How different should NS2 be to NS1
invader Zim
Join Date: 2007-09-20 Member: 62376Members
Join Date: 2007-09-20 Member: 62376Members
<div class="IPBDescription">the wave of change</div>Theres alot of discussion across the forum about the degree of change between to too games. Some people recon that NS1 is very near perfection and they dont want to see the game they love disapear. But then theres all the different changes people are suggesting. I havnt played TFC2 so i cant comment on the degree of change in that game. But when CSS was launched i was very dissapionted in how similar it was to the original cs. It was almost not worht upgrading. Ok the engine was much better and it has grown on me but my initatial impressions were one of dissapiontment. I can say the same with unreal tornament 2003, it was just an engine upgrade of UT.
What precentage change would you like to see to the game, how radical should change be, does ns need to evolve as a game to compete in the current gaming market or is it already timeless?
What precentage change would you like to see to the game, how radical should change be, does ns need to evolve as a game to compete in the current gaming market or is it already timeless?
Comments
new alien evolutions (change onos please!) , most importantly, different maps..
if its one thing which will dissapoint me most it will be just another remake of ns_bast etc.. if anything i would like to see a different map altogether, and if you want to bring in ns_bast etc, i really really hope it will be larger and more varied than they currently are.. more spice and sugar.. less pepper and salt.
ns2 is supposed to be like how hl1 changed to hl2, its still the same game, but with new gfx, new monsters and surroundings, and better gameplay..
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This feedback has reaffirmed my belief that NS2 should be roughly 1/3 the same, 1/3 improved and 1/3 new. That's the general rule of thumb developers tend to use when creating successful sequels and I think that goes for us too.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We have no interest in remaking the same game.
We have no interest in remaking the same game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->81% of our players are between the ages of 16 and 25 and 98% are male I had thought our player base was a little more diverse then this, but I guess I'm not too surprised. NS is not the place to find your future girlfriend, that's for sure!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
HAHAHAHAHAHA omg.... sorry i had to say this...
but i met my bf on ns and weve been together 4 yrs now because of ns ! LOL
-3 starting hive locations (have fun doing anything else and keeping the same quality of gameplay, especially from a mappers perspective)
-Resource nodes (or things to cap that give you resources), with approx. 10 throughout the map
-skulk vs marine basic gameplay. Charlie mentioned how he wanted to 'fix this', but i cant imagine how that could possibly happen. Unless you want to turn this into [Mechwarrior vs Alien Queen] Selection, you need to keep skulks as the base unit. I dont understand why people might think this is a bad thing. Skulks are amazingly balanced against marines, and the early game is a great part of NS because of it. Sure, a lot of people play the dumb skulk and just run at the marines, but that gives the marines the balanced experience. Just like how marines who run through doors without checking the ceiling, gives aliens the balanced experience. If all skulks hid well, and all marines were very careful, it would be an intense start to a great game. If the game started as HA vs Fades, it would mean nothing to lose your HA or Fade.
Nice little rant.
I guess that sums up the 'basics'. NS has come such a long way in 4 years, and it has been evolving the entire time. Its an amazing game that never got the attention it deserved. Upgrade a lot, but dont change the basics, and get it out of Mod Status. Heck, if NS even got into My Games, the community would probably have been 10X as big right now.
new alien evolutions (change onos please!) , most importantly, different maps..
if its one thing which will dissapoint me most it will be just another remake of ns_bast etc.. if anything i would like to see a different map altogether, and if you want to bring in ns_bast etc, i really really hope it will be larger and more varied than they currently are.. more spice and sugar.. less pepper and salt.
ns2 is supposed to be like how hl1 changed to hl2, its still the same game, but with new gfx, new monsters and surroundings, and better gameplay..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
why change onos?
and I agree, I hope they implement all of the good (popular) ideas that the community has shared, such as welding. Im pretty sure you guys got that from the community.
the balance in the current version is almost to perfect (provided the players are not complete idiots <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />) so imho tremendous playtesting would be required to achieve this with big changes.
i have no idea how much coding (and artwork/modeling) would it take to release a completely identical version of NS with the graphics of NS:S (maybe as a community project? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />) but i think a lot of us would be happy with it! xD
lol perhaps its time for an NS wedding <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
can i be an onos brides maid?
and I agree, I hope they implement all of the good (popular) ideas that the community has shared, such as welding. Im pretty sure you guys got that from the community.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
because of all of the aliens in the kharaa the least alien one is the onos, IMO it should be the most fearsome and alienated type there is.. but instead it looks like a skinned mutated cow...
when a new player enters the game i want to hear when they see an onos "OMG WHAT THE HELL IS THAT BIG UGLY THING"
currently all you hear from new players is "OMG A MUTANT COW JUST ATTACKED ME"
mutant cow... mutant cow.... not onos.. cow...
it shouldnt be related to a human creature, its way tooo human like.. it needs to be alienated more and more scary and threating than a cow.
when a new player enters the game i want to hear when they see an onos "OMG WHAT THE HELL IS THAT BIG UGLY THING"
currently all you hear from new players is "OMG A MUTANT COW JUST ATTACKED ME"
mutant cow... mutant cow.... not onos.. cow...
it shouldnt be related to a human creature, its way tooo human like.. it needs to be alienated more and more scary and threating than a cow.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
All the aliens use to be scarier back in 1.04 when the maps were darker... or maybe I wasn't desensitized by media then
when a new player enters the game i want to hear when they see an onos "OMG WHAT THE HELL IS THAT BIG UGLY THING"
currently all you hear from new players is "OMG A MUTANT COW JUST ATTACKED ME"
mutant cow... mutant cow.... not onos.. cow...
it shouldnt be related to a human creature, its way tooo human like.. it needs to be alienated more and more scary and threating than a cow.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ahh I thought you meant to change his attacks and stuff, but yeah I think the onos needs to lose the utters and make his hair spikes ocasionally kill off a marine that you would kill anyways by stabing him with your horn. and than the hair can wip his corpse across the room. Onos roar!!!111
I'd describe an onos as a rhino/elephant mix. Thats a far cry from a 'mutant cow'.
I'd describe an onos as a rhino/elephant mix. Thats a far cry from a 'mutant cow'.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
every game i played newbies related the onos as a cow. it looks like a mutated cow. I believe it needs a good revamp.. its not scary thats for sure..
Wasnt scared for a seacond.
I wanna hear someone say they pissed them selves when they see the onos in NS2
If you actually want to scare people, get more animations, and gorier (sp?) animations. Lets see the marine ACTUALLY get eaten by the onos, with his little boots kicking until they disappear. Lets see a marine have a horn shoved through his chest, and maybe even stay there as a ragdoll for a second before being flicked off.
Its mentioned in the Mapping Guidelines that the game shouldnt be gory or too scary. Perhaps the devs should consider upping this a notch.
and in HL2 they made the gore more realistic, why not make it like HL2 gore where theres small blood splaters on both alien and marine side, green blood for alien red for marine.
Im not saying SCARY GORE rated M fest. Im saying the notch needs to be raised just a little.
i think one of the bigest things for kharra is going to be variable movment speed, imagine a onos that moves as fast as a sulk on the first 5 steps, giveing it that rapid lunge around a courner, or a slow gorge that evently gains max speed and out runs a marine.
sulks that are 2-3X faster off the mark for hte first two steps, exspecaly if htey use the jump off a wall or ceiling surface. then they slow to there normal speed, but over a distance of 12 more feet gain a much faster speed than normal.
now you have kharra have to work at a few things, and marines that are ######ing them selves.
courner work ambushing recive a major boost, imagine a fade that accumulates so much speed he has a little trouble slowing down, not for courners but when he wants to stop on a dim, not take a courner like casie stoner, but stop dead in his tracks to regen hes going to slip and slide a bit, so it canhave balanceing points, i dont think a sulk should slip and slide with those big spikes on certaing textures but if it's a ship hull of strong flat thick steel sure why not it would be like walking on ice
now a onos can do courner work but it's still a slow beast with out its charge if it's joging down a coridor.
gorge can escape if hes has a heads up on a marines, say from parasite or scent, if the gorge gets the head start he should beable to get away, not have a marine bunny hope after him even tho he has celerity and knife him. so the gorge has some arthritis and takes him a bit to get his joints and ligiments warmed up, you would be arching after all that buidling and carrying around of all that bile and res, G's you back would prolly be out like a pregnant woman, but get warmed up and your still a effective evolution the hive has created instead of the reject its trying to smoother.
lerk glide mode anyone lerks fast of the jump so they to can help ambush perhaps jumping from a vent with out flaping with space bar will also glide a silent falling fast melee killer, give it backwards and straff fly. now it can dodge bullets liek it used to instead of being stuck only always flying forwards like it is now.
so suddenly your giant cow doesnt get seen as a giant cow, the only thing you see is a humble map then instantly before any normal human can react you see teeth and then onos intestines, as you step thru a door way. your mates are packing them sleves cos what ever jstu draged you aroudn hte courner has disapeared back around that courner, where are you left now. go chase it?, its on a courner, it can step out and gore you all before you would have time to react? well its now or never cos if it kills that marine it is capable of swallowing another one of you.
If you actually want to scare people, get more animations, and gorier (sp?) animations. Lets see the marine ACTUALLY get eaten by the onos, with his little boots kicking until they disappear. Lets see a marine have a horn shoved through his chest, and maybe even stay there as a ragdoll for a second before being flicked off.
Its mentioned in the Mapping Guidelines that the game shouldnt be gory or too scary. Perhaps the devs should consider upping this a notch.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
in the n2 concept picture it doesnt look scary to me.. it just looks like another cow.. the eyes may be threatening, but id be more afraid of a barking dog than a charging onos.
size isnt everything, and sure there may be a few attacks which may add to more effects, but it doesnt mean it makes something scary.
besides, the whole onos is anatomically incorrect, it has an elbow bend in its knee on its front legs, its head cant go above its armpit without it stretching the skin and pushing its headbone into its back, the running animation is impossible with the placement of the shoulder horn because its tearing the skin. And everytime it takes a stride its stabbing its own legs with its incorrect elbow bend in its knee forearms...
dont tell me its supposed to run like that because if you look at the skin its actually a knee bend you see on its forelegs.. not an elbow bend...
the mouth looks like its supposed to be flapping because there is no actual indication there is a bone connecting the lower jaw to the skull unless its mouth is closed, but even then it indicates its mouth is supposed to be clenched closed the whole time with the skinning details..
thats alot of anatomical flaws that need fixing to increase its realistic and more threatening look.. but if anything i think it really needs a good revamp to something more threatening..
hell switch it to the very first onos concept and ill be happy, that thing looks scarier than this one..
this topic seems a little pointless to me, you already know most of what'll be new (infestation, dynamic maps, lua, game types, marine aesthetics, alien abilities). UWE's â…“ new, â…“ old, â…“ improved seems perfect.
new alien evolutions (change onos please!) , most importantly, different maps..
if its one thing which will dissapoint me most it will be just another remake of ns_bast etc.. if anything i would like to see a different map altogether, and if you want to bring in ns_bast etc, i really really hope it will be larger and more varied than they currently are.. more spice and sugar.. less pepper and salt.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There are going to be plenty of new levels for NS2 that take full advantage of the Source engine. All models and textures will be more detailed than NS1 so these aesthetical issues you have mentioned should be fixed.
<!--quoteo(post=1656238:date=Oct 16 2007, 09:49 AM:name=kyliegirl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(kyliegirl @ Oct 16 2007, 09:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1656238"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->it shouldnt be related to a human creature, its way tooo human like.. it needs to be alienated more and more scary and threating than a cow.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A cow isn't human btw. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
lol i dont hate it, it just bothers me that it looks so human compared to the other aliens. It resembles too much of earthlike animals.
on another note, I would like to see some other things in ns2 compared to ns1..
- more hive locations to randomise the areas more instead of point 1-2-3 ..
- make the hive blend with its surroundings and possibly create a hive mind ability, so when the hive spawns it begins a mass growth of infestation and then a few thin films of walls which can be destroyed protect the main hive center
- create more threatening offence chambers
- let all chambers BLEND with infestation and the ground, dont make it look popped on.
- ceiling turrets, ceiling offence chambers
- possibly new kharaa to increase the choice of aliens allowed. It can be a little boring having the same sorts all the time.. I would like to see a medium unit to counter the new flamethrower. Marines have alot of choices of weapons, i would like to have a few more choices to alien types to evolve into with different abilities, hopefully it can be balanced and will work out..
- Realistic anatomical models ( i would like to see the skulsk foreleg elbows fixed to just one elbow and not two <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> )
- a different model for turrets, mines, observatory etc. They are too boxy atm, and the turrets dont look very futuristic.. something futuristic like how the hl2 turrets are would be cool, where marines can actually move the turrets around to place them in certain locations, but if they are placed too far from the turret factory they shut down (balance it so marines dont run around with turrets everywhere)
- interactive structures, tables barrels, wood, metal.. anything. (I am going to have to carry a barrel and bonk a gorge on the head a few times.. i like that idea... )
these are all significant changes, but i think it would bring out alot into ns2 apart from *go there build this kill that*.
- make the hive blend with its surroundings and possibly create a hive mind ability, so when the hive spawns it begins a mass growth of infestation and then a few thin films of walls which can be destroyed protect the main hive center
- create more threatening offence chambers
- let all chambers BLEND with infestation and the ground, dont make it look popped on.
- ceiling turrets, ceiling offence chambers
- possibly new kharaa to increase the choice of aliens allowed. It can be a little boring having the same sorts all the time.. I would like to see a medium unit to counter the new flamethrower. Marines have alot of choices of weapons, i would like to have a few more choices to alien types to evolve into with different abilities, hopefully it can be balanced and will work out..
- Realistic anatomical models ( i would like to see the skulsk foreleg elbows fixed to just one elbow and not two <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> )
- a different model for turrets, mines, observatory etc. They are too boxy atm, and the turrets dont look very futuristic.. something futuristic like how the hl2 turrets are would be cool, where marines can actually move the turrets around to place them in certain locations, but if they are placed too far from the turret factory they shut down (balance it so marines dont run around with turrets everywhere)
- interactive structures, tables barrels, wood, metal.. anything. (I am going to have to carry a barrel and bonk a gorge on the head a few times.. i like that idea... )
these are all significant changes, but i think it would bring out alot into ns2 apart from *go there build this kill that*.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
nice ideas, but I think giving marines the ability to pick up turrets will give n00bs and NSPlayer's a field day. Maybe commander can give them special priveliges to do some of these things.
imagine:
Com places a TF near a heavily defended corner...
places 3 turrets out of LOS of the alien defense...
3 marines grab a turret, strafe around the corner...
blast the crap out of everything with the turrets...
strafe back, weld...
rinse and repeat.
imagine:
Com places a TF near a heavily defended corner...
places 3 turrets out of LOS of the alien defense...
3 marines grab a turret, strafe around the corner...
blast the crap out of everything with the turrets...
strafe back, weld...
rinse and repeat.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
make them disable when picked up. so they turn off auto when picked up and have a 2 second restart to turn back on after being placed back on the ground. let alone make them able to be knocked over and there ya go..
There are how many alien classes right now? 5? And how many of them are alike in any way...?
Take every other class-based game besides TF (i'll get to that in a second). I.e., the Battlefields, all sorts of mods. And they all have 5 or less classes. There's always a 'main assault' which just has a generic machinegun and all-around versatility; a scout/sniper type; a support type; and a medic. 95% of all class based games use this now-generic setup.
Then you have Team Fortress. Its amazing how they created the game, because its actually a REALLY OLD design. It was the first online game i ever played, back when it was released for the original Quake. And it still has all the same characteristics, now minus the primed grenades.
TF is a thing of beauty. Nine classes. Nine! And they're all so well balanced (or are now at least... the Pyro and Scout were horribly underused in previous versions due to bad balancing).
But, still, aside from armor and hp (which themselves only have a few classes which are distinct from the others), the classes only differ from each other by basically the main weapon. Yes, the Spy is vastly different. The engineer, well, i'd say that his Turret is his main weapon, but in the new version he can do other things too, so he's kinda different. And the medic can revive, and the demo trap.
So 1/9 classes is really different, 1/9 is fairly different, and 2/9 have somewhat different gameplay abilities. The rest are still just shoot-and-kill.
Then we move to NS. 5 different alien classes. TOTALLY different from each other. One walks on walls, one flies, one teleports, and two walk 'normally'; except the two that walk are at completely opposite ends of the spectrum, plus the smaller one is the *only* class that builds.
All have a basic attack, but that is not what separates them; its actually their only real similarity. Its in the secondary attacks that they all become vastly different. Skulks parasite... I think we all know how deeply tactical and important this ability is when used properly. They also gain leap and xeno, both of which really change the game when they're gained.
Lerks. Whats the difference between a game with no lerk, vs a game with a really good adren lerk? An area-of-effect weapon that can fill entire rooms, and often makes otherwise-rushing marines instead turn around and keep running backwards, as the gas keeps creeping towards them. And then Umbra. Jesus, Umbra. When used properly, its insanely powerful, and can mean the victory by itself. Primal is phenomenal too, but sadly so underused.
Fade. A Fade IS Blink. A fade without blink is a cooked, delicious steak for the marines to scarf up with delight. And what happens to a fade when he gets Meta? And Acid is just hilarious ownage.
Onos. Devour, anyone? How about Stomp, that never affects games, right? And Charge got the huge boost recently...
Take all those dynamics, and add in Upgrades. Start with a choice of 3 upgrades within one of 3 slots. And then, a second choice of 3 upgrades within one of the other two slots. Whats the difference between a 2 hive skulk who has Silence and Redempt, or Adren and Regen, or Celerity and Cara? Let alone tossing SC into any of those.
This has turned into another huge rant. Basically what I'm saying, is that it took all these years to get to where NS is. And NS is goddamn phenomenal. IMO NS1 should be considered the 'gameplay testing phase' for NS2; they can add in some awesome new things, but a whole new species could really mess things up. If they do it, and do it well, it blows my mind how good NS can be. But if NS2 was exactly NS1 with all sorts of visual upgrades, physics upgrades, whatever, then I would still be so excited for it.