in some areas <b>is good</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> "<i>too</i> loud" "good" contradictory
i'd like some more... contrast, in certain areas. this would have to do with both lighting and skins/textures, so for example if there's an alien in a marine base, it should stick out like a sore thumb. (lack of?) camouflage, i suppose.
Comments
Ok to the gentleman who mentioned audio as something which lends itself to improving the atmosphere i give you this question: How many competitive, long term Ns players do you know who play with map sound/trigger sounds on(is this the name for them?)? The fact of the matter is I would doubt any at all do.
This is simply because it would cause them to be at a disadvantage, less likely to hear the approaching skulk,rine,onos as adequately as they could with these sounds turned off.
I know for a fact when i used to play ns, the only ONLY thing I would listen for is the sounds of aliens or marines approaching my position.
I was thinking of perhaps some sort of comprimise between both, but I dont know what would be best for this.
For example, The motion tracker in Aliens. That is a loud beeping sound that indicates approacing beasties. It is a sound that is tense, rising in pitch and frequency.
Hypothetically
What if, as several people have said before, there were indeed dark areas on a map, areas which marines have trouble seeing into, but if nightvision was available. The compromise of this NV may be that when its powered on it makes some kind of humming sound, ie a battery pack. This would mean that although it improves the visual range of the player, they must be extra careful, as they are far more likely to be ambushed from a direction they are not paying attention to.
What if the ground was to shake when an onos approaches? Or a fade could knock a marine clean into the air unless the marine is in HA? Or if marines were given a FLAMETHROWER(i am of course only saying this because the lighting for it would look beautiful. and maybe its been a dream of mine since the first version to toast some skulks <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />)
There are many things which can be put into the game which would change the atmospheric feel of the game as well as the gameplay. I may just be talking ###### here though, let me know <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/asrifle.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::asrifle::" border="0" alt="asrifle.gif" /> <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
QFT. False dichotomy FTL.
What is important to keep a playerbase engaged beyond the initial honeymoon period is how the game plays in itself. This is where otherwise 'athmospheric' tools such as dark spots and masking sounds with ambience could interfere with gameplay. A balance need to be struck so that the game is both initially appealing to the masses, and engaging long term for the more dedicated part of the fan-base.
The longevity of a game and the quality of gameplay relies on both of these groups to be satisfied, and while the first group takes the game mostly at face value the second group will be more particular.
'Darkness' or what would better be called creative shadowing and lighting creates a third dimension to playing if done well, the main problem seems to be players scared of adding some depth and thought process in to the way they play their game if it was to have more atmosphere and a truely more 'real' setting.
I also believe there' too much focus on shadowing as an instrument in the NS community. There are other ways to reach the same goal without alienating an integral part of the community of any successful game.
I disagree. Silent hill is probably one of the scariest games I've ever played, and the only light source throughout most of that game is your stupid pocket flashlight. If you're walking through a corridor or something and the lights are just out, and you can't see anything except what your flashlight can illuminate, it's pretty immersive.
There are times though, when complete darkness is irritating, like in vents as a skulk. I can't remember how many times I got lost trying to get through a vent <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/nerd-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::nerdy::" border="0" alt="nerd-fix.gif" />
This is simply because it would cause them to be at a disadvantage, less likely to hear the approaching skulk,rine,onos as adequately as they could with these sounds turned off.
I know for a fact when i used to play ns, the only ONLY thing I would listen for is the sounds of aliens or marines approaching my position.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't blame competitive players for turning off the ambient sound in NS. Because the ambient sound volume was not tied to the game volume, it was played at full volume all the time and was simply too loud. I believe if sound is properly designed and implemented (just like the "atmosphere" of environments) it will have no adverse effects on the game at a competitive level. That's what it's all about, really - good design.
So it's not a question of whether or not it's <b><i>possible</i></b> to create a compelling experience while maintaining competitive viability. It is possible. The only question is <b><i>can</i></b> we do it? Do we have the talent? I'd like to think so, but only time will tell.
the whole being able to hear through walls is a bit of a wall hack anyway when you think about it.
<b><!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro-->doors:<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b>
I have no idea why they were removed from caged (bast I get <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> ), these doors force the marines into a closed area where the aliens could have the advantage if the door is closed and the marine team is trying to escape -> Using the map to your advantage to ambush the enemy<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->*<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro--><b>shadows:</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Not litterly from NS docs, but a quite similar quote:
"alien areas should be shadowy/moody and marine unfriendly"
"marine areas should have lots of light and be alien unfriendly"
Good ideas and add to strategic depth and gameplay, but alas goldSRC can't keep these client side values in check
<b><!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro-->sounds:<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b>
sounds should be present and not only for atmosphere, but for gameplay as well. Some sounds should force the aliens to use ambush techniques or the marines to stay close together. Not being able to hear everything the enemy team does (without sennheiser headphones) is good and adds to both gameplay and atmosphere.
Most statements in here about atmosphere not adding to gameplay or even interfearing with gameplay are, dare I say, false. They are 100% interrelated with each other if tested and used correctly. The only problem with NS1 and goldSRC is that the engine can't keep everything the player does on the client side in check. I for one hope that source will force players to play the map as the mapper intended them to be played (no outside tinkering allowed, also I dread lua for this very reason)
----
Most of the "atmosphere" was removed because of the engine not able to handle them and as a result causing fps stutter and net lag (read: way to many runtime entities). However, it is still possible to add these rendering effects without causing those problems, but removing them was easier/faster I guess <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->*<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Valve made a statement about players that should be forced to fight players and not the map (so ehm why is there an engineer class? J/K ). This holds some truth for TF2 as that game is all about players vs players. However dare I go against the <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro--><b>almighty valve</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> and say that the map definately has something to do with this, turret placement (hard to hit with stickies/rockets) and small long hallways making it harder for the spy to sneak behind enemy lines. I could go on but I won't. For NS this statement is false, as the marines have the ability to weld and close/open areas, aliens and marines build defensive/offensive structures. Those very features adds the map itself to the equasion of gameplay.
In my map I even went a further step to include lockable resnodes and a weldable one. These objects are triggered by players. The lockable resnodes in the hives give the aliens an extra map interactive feature and make the locked node unsiegeable if not unlocked first by the marines. I added this because the maps is big and this addition gives the alien a little bit more security, since their buildings don't do much anymore in NS it's current state to hold areas and the marines have <b>a lot</b> of weldpoints, to shape and bend the map in their favour.
Meh TLDR; applies for anyone who didn't want to read it
Read Thaldy's comments for the TLDR? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
Also the door thing goes for Eclipse too, they removed the doors on that which were good too.
"<i>too</i> loud" "good" contradictory
i'd like some more... contrast, in certain areas. this would have to do with both lighting and skins/textures, so for example if there's an alien in a marine base, it should stick out like a sore thumb. (lack of?) camouflage, i suppose.