Somewhat Massive Boot Issues
NeonSpyder
"Das est NTLDR?" Join Date: 2003-07-03 Member: 17913Members
"Das est NTLDR?" Join Date: 2003-07-03 Member: 17913Members
in Off-Topic
<div class="IPBDescription">Ubuntu experts please apply!</div>Okay, right. So. Here goes.
(The Story So Far. Skip down to the next section if you don't care)
In my enthusiasm to get a dual-boot Ubuntu/WinXP system set up I may have inadvertently ****ed up several important things, such as being able to boot from the hard drive. My system USED to be a Win98/WinXP dual boot and prompted me to chose between the two OS at startup, and the two OS's were on two separate partitions of the same harddrive with Win98 apparently being my active drive.
Somehow, I thought it would be a good idea to delete the Win98 partition and reformat it into a linux-based ext3 file system. This was my first mistake.
My second mistake was rebooting my computer.
(Okay, the the real problem is here now)
When I attempt to boot my computer it gives me a disk error. I assume this to be because the win98 partition was doing some kind of magic that I set it up to do when I initially setup the system that I have forgotten about in the meantime. I am making this post from an Ubuntu LiveCD (7.04). I can see via this live cd that my windows xp partition (the one with all my stuff) is still fine and dandy and readable from within linux, so I figure I didn't **** it all up, and my data's still good to go.
What I plan on doing is before doing anything more to back up the entire disk. Before you start screaming, I've already backed up all my IMPORTANT stuff, just not all the other stuff. However, I figure that the odds of total cascade failure of the drive to be more likely at this point, then when I had originally made my backing up.
What I beg of you, humble and grand Off-Topic section, is a little advice on how to turn my existing situation from <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" /> into <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> via the ubuntu Live CD and somehow making my existing winxp partition bootable. Or something.
<3 O-T BFF!
(The Story So Far. Skip down to the next section if you don't care)
In my enthusiasm to get a dual-boot Ubuntu/WinXP system set up I may have inadvertently ****ed up several important things, such as being able to boot from the hard drive. My system USED to be a Win98/WinXP dual boot and prompted me to chose between the two OS at startup, and the two OS's were on two separate partitions of the same harddrive with Win98 apparently being my active drive.
Somehow, I thought it would be a good idea to delete the Win98 partition and reformat it into a linux-based ext3 file system. This was my first mistake.
My second mistake was rebooting my computer.
(Okay, the the real problem is here now)
When I attempt to boot my computer it gives me a disk error. I assume this to be because the win98 partition was doing some kind of magic that I set it up to do when I initially setup the system that I have forgotten about in the meantime. I am making this post from an Ubuntu LiveCD (7.04). I can see via this live cd that my windows xp partition (the one with all my stuff) is still fine and dandy and readable from within linux, so I figure I didn't **** it all up, and my data's still good to go.
What I plan on doing is before doing anything more to back up the entire disk. Before you start screaming, I've already backed up all my IMPORTANT stuff, just not all the other stuff. However, I figure that the odds of total cascade failure of the drive to be more likely at this point, then when I had originally made my backing up.
What I beg of you, humble and grand Off-Topic section, is a little advice on how to turn my existing situation from <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" /> into <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> via the ubuntu Live CD and somehow making my existing winxp partition bootable. Or something.
<3 O-T BFF!
Comments
for instructions:
<a href="http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=224351" target="_blank">thread on ubuntuforums.org</a>
EDIT:you may also need this post to get windows running as i didn't actually read the full post above.
<a href="https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/grub/+bug/21175/comments/7" target="_blank">clicky</a>
let me know how it goes.
Not sure if Ubuntu automatically detects wndows, but most newer distros do. If not, it's easy enough to fix.
I am offered a catch-22 by my situation. I would be more then happy to install Ubuntu onto my existing first partition and then use the Grub bootloader to be able to load up my windows xp partition, however the first partition is too small! At 1.87gigs it is a few measly megabytes short of the required 2gigs of ubuntu, and the installation does not complete.
I am unable to resize my winxp partition from within the ubuntu live cd by using gparted because gparted will not shrink the xp partition due to an error and instead suggests I load up windows and run checkdisk. While it's fantastic that gparted told me what to do, it's not at all fun or amazing that I'm still unable to load up my windows xp partition.
So, I'm currently investigating the possibility of installing Grub alone onto the partition so that it might give me the option of loading up windows xp partition, however I am unsure if this is possible.
That's basically where I am, and I think I don't really have any other options at this point aside from:
a. figuring out some way to get a bootloader onto my existing 1.87gb partition so that I can boot up windows xp and it can run chkdisk on itself - OR
b. save the entire disk contents to a HDD through the network somehow and format the whole bugger.
<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" />
The difficulty of not being able to write to a permanent drive of any sort has certainly forced me to be somewhat... creative in my use of my computer.
Thankfully, I am still able to access my original WinXP partition's files, such as my Mp3s. However, it took some wrangling of this "Totem" movie player to download and "install" the required codecs needed to actually PLAY mp3s. (apparently, because mp3 is a proprietary software format, ubuntu can't offer their cd with the ability to read the file type? am I right? Something regarding the rules of open source software licensing and whatnot. Very complicated stuff.)
Anyway, the point is, it's a pain in the ass not having a hard drive.
(but an adventure!)
The difficulty of not being able to write to a permanent drive of any sort has certainly forced me to be somewhat... creative in my use of my computer.
Thankfully, I am still able to access my original WinXP partition's files, such as my Mp3s. However, it took some wrangling of this "Totem" movie player to download and "install" the required codecs needed to actually PLAY mp3s. (apparently, because mp3 is a proprietary software format, ubuntu can't offer their cd with the ability to read the file type? am I right? Something regarding the rules of open source software licensing and whatnot. Very complicated stuff.)
Anyway, the point is, it's a pain in the ass not having a hard drive.
(but an adventure!)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
(g)mplayer and VLC I found to be the best players on Ubuntu for video
As for music, I switched back and forth a lot between a bunch of em, Rhythmbox and XMMS are nice.
<img src="http://www.haroldboot.com.au/images/db_imgs/mt1_43d06bda77c5b.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Firstly, make a boot floppy or recovery cd for your ubuntu install, just in case.
Secondly, get some windows boot/repair disks ( from bootdisk.com )
Boot to dos and do fdisk/mbr
This will fix up your master boot record. At this point, windows should boot again, but not ubuntu.
Then if you make your ubuntu partition bootable, and install grub or lilo onto that partition, you should be able to load grub with a boot.ini entry on windows.
The mp3 issue has nothing to do with open source or licenses. It has to do with patents held by fraunhofer institute on the mp3 format, and ubuntu would have to pay them royalties if they supply the codec. Check out this guide for fixing up all your codecs for ubuntu:
<a href="http://ubuntuguide.org/wiki/Ubuntu:Feisty#codecs" target="_blank">http://ubuntuguide.org/wiki/Ubuntu:Feisty#codecs</a>
Firstly, make a boot floppy or recovery cd for your ubuntu install, just in case.
Secondly, get some windows boot/repair disks ( from bootdisk.com )
Boot to dos and do fdisk/mbr
This will fix up your master boot record. At this point, windows should boot again, but not ubuntu.
Then if you make your ubuntu partition bootable, and install grub or lilo onto that partition, you should be able to load grub with a boot.ini entry on windows.
The mp3 issue has nothing to do with open source or licenses. It has to do with patents held by fraunhofer institute on the mp3 format, and ubuntu would have to pay them royalties if they supply the codec. Check out this guide for fixing up all your codecs for ubuntu:
<a href="http://ubuntuguide.org/wiki/Ubuntu:Feisty#codecs" target="_blank">http://ubuntuguide.org/wiki/Ubuntu:Feisty#codecs</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That all sounds really great, really. It sounds like it would fix everything, and I tried my best to go along with that plan but certain things limited my ability to do so. They are the following:
Firstly, I have no floppy disk drive. I know, strange isn't it? But true, so any form of floppy-boot thing is of no value to me, very unfortunately.
Secondly, I have a copy of this "Ultimate Boot CD" Thing which seems to have a variety of utilities including fdisk-like operations which I used to run what is touted as "the equivalent" to fdisk /mbr
However, this did not solve my problem.
As you may or may not know, my hard drive is setup with the first partition being 1.87gigs in size. This tiny thing is what's considered by my computer to be the primary drive, the remaining 180 odd gigs is the virtual / logical / extended part of it containing my windows xp install along with all my stuff.
The fdisk /mbr command did not do anything for the first partition, simply saying when I attempted it that there was "Nothing to do" so it aborted. I then attempted to run the fdisk /mbr command on the second partition and then to attempt to just do a straight boot attempt from there. Neither attempt worked.
At the moment, the first partition is completely blank, save for anything that the fdisk /mbr did, and in the fat32 filesystem. My computer does not boot if I try to boot either the first or second partition.
(P.S. I use VLC media player on my windows install and simply love it. If and when I finally get ubuntu to install and this whole mess cleared up, VLC is the first thing I am installing.)
((p.p.s I have no current ubuntu install, so I have no idea what you mean when you tell me to back it up. Seriously.))
Actually, check this guide out. It appears that some of the advice I've given above is outdated now. I haven't dual booted since 2k, and apparently XP makes it a little more awkward.
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/epark/linux/grub-w2k-HOWTO.html" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/epark/linux/grub-w2k-HOWTO.html</a>
Actually, check this guide out. It appears that some of the advice I've given above is outdated now. I haven't dual booted since 2k, and apparently XP makes it a little more awkward.
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/epark/linux/grub-w2k-HOWTO.html" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/epark/linux/grub-w2k-HOWTO.html</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
While I really really appreciate the advice, I remain curious why you keep insisting that my linux partition / ubuntu install will no longer function if I heed you advice despite the fact that no linux partition or ubuntu install currently exist on any hard drives in my possession. The only partitions are a more or less empty 1.87gig fat32 partition on the front of the disk and the larger NTFS 180gig on the rest of the disk.
Again, I really appreciate the help, but it confuses the hell out of me when you talk about something that I do not have.
Okay, now to read that page about dual-booting. Man, I wish i had resized the freaking partition before rebooting... if it was more then 2 gigs this would NOT be an issue >_<
My plan now is to copy the entire drive's contents over my LAN to a HDD connected to another computer on the network, format my drive and install a dual boot ubuntu and win xp environment PROPERLY. And then move back appropriate files onto the xp partition, and spend the next week re-finding and re-installing various programs and applications that I cannot live without supposedly back onto windows, all the while enjoying my shiny new ubuntu.
my question: How to get ubuntu to recognize the windows-based network currently existing?
Honestly though, I think you could just install GRUB on the mbr and be ok (after a little configuring). You could also try <a href="http://gag.sourceforge.net/" target="_blank">GAG</a>, which is impressively easy and featureful as far as bootloaders go.
Honestly though, I think you could just install GRUB on the mbr and be ok (after a little configuring). You could also try <a href="http://gag.sourceforge.net/" target="_blank">GAG</a>, which is impressively easy and featureful as far as bootloaders go.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now when you say "Install Grub on the MBR" what do you mean exactly?
When I formatted the first partition I *think* I wiped out the MBR, right? And I know I wiped out the win98 operating system on that partition. So now when it attempts to boot there's nothing to boot, even if magic happens an an MBR appears on the first partition, it won't be able to do anything right because there is no OS on that partition? Does the MBR somehow see winxp on the second partition?
Because I *think* I somehow put an MBR on the first partition, and I *thought* that I used Super Grub Loader or something like it on this "Ultimate Boot CD" that said it attempted to boot from the second partition, however that did not work. It gave an error that had something to do with "This is not a system-file, reinstall your system file" or something to that effect. Unfortunately I cannot recall exactly what it said and the process to get it to give the error again would take about 15 minutes, and I would rather make this post before attempting it.
The real problem here I think, is that I've never really dealt with or understood what or how a bootloader works. I just never really needed to know, you know?
The trick is that we can install bootloaders into the MBR too, and modern bootloaders are usualy smart enough to handle extended partitions, so it will be able to launch ntldr from the extended partition's first sector.
Note: I'm a touch fuzzy on the boot process and had to verify some of this with WikiPedia. Theres a good chance some of this could be wrong. Either way, if I'm even close to right you can load GAG onto a floppy and set it up to boot the XP partition, then install it to the MBR later if you want.
The trick is that we can install bootloaders into the MBR too, and modern bootloaders are usualy smart enough to handle extended partitions, so it will be able to launch ntldr from the extended partition's first sector.
Note: I'm a touch fuzzy on the boot process and had to verify some of this with WikiPedia. Theres a good chance some of this could be wrong. Either way, if I'm even close to right you can load GAG onto a floppy and set it up to boot the XP partition, then install it to the MBR later if you want.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, I've already used Grub to try to do a manual boot of the second partition on the drive and that didn't work. In addition I do not actually have a floppy drive, but I should expect it might be possible to burn GAG onto a cd-r?
I have a few things which I think are bootloaders on a disc, however none of them seemed able to boot the winxp partition. I might have another go at it, however.
This did not work.
However I am convinced that progress has been made. I am now thinking perhaps that I may have done something bad to my windows xp install while I was poking around in an attempt to fix something that may not have been broken in the first place.
When I attempted to boot into the windows xp (second) partition, I was greeted only by a string of nonsensical characters including a small image of a spade. Like on a playing card. Basically I was greeted by what would happen if someone held down the ALT key and mashed at their numpad for a few minutes randomly.
What I assume this to mean is that I ****ed up windows xp's ability to boot somehow. Which is both a good and a bad thing.
Previously I had attempted to put in my windows XP cd and attempt to repair the system that way. I wasn't sure exactly what I was planning on doing but I heard using the winxp cd was helpful in cases like this. Even if that may be true, it did not help me as the windows install CD seemed entirely unable to recognize that I had a hard drive at all. Why this could be I have no idea, maybe because it is a SATA drive? I know that I had this issue when I initially attempted to install windows xp, however I cannot remember how I fixed it!
In addition, I am unfamiliar with any other way of repairing a corrupt/whatever boot loader for an operating system aside from using the install disc that comes with that operating system. Is there another way you guys can think of attempting to repair my windows xp boot-ability without using the win xp install disc? OR someway perhaps to get it to recognize the hard drive during install, so that it can attempt to repair?
In fact, I will look into that problem, I am sure other people have encountered it before and perhaps I can find some online documentation. In addition, I wonder if windows XP install cd has the ability to view and repair a windows install made on a secondary partition like mine is?
Who made computers so god damn complicated anyway?
Even something like Flashplayer appears to have a linux build, something which I had not at all thought of before hand.
I am eager to continue my experiment with linux/ubuntu as soon as my hard drive woes are resolved, and I am actually able to install the OS to disk and use it like an actual operating system.
The anticipation is murder.
I've tried a few different applications to modify my partition size to do just that. Gparted told me that my ntfs partition ,.. ah, well it had something to do with the clusters not performing correctly or something. This may have to do with the fact that I asked windows xp to run a very heavy-duty chkdisk upon next boot up. (the very bootup that caused these problems) or it may have to do with gparted being a linux thing and linux having issues with NTFS drives. ( I honestly don't know).
Basically gparted told me that there is something wrong with my ntfs partition and it can't resize it until I run chkdisk in windows. Which I can't do until I fix windows... which I can't do until i... <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" />
Catch-22.
I don't know if this paragon partition manager thing would work any better, but so far all of the petition modifiers I have used have been unable to shrink the xp partition.
Although this would appear to be a Very Bad Thing to an outsider, I am not particular worried because I can still see and read all of my files from within the ubuntu live cd OS environment. The NTFS partition is still intact and functioning 100% with all of my files looking to be in tip top shape. So I know the drive's not screwed, it seems to be just the boot thing.
That would be the problem yes. You can either enable IDE emulation for SATA in the BIOS (if it supports it) or Press F6 at the start of the installation screen to load the SATA driver from a floppy or CD.
I think your description of the boot problem supports my theory that ntldr is not installed on the XP partition. I will look into this some more.
Now if only I can get this floppy drive to work.
<img src="http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/3687/victorytk7.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
After our long and bitter struggle against the immoral oppression of our normal read-write operations. It is my distinct and prideful duty to inform you all, that we have last achieved our goals and vanquished the dark specter of inoperability from our 1's and 0's. This day, Saturday October 13th of the year of our lord two thousand and seven, will forever be known as our day of victory over this digital tyrant.
Gentlemen, ladies. We have won!
*que applause and cheering*
--
The situation was fixed by installing windows xp on the first partition and then modifying the boot config to list the second partition as a bootable option upon start up. Why the computer required an OS on the first partition in order to *successfully* load an OS on the second partition I honestly have no idea. Regardless, chkdisk has been run (successfully), and soon partion sizes will be altered, and FINALLY ubuntu will be installed on the first partition. I do wonder however, if the removal of NTLDR from the first partition and replacing it with ubuntu's stuff might cause my second partition to become unbootable again? God I hope not.
In any case, now is the time for post-victory de-briefing! All of you have your cigars, right? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
The MBR boot code can't load from an extended partition. What is happening is that your new XP installation has its very own boot code and NTLDR on its non-extended partition, the MBR is booting that, and that boot code is being used to boot the other partition. Unfortunately, assuming I'm correct, your old XP isntall WILL fail to boot after installing Ubuntu on that first partition. Unless somehow the old XP install's partition's boot sector has been repaired, then grub will probably boot it.
I could always try I suppose. After I increase the first partition size and put ubuntu on it, if windows xp then refuses to load I can then re-install win xp on the FIRST partition, allowing the second windows xp install to boot. Maybe I could then partition the drives again, giving ubuntu a slice on the back end of the HDD? Would ubuntu be bootable with Grub or Gag then?
I suppose I'll just try it and see.